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Scott Rolen Elected to Baseball Hall of Fame


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22 minutes ago, rico said:

What cap will he wear?

They just asked him that on MLB network.  He is deferring that decision until he better understands the process.  He spoke highly of all 4 organizations.

All that said, my guess would be St. Louis

 

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36 minutes ago, Seeking6 said:

Couple things on Rolen. Very happy for him. Just a very normal humble Hoosier that I've met accidentally a couple of times near Lake Monroe. 

Now just for discussion. If Rolen is in....how can't Keith Hernandez, Dale Murphy be in? 

Rolen's WAR is significantly higher than either.

The comparison for Hernandez should not be Scott Rolen because of position played.  One of the toughest positions to play (3B) compared to arguably the easiest (1B).

The Hernandez argument should be made against guys like David Ortiz, Tony Perez, Orlando Cepeda, etc, whose advanced  stats (WAR, JAWS, etc) as first baseman (or DH) are similar or worse.

Murphy even has less if an argument.  He played a demanding position, but was a below average fielder.  There are literally 2 dozen or more centerfielders with better WAR and JAWS than Murphy who are not in the Hall.

 

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2 minutes ago, 5fouls said:

Rolen's WAR is significantly higher than either.

The comparison for Hernandez should not be Scott Rolen because of position played.  One of the toughest positions to play (3B) compared to arguably the easiest (1B).

The Hernandez argument should be made against guys like David Ortiz, Tony Perez, Orlando Cepeda, etc, whose advanced  stats (WAR, JAWS, etc) as first baseman (or DH) are similar or worse.

Murphy even has less if an argument.  He played a demanding position, but was a below average fielder.  His 2 MVP years stand out as outliers against his overall career numbers.  There are literally 2 dozen or more centerfielders with better WAR and JAWS than Murphy who are not in the Hall.

 

So guys like Grace, Hernandez...shoot even Don Mattingly who all had better numbers at the plate aren't in because of playing 1b? I mean Rolen hit .300 3x and Grace did it 9x.  Hernandez played same number of seasons but had more hits/walks/batting titles, gold gloves, World Series, less K's, better OPS,etc...

Like I said really happy for Rolen but some of these other guys (and I side with them) have far better numbers than Rolen. 

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9 minutes ago, Seeking6 said:

So guys like Grace, Hernandez...shoot even Don Mattingly who all had better numbers at the plate aren't in because of playing 1b? I mean Rolen hit .300 3x and Grace did it 9x.  Hernandez played same number of seasons but had more hits/walks/batting titles, gold gloves, World Series, less K's, better OPS,etc...

Like I said really happy for Rolen but some of these other guys (and I side with them) have far better numbers than Rolen. 

Position plays a role in offensive stat comparisons.  Same with Catchers and historically Shortstops, though that is changing.  

As a 1B, Hernandez does not stand out as a hitter.  He does have a legit argument when compared to say, Tony Perez. But, falls short against many other 1B.

But, Scott Rolen should be judged against  guys that played 3B.  And, the truth is that, compared to the 15 third basemen that preceded him to the Hall, Rolen has a slightly above average WAR and JAWS.  He makes up for borderline HOF- worthy offensive stats with elite defensive stats.  

Again, not saying Hernandez should not be in, but Rolen should not be his comp.

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3 hours ago, 5fouls said:

Position plays a role in offensive stat comparisons.  Same with Catchers and historically Shortstops, though that is changing.  

As a 1B, Hernandez does not stand out as a hitter.  He does have a legit argument when compared to say, Tony Perez. But, falls short against many other 1B.

But, Scott Rolen should be judged against  guys that played 3B.  And, the truth is that, compared to the 15 third basemen that preceded him to the Hall, Rolen has a slightly above average WAR and JAWS.  He makes up for borderline HOF- worthy offensive stats with elite defensive stats.  

Again, not saying Hernandez should not be in, but Rolen should not be his comp.

Well said. Molina won’t make it into the HOF because of his offense. His elite defense will be what gets him in. 

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7 hours ago, Seeking6 said:

Couple things on Rolen. Very happy for him. Just a very normal humble Hoosier that I've met accidentally a couple of times near Lake Monroe. 

Now just for discussion. If Rolen is in....how can't Keith Hernandez, Dale Murphy be in? 

I really like Rolen but he is not a HOFmer. I thought the HOF was for the best of best and not just the very good.

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49 minutes ago, IU Scott said:

I really like Rolen but he is not a HOFmer. I thought the HOF was for the best of best and not just the very good.

Look at the HOF roster.  There are a LOT of players less deserving than Rolen.  Once the precedent is set at a certain level, you cant keep out the next guy that comes through if he is better than those already elected.  

The fact is there are several 3B already in the Hall that are less deserving than Rolen.  

Look at it this way.  Every time there is a Griffey Jr, Mariano Rivera, or Mike Trout, should the Hall kick someone out?  

After all, when those guys get elected, it knocks guys like Kirby Puckett, Tony Perez, Peewee Reese, etc down a notch.  The level those guys were at in the hierarchy when elected is not the level they are at now.  Not close.  

You cant change the target after it's been set.

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1 hour ago, IU Scott said:

I really like Rolen but he is not a HOFmer. I thought the HOF was for the best of best and not just the very good.

It's a tough one anymore. It's like they'll have to have separate wings for the HOF. The legends on one side....and the other one's on other side. I've always said if someone asks you if they should be in the Hall of Fame and the person pauses before their reply....the answer is no. 

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6 minutes ago, Seeking6 said:

It's a tough one anymore. It's like they'll have to have separate wings for the HOF. The legends on one side....and the other one's on other side. I've always said if someone asks you if they should be in the Hall of Fame and the person pauses before their reply....the answer is no. 

Another thing I never understand is why they are on the ballot more than one year. It isn't like your stats gets better the longer you are on the ballot. You are either a HOF or you aren't. They shouldn't li.it how many in a certain class can get in.  You should be considered an elite ayer for your generation and lead the league in so e categories.

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12 hours ago, Seeking6 said:

It's a tough one anymore. It's like they'll have to have separate wings for the HOF. The legends on one side....and the other one's on other side. I've always said if someone asks you if they should be in the Hall of Fame and the person pauses before their reply....the answer is no. 

Is the Legend wing restricted to a certain number of players, let's say 35 for the sake of argument.  So, when Mike Trout gets elected, does he bump someone out of the Legend wing?

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@IU Scott

You prefer a 'Small Hall', which is your right.  That said, I'm not sure you appreciate the difficulty it is for the voters to make their decisions and keep it fair. The arguments for or against candidates with similar careers is not easy.

Is there a 'stat' that gets you in?  3,000 strikeouts for a pitcher used to mean you were an all-timer.  Now, it means you pitched for 15 years.  

What's more impressive?  500 home runs in today's game or 100 triples for someone that played in the 1920's?

I'm going to try and do this exercise in the next week, and encourage you, or anyone else that questions Rolen's induction to do the same.

Give me a Hall of 50 players. The elite of the elite.  And, then give me your 'first five out'.   In doing so, explain to me why you put in players 46-50 and left out 51-55.  Does player 50 get in over 51 because he has 2 more career doubles?

Basically, I'm asking that, if you are that passionate about it, back it up.  Show me how easy it is to determine the elite of the elite.

Like I said, I'll work over the next 7-10 days to put my list together and would like to see everyone else's

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13 hours ago, IU Scott said:

Another thing I never understand is why they are on the ballot more than one year. It isn't like your stats gets better the longer you are on the ballot. You are either a HOF or you aren't. They shouldn't li.it how many in a certain class can get in.  You should be considered an elite ayer for your generation and lead the league in so e categories.

Google the process.  You might get enlightened.

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33 minutes ago, 5fouls said:

Is the Legend wing restricted to a certain number of players, let's say 35 for the sake of argument.  So, when Mike Trout gets elected, does he bump someone out of the Legend wing?

No....you reduce one from the very good but we can't believe your in the Hall of Fame wing. Haha...

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Before Scott left for the minors he was at the little league fields behind my dad's house in Ireland signing autographs. I got my glove and a baseball signed. I wore the glove out but still have the ball. 

He had a high school friend with cerebral palsy.  He would send tickets so my dad could take his friend to some games. I think that started when he got to St Louis. 

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