rico Posted January 30, 2018 Author Report Share Posted January 30, 2018 3 minutes ago, HoosierFaithful said: I am utterly baffled as to how someone can say NBA teams dont "play the game the right way." The Pacers don't rely on "one on one" basketball. They move the ball, find the open man, and exploit weaknesses. Large portions of the game exists where every Pacer is a 3 point threat. Our C hit 4 last night. And that is normal! I sure as hell didn't say that. The fact is the game is just played differently today than yesterday. We can haggle about talent all we want to, but the game has changed and has been changing ever since it was invented. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IU Scott Posted January 30, 2018 Report Share Posted January 30, 2018 12 minutes ago, Hoosierhoopster said: Certainly people can see the game differently, based on their own preferences and context. You grew up watching the game played a certain way, and you prefer that, that's completely understandable. Do think we all tend to view what we prefer through rosy glasses, though. The 80's in particular had all kinds of drug issues in the NBA, players playing wacked out on coke and speed, players dying of overdoses, a "product" on the floor that included bloody fights fairly frequently, the infamous Rudy Tamjanovich punch, etc. Hey, I played hockey, I've been in multiple fights on and off the ice, but personally I much prefer a game where you will never see LeBron throw a punch, and the "product" emphasizes protecting the players and fans and broadening the audience to the casual fan, including kids. So while you're critiquing teams mailing it in, because there are 82 games (which I agree is too many) and the draft is set up to favor losing teams (although that's skewed, the big market teams continue to go over the cap and acquire the best players via trades), there were all kinds of problems with the NBA in the 80's, and, until they re-wrote the rules to prevent back-down isolation ball (remember Mark Jackson on the Pacers? Everyone would just stand around while he literally backed the ball into the post, that's not exciting ball), the game was less about movement and more about iso and a few stars. Now you have teams in the NBA that have completely rejuvinated the ball movement and sharing game, it started with the Spurs (no past team moved the ball better than the Spurs with Duncan, period), then Golden State, mostly a home grown team until the Durant acquisition (which I hate), has turned ball movement and outside shooting into an art form, and now you're seeing teams, really the whole League,.change to meet that challenge, the Celtics under Brad S (who is well on course to becoming one of the best NBA coaches, if he's not already demonstrated that), the Thunder's acquisition of PG to run with Westbrook with lock down defense paired with outside shooting, heck the Pacers acquisition of Vic and the floor-spreading he provides with the pick and roll game and outside shooting (and if you're a Pacers fan, how can you not like that?) is a clear improvement over the Mark Jackson - era back-down into the post game. Things change, that's not always a bad thing. The drug problem was more of a 70's issue than the 80's Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IU Scott Posted January 30, 2018 Report Share Posted January 30, 2018 On 1/30/2018 at 10:14 AM, HoosierFaithful said: I am utterly baffled as to how someone can say NBA teams dont "play the game the right way." The Pacers don't rely on "one on one" basketball. They move the ball, find the open man, and exploit weaknesses. Large portions of the game exists where every Pacer is a 3 point threat. Our C hit 4 last night. And that is normal! That is a problem, I don't want my 7 foot centers shooting mainly 3 point shots like turner does. I enjoy watching big men playing with their back to the basket and guys who have great post moves like McHale and Olguwan. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hoosierhoopster Posted January 30, 2018 Report Share Posted January 30, 2018 2 minutes ago, IU Scott said: The drug problem was more of a 70's issue than the 80's Both 70s and 80s - coke was the thing in the 80s Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IU Scott Posted January 30, 2018 Report Share Posted January 30, 2018 Just now, Hoosierhoopster said: Both 70s and 80s - coke was the thing in the 80s You were saying the Tomjanovich happened in the 80's but that was in the 70's. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rico Posted January 30, 2018 Author Report Share Posted January 30, 2018 Just now, Hoosierhoopster said: Both 70s and 80s - coke was the thing in the 80s And Len Bias says hello. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hoosierhoopster Posted January 30, 2018 Report Share Posted January 30, 2018 1 minute ago, IU Scott said: You were saying the Tomjanovich happened in the 80's but that was in the 70's. sure, 70's - 80's, when you were saying the game was better. again, you are certainly entitled to your opinion, and we all see the game in different ways and from different preferences, I'm just pointing out that there were plenty of problems in the game over that span, and then the 'rules' in the 80's - 90's had their own problems in terms of the product of the game. As for me, I liked the NBA in the 90's, but in terms of how the game is played now, I think it's better. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IU Scott Posted January 30, 2018 Report Share Posted January 30, 2018 Just now, Hoosierhoopster said: sure, 70's - 80's, when you were saying the game was better. again, you are certainly entitled to your opinion, and we all see the game in different ways and from different preferences, I'm just pointing out that there were plenty of problems in the game over that span, and then the 'rules' in the 80's - 90's had their own problems in terms of the product of the game. As for me, I liked the NBA in the 90's, but in terms of how the game is played now, I think it's better. I never said that the 70's were better but the 80's and 90's were better. In the 70's the playoffs were not even shown on live tv. I remember watching the finals on tape delay between the Bullets and Sonics. The NBA was in big jeopardy in the 70's and attendance was horrible mainly because of the fans thinking the players were thugs and druggies. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rico Posted January 30, 2018 Author Report Share Posted January 30, 2018 1 minute ago, Hoosierhoopster said: sure, 70's - 80's, when you were saying the game was better. again, you are certainly entitled to your opinion, and we all see the game in different ways and from different preferences, I'm just pointing out that there were plenty of problems in the game over that span, and then the 'rules' in the 80's - 90's had their own problems in terms of the product of the game. As for me, I liked the NBA in the 90's, but in terms of how the game is played now, I think it's better. I will call it fwiw, the NBA game in the 70's sucked. And to be honest Bird and Magic saved the league(my opinion). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rico Posted January 30, 2018 Author Report Share Posted January 30, 2018 And speaking of the 70's from the college stand point. There were some fine teams during that decade, a decade that saw UCLA's dominance come to an end. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IU Scott Posted January 30, 2018 Report Share Posted January 30, 2018 I say this discussion is why I love talking sports. People with different opinions who can discuss it back and forth to try to justify their opinion. It is just like we use to do sitting around with our friends discussing sports and we did not always view things the same way. Also I will bet the younger generation on here will be doing the something 25 years down the road trying to prop up you era of sports. Everything seems to better when you are looking back on things and you are being nostalgic about things when you were growing up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KoB2011 Posted January 30, 2018 Report Share Posted January 30, 2018 40 minutes ago, BGleas said: I've been to both as well, and am surprised on your opinion here. Most NCAA Tournament games are in cavernous stadiums with mix-matched fans because of the multiple games, and the arena is usually partially filled. Maybe I'm jaded because the NBA playoff games I've been to are Celtics games (sort of like a blueblood college basketball crowd), but the NBA playoff games I've been too the atmosphere has been amazing. Your heart is thumping because the crowd is so loud, you can hardly think because it's so loud. You're not jaded. I grew up on the 90s Pacers and went to a lot of playoff games. I've seen Conference Finals in Indy against Jordan and against LeBron, and the crowd was insane both times. Same with the Finals against the Lakers, there just isn't a comparison to playoff basketball with a good team. I've been to Pacers at Hawks when the Pacers where the 1 seed and Atlanta even showed out as an 8 seed. Don't get me wrong, the atmosphere isn't bad at the NCAAT, especially the later rounds, but it isn't the same. As you said, it's typically split among fan bases and it's just big stadiums that feel more sterile. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KoB2011 Posted January 30, 2018 Report Share Posted January 30, 2018 20 minutes ago, IU Scott said: That is a problem, I don't like is I don't want my 4 foot centers shooting mainly 3 point shots like turner does. I enjoy watching big men playing with their back to the basket and guys who have great post moves like McHale and Olguwan. I wouldn't bring up Myles Turner as an example of why basketball was better back in the day. He could hold his own just fine down low with those guys, not to mention the traps and schemes modern teams could throw at those guys, then he could pull them outside and own them. No, he doesn't have the post moves of those guys but if he played in the 80's they wouldn't have known how to stop him. And he's just a good NBA player, nothing great yet. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IU Scott Posted January 30, 2018 Report Share Posted January 30, 2018 3 minutes ago, KoB2011 said: You're not jaded. I grew up on the 90s Pacers and went to a lot of playoff games. I've seen Conference Finals in Indy against Jordan and against LeBron, and the crowd was insane both times. Same with the Finals against the Lakers, there just isn't a comparison to playoff basketball with a good team. I've been to Pacers at Hawks when the Pacers where the 1 seed and Atlanta even showed out as an 8 seed. Don't get me wrong, the atmosphere isn't bad at the NCAAT, especially the later rounds, but it isn't the same. As you said, it's typically split among fan bases and it's just big stadiums that feel more sterile. To me the spit in the crowd is what makes it so exciting to me because you have fans cheering for each team and the fan bases going against each other. Also if there is an underdog the other teams crowd gets into it and cheer for the upset. I was there in 96 when Princeton defeated the defending national champions in UCLA in the first round. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IU Scott Posted January 30, 2018 Report Share Posted January 30, 2018 3 minutes ago, KoB2011 said: I wouldn't bring up Myles Turner as an example of why basketball was better back in the day. He could hold his own just fine down low with those guys, not to mention the traps and schemes modern teams could throw at those guys, then he could pull them outside and own them. No, he doesn't have the post moves of those guys but if he played in the 80's they wouldn't have known how to stop him. And he's just a good NBA player, nothing great yet. He would not hold his own defensively because he still pretty weak and would have been eaten alive by Ewing, Robinson or Olguwaun. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rico Posted January 30, 2018 Author Report Share Posted January 30, 2018 I am still surprised nobody has commented on the impact the foreign players have had on the game. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KoB2011 Posted January 30, 2018 Report Share Posted January 30, 2018 1 minute ago, IU Scott said: He would not hold his own defensively because he still pretty weak and would have been eaten alive by Ewing, Robinson or Olguwaun. He definitely could get bigger, but he is actually as big as those guys. Unless you're saying he has a ton of fat, he's likely on par with them strength wise. He seems a little weak because guys today are a lot stronger.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cohete15 Posted January 30, 2018 Report Share Posted January 30, 2018 2 minutes ago, rico said: I am still surprised nobody has commented on the impact the foreign players have had on the game. I mentioned it back when this was part of the Romeo thread. The biggest difference between today and “yesterday” is the depth of talent. It’s from all over the world now. I made the analogy to baseball. Some pitchers in the 70s-80s-90s threw high 90s-100mph. Now it seems everyone throws high 90s. The Yankees bullpen runs out 4 guys throwing 97-103mph. 35 years ago, it was Nolan Ryan and maybe a couple other guys? So it’s not so much that “yesterday’s” greats couldn’t hang with today, but the lower competition couldn’t hang with today’s lower competition. Which, IMO, makes today a better generation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rico Posted January 30, 2018 Author Report Share Posted January 30, 2018 4 minutes ago, cohete15 said: I mentioned it back when this was part of the Romeo thread. The biggest difference between today and “yesterday” is the depth of talent. It’s from all over the world now. I made the analogy to baseball. Some pitchers in the 70s-80s-90s threw high 90s-100mph. Now it seems everyone throws high 90s. The Yankees bullpen runs out 4 guys throwing 97-103mph. 35 years ago, it was Nolan Ryan and maybe a couple other guys? So it’s not so much that “yesterday’s” greats couldn’t hang with today, but the lower competition couldn’t hang with today’s lower competition. Which, IMO, makes today a better generation. Very well said, and dead on. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IU Scott Posted January 30, 2018 Report Share Posted January 30, 2018 Another thing I feel that has changed the game for high school and college is the importance that is put on AAU basketball. To me AAU basketball is what I think that has hurt the kids with the fundamentals of the game. AAU basketball is more about getting seen instead of developing your game. People wonder why kids can't shoot free throws is that it is probably not emphasized in AAU basketball that much so they are not working on them during the summer. Also AAU has effected how teams recruit and now everything is done nationally instead of regionally. It is so easy to see every player in the country now so it is easier to get kids to go anywhere in the country. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NCHoosier32 Posted January 31, 2018 Report Share Posted January 31, 2018 don't even get me started on AAU. unfortunately it is only getting bigger. of course some AAU coaches and experiences are good, but so many help make the new bball society so wrong. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rico Posted January 31, 2018 Author Report Share Posted January 31, 2018 3 hours ago, NCHoosier32 said: don't even get me started on AAU. unfortunately it is only getting bigger. of course some AAU coaches and experiences are good, but so many help make the new bball society so wrong. Although I don't like the AAU scene myself I think it goes even deeper than that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NCHoosier32 Posted January 31, 2018 Report Share Posted January 31, 2018 6 hours ago, rico said: Although I don't like the AAU scene myself I think it goes even deeper than that. 100% agree. on the depth of good players today - i definitely agree with that as well. i think that is why we so many more huge upsets in the regular season. there are a lot of really good players out there who either can't get the grades, don't want to leave home, have off court troubles, or whatever that end up at smaller programs and can go off any night and beat a sleeping giant. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FKIM01 Posted February 1, 2018 Report Share Posted February 1, 2018 2 hours ago, NCHoosier32 said: 100% agree. on the depth of good players today - i definitely agree with that as well. i think that is why we so many more huge upsets in the regular season. there are a lot of really good players out there who either can't get the grades, don't want to leave home, have off court troubles, or whatever that end up at smaller programs and can go off any night and beat a sleeping giant. Interesting theory on upsets. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rico Posted February 1, 2018 Author Report Share Posted February 1, 2018 Another thing that I am surprised that hasn't come up is shoe companies and their power today that did not exist yesterday. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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