HoosierDoc Posted December 16, 2018 Report Share Posted December 16, 2018 Instead of it being sprinkled in to other discussions and threads, I would love to have some good discussion on Smith's play (keeping it clean, please!). My take: - Smith's offensive awareness and decision-making drive me insane. He's just not a polished basketball player on the offensive end. Potential? Sure. Will he ever be able to utilize that potential? I hope so, but he's not doing it right now. When Justin has a plan of action (straight-line attacking the basket 90% of the time), there is no option B. He will either succeed, lose the ball, throw up a weak shot, or commit a charge. - Justin's rebounding is average. I know he had back-to-back 9 rebound games, but his season average is not great. I dont remember him pulling down many tightly contested rebounds. He's not bad by any means, but I don't think he's great either. - For defense, I'm going with above average. Justin doesn't let his opponent rack up big points. He does get beat off of the dribble relatively easily, and he tends to sag too far off when his defender is a good 3-point shooter. He doesn't excell in any one area on defense, but he also has no glaring weaknesses. So, where does that leave us? Do you want Justin starting for your team and being in there on crunch time? I want to say "NO", but when I look at our other options, I realize that Justin should fit into our lineup perfectly. Herein comes my biggest complaint. When we have Juwan, Romeo, and Rob in the game, we run the offense through Justin at WAY too high of frequency. Honestly, this should almost never happen. Justin needs to play hard-nosed D, hit the glass, cut hard, and take what the offense gives him. Open 3s, cutting dunks, putbacks, etc. Justin should not be taking the ball to the hoop off of the dribble, especially when we could have Romeo or Juwan do the exact same thing any posession we want. I'm going to put the bulk of this situation on Archie's shoulders. It's his job to get the most out of players, and I don't feel like he's doing that with Justin. I really hoped this type of play would end when Archie got here (Troy, Hollowell, Verdell etc). Archie has impressed me in many ways, and I really hope that he and Justin can work together to make Justin a great player. I say keep playing Justin like we are, but work hard to improve in the right areas. We'll be thankful in the future if this can happen (rather than benching him). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dobbsman Posted December 16, 2018 Report Share Posted December 16, 2018 I agree with everything above. i think CAM sees the potential and is therefore playing JS to develop him into exactly what you laid out. Clearly this is a work in progress, but benching him won’t help develop. I agree JS should be further developed by this point, but he needs to play to get there. If he does, this team becomes dangerous. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StLHoosier Posted December 16, 2018 Report Share Posted December 16, 2018 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
T-Free20 Posted December 16, 2018 Report Share Posted December 16, 2018 Is he another version of Troy Williams? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
13th&Jackson Posted December 16, 2018 Report Share Posted December 16, 2018 15 minutes ago, T-Free20 said: Is he another version of Troy Williams? I don't see it. They appear to be very different personalities. I believe Troy was trying to showcase skills for the next level and was showboating a bit. Justin appears to be playing too fast when he has the ball in his hands. He's much better, at this time, cutting to the basket and not having to make decisions with the ball. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FW_Hoosier Posted December 16, 2018 Report Share Posted December 16, 2018 I actually think Archie has done a great job managing Smith thus far. I think during a recent radio show, Archie said something to the effect of “when a player is struggling, you have to get him to focus on the things he’s doing well instead of the things he’s not doing well.” Smith was in a huge slump through his zero-point performance against Penn State. But Archie stuck with him, focused on his play on defense and on the boards in that game, and I think we’re starting to see that pay off. He still mostly sucks and plays way too soft/sloppy on offense, but he’s made some huge plays in big moments over the past two games. And he’s been very solid defensively and on the glass. I think our best 5 is Phinisee, Langford, Smith, Morgan, and one of Green/McBob, and that’s who’s been on the floor to close out these tough games. We’ve needed Smith, and he’s been starting to deliver. Props to Archie for helping him get out of his slump. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HoosierDoc Posted December 16, 2018 Author Report Share Posted December 16, 2018 50 minutes ago, T-Free20 said: Is he another version of Troy Williams? For me, Troy and Justin have a lot in common early in their careers. I feel like Justin (under Archie), however, has a good chance of developing some sound fundamentals. Troy (under CTC) was bound to be a loose cannon IMO. I am not a fan of Justin Smith's play currently, but I do have some faith in he and CAM moving forward. Fingers crossed! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NCHoosier32 Posted December 16, 2018 Report Share Posted December 16, 2018 oh boy. dangerous thread here! i'm just extremely frustrated because i thought this would be a breakout year for him and instead he seems to make all of the wrong decisions. no doubt that he needs to keep getting opportunity and i still think he'll come around, but i'm wondering about how it was suggested on another thread that he's not crazy about sharing the spotlight with a freshman? if that has anything to do with him pressing too much and making bad decisions, he'll lose my backing much more quickly. in the meantime, i'd love to see more minutes with him sitting and Davis playing. even Fitzner in some situations. still say we need better basketball out of that position and either Durham or Green. if we get that, we could be very very good. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zerawkid Posted December 16, 2018 Report Share Posted December 16, 2018 As far as running offense “through Justin,” I don’t see that being the case. Does he get touches? Sure. And, he had better, because he needs them to improve. When defining: running offense through a player, I believe it to mean that player will get a touch on nearly every possession he is in the game for, and the touch is expected to typically result in a score or an assist. Someone correct me if I am wrong. They keep going to Justin to see if he can really get on track. He’s definitely taken some steps from even a couple weeks ago, but he needs to continue to settle in, let the game come to him, and generally figure out how he can beat support the offensive philosophy and identity we are attempting to formulate. This offense, if the first several minutes of last night’s game are any indication, is still very much a work in progress. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Proud2BAHoosier Posted December 16, 2018 Report Share Posted December 16, 2018 All I'll say is, he wasn't playing soft around the rim on the dunk towards the end of the game...... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FKIM01 Posted December 16, 2018 Report Share Posted December 16, 2018 I love Justin's potential and at times, he shows what he is capable of. If we could get that level of play consistently, Justin has the ability to be amazing. Miller wants to win and I think he's a good gauge of talent so there are obviously positives he sees in Justin's game worthy of the minutes he gets. I completely understand the frustration over the lack of consistency here, but no, he should not be shoved out. He's literally a third of the way through his college career. There's plenty of time for him to figure it out and be a very valuable part of the rotation. On the other hand, if he doesn't figure it out, eventually Archie will look else where for production. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hoosierhoopster Posted December 16, 2018 Report Share Posted December 16, 2018 Personally, I think FKIM01's post is the reasonable one here. With Justin, the expectations, and impatience, are probably driven by the flashes he showed last season as a frosh. Expectations are high. That's a good thing, generally. Until people start writing a guy off or opining he should play less based on 11 games into his soph season, and despite: 1. He's the third leading scorer on the 4th most FG attempts (2 less than Rob, and overall shooting stats: 8.3 ppg (91 total points), 49% FG. 2. He's the third leading rebounder (tied for 2nd in offensive boards with Romeo), and 3rd in steals, while being 4th in minutes 3. He's only taken 5 3's, but hit 2 (40%). (He'll need to develop his outside shot) 4. He has 25 TO's -- but so does Morgan, and Romeo has 27 5. He's shown strong overall D including when taking on the other team's best scorer. Again, he's just 11 games into his frosh season. Way ahead of where Wat was at the same time defensively. 6. He has elite athleticism. His speed-of-the-game understanding is not there yet for him to take full advantage of that. When it does get there, watch out. He has played well overall in the last couple of tough games in particular Louisville: 4-8 for 9 points and 9 boards, 2 assists, 0 TO's Butler: 3-6 (1-1 from the arc) for 7 points, 4 boards (did have 3 TO's) I think his 'promise' will grow into a strong overall game with time and experience -- That CAM has trust in him should speak volumes Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Drroogh Posted December 16, 2018 Report Share Posted December 16, 2018 With all the lofty expectations some have, if he met them he'd be going pro next year. Personally I'd like to see him back! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NotIThatLives Posted December 17, 2018 Report Share Posted December 17, 2018 I think there was summer charter that he might be a draft sleeper this year. That may be the biggest disappointment but he is trending positively as of late. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Muckraker Posted December 17, 2018 Report Share Posted December 17, 2018 Freddy McSwain 2.0. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hoosierhoopster Posted December 17, 2018 Report Share Posted December 17, 2018 he’s Much better than Freddie Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Muckraker Posted December 17, 2018 Report Share Posted December 17, 2018 Freddy was MUCH better after one year under Archie, than when he arrived. I don't think he developed at all for Crean. Smith seems to have regressed from where he was at the end of last year. I don't expect to see Justin Curry out there. I just want to see a player that looks like he learned something from his last game, from the recent practices, and is ready, willing and able to put what he has learned into practice in games. So far I'm not seeing anything of the sort. L'm not giving up on him, but I hope CAM starts to explore other options. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IowaHoosierFan Posted December 17, 2018 Report Share Posted December 17, 2018 My Thoughts. 1. His hands suck. Lets me honest. The has horrible hands. Loses the ball going up to much, and loses passes way to often off his hands. 2 For a guy with is vertical and athletic ability, he is weak around the rim. And he is a big strong looking kid. 3. His defense is a bit above average. He is decent guarding on the block or when someone is trying to drive or back down to the basket. He is a horrible 3 point defender and gets lost to easily if his guys moves to much. 4. Much like others we have had int he past, his TOs are very untimely. It seems when he makes a mistake, its at the worst possible time. (I admit this could just be my opinion on this and i have no stats to back this up) 5. He shouldn't be a starter with the way his play is currently. We just don't have anyone to play of his size. I will finish by saying i really like the upside that Smith has. I just wish he would find it. And soon. If he was averaging 17 a game like Romeo and Morgan, the 25 TOs wouldn't be as big an issue. Scoring, like winning, beats its all Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HoosierDoc Posted December 17, 2018 Author Report Share Posted December 17, 2018 19 hours ago, zerawkid said: When defining: running offense through a player, I believe it to mean that player will get a touch on nearly every possession he is in the game for, and the touch is expected to typically result in a score or an assist. Someone correct me if I am wrong. I was thinking more along the lines of running half-court possessions through him, not the entire game. When we are swinging the ball around the perimeter, if nothing is given to us by the defense, someone has to initiate. Rob or Romeo can drive, Juwan can post up etc. I'm not against Justin taking shots, I just don't think he should be our first point of attack. Heck, even when he has an open lane to the basket, there's a good chance a defender can slip in helpside to draw a charge. Some players should be opportunistic scorers (Fitz, McRoberts, Smith, Durham) while some should look to initiate the offense (Juwan, Romeo, Rob, and occasionally DD or Green). Archie should keep Smith in the former category during important games at this point (in my opinion, of course). By next year, or even the end of this year, I would love for him to be able to initiate well. For now though, yikes... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HoosierDoc Posted December 17, 2018 Author Report Share Posted December 17, 2018 17 hours ago, Hoosierhoopster said: 4. He has 25 TO's -- but so does Morgan, and Romeo has 27 Your other points offer a fair perspective, but this one must be elaborated on IMO. TOs per (adjusted to include trips to the line) FGA shows Romeo turning the ball over at a rate of 15% of his attempts. Juwan turns it over on 18%, and Justin on 30%. It could be calculated based on ppg instead of fga and the results would be similar. Factoring in assists makes it even worse. Justin turns the ball over at twice the rate of Romeo/Juwan per FGA, but he's also 3 times more likely to turn the ball over instead of earning an assist. Romeo and Juwan are 1:1 on A:T ratio, while Justin is 1:3. (FWIW, Devonte is 36%, Durham 18%, Phinisee 23%, Davis 28%, Fitz 14% - Fitz and Phin are a bit skewed IMO because of how little Fitz handles the ball and how often Phin handles the ball per shot). Stats never tell the whole story, but you seemed to imply that he turns the ball over in a similar fashion to Juwan and Romeo, which just isn't true. When factoring in FGA, points, assists, and TOs, I would wager that Justin is 2-3x more likely to turn the ball over per touch compared to those two. Still, I say keep Justin in the starting unit and utilize him a bit differently until he can be coached up more. We need Justin to be the player than he can be, and I know Archie is going to help him to achieve that potential. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rico Posted December 17, 2018 Report Share Posted December 17, 2018 I am going to chime in on this one after chewing on it for awhile. For the most part, I agree with everything that has been stated. But I look at the landscape at IU and in future years. Right now is when Justin needs to be shining. His PT may in fact be due to Race and Jerome being out. Think about that for awhile. He has to do the best with the opportunity that is at hand. If and when Race comes back how will that affect Smith's minutes? If and when Jerome comes back how will that affect Justin's minutes? If and when Race and Jerome together come back, how that affect him? Now look to next year. Jerome and Race will be here. Add to it the possibility of landing Brooks. Where does that put Justin? The kid needs to amp it up while he has the chance. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
T-Free20 Posted December 17, 2018 Report Share Posted December 17, 2018 18 hours ago, Hoosierhoopster said: Personally, I think FKIM01's post is the reasonable one here. With Justin, the expectations, and impatience, are probably driven by the flashes he showed last season as a frosh. Expectations are high. That's a good thing, generally. Until people start writing a guy off or opining he should play less based on 11 games into his soph season, and despite: 1. He's the third leading scorer on the 4th most FG attempts (2 less than Rob, and overall shooting stats: 8.3 ppg (91 total points), 49% FG. 2. He's the third leading rebounder (tied for 2nd in offensive boards with Romeo), and 3rd in steals, while being 4th in minutes 3. He's only taken 5 3's, but hit 2 (40%). (He'll need to develop his outside shot) 4. He has 25 TO's -- but so does Morgan, and Romeo has 27 5. He's shown strong overall D including when taking on the other team's best scorer. Again, he's just 11 games into his frosh season. Way ahead of where Wat was at the same time defensively. 6. He has elite athleticism. His speed-of-the-game understanding is not there yet for him to take full advantage of that. When it does get there, watch out. He has played well overall in the last couple of tough games in particular Louisville: 4-8 for 9 points and 9 boards, 2 assists, 0 TO's Butler: 3-6 (1-1 from the arc) for 7 points, 4 boards (did have 3 TO's) I think his 'promise' will grow into a strong overall game with time and experience -- That CAM has trust in him should speak volumes Good points, but he's not a freshman, he's a sophomore. I think the sentiment is that he would have taken a bigger jump in year two and so far we just haven't seen it yet. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
addictedtoIU Posted December 17, 2018 Report Share Posted December 17, 2018 I, too, criticized Smith for some time because of my own expectations on him, but people need to give him a little space. I believe he can play better, but right now he looks a bit stiff and may be a bit too cautious and unsure, which means he needs development and experience. And he's getting the amount of playing time because... (1) he earned it (2) he's currently the best option at the position for the lineup we're using. Probably the combination of these two. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IowaHoosierFan Posted December 17, 2018 Report Share Posted December 17, 2018 16 minutes ago, addictedtoIU said: I, too, criticized Smith for some time because of my own expectations on him, but people need to give him a little space. I believe he can play better, but right now he looks a bit stiff and may be a bit too cautious and unsure, which means he needs development and experience. And he's getting the amount of playing time because... (1) he earned it (2) he's currently the best option at the position for the lineup we're using. Probably the combination of these two. I agree with #2 but explain how he earned the right to start for Indiana Basketball? Scoring? Lock down defense? High Rebounding or Assist ratio? Hustle? Heart? Leadership? None of these things define Justin. I like the kid. And last year at the end he was playing loose and cocky. This year, it seems the ball just bounces off his hand or threw them or he is running someone over. Do we have a better option. Probably not. McBob has taken a step backwards and isn't looking bob like. Moore, Forester, Fitz and Anderson are liabilities at this point too. We could play small with Al and Green but Green has a more horrendous turnover per minute than Smith. Al has good games but isn't the size you want. So we have Smith, with a ton of potential with almost no production. He does have good moments but the whole body of work is lacking at this point, and its going to cost us a game or two this year if they don't get it figured out. And none of my criticism is at all aimed personally at Justin Smith. Good kid and i hope he does great things. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hoosierhoopster Posted December 17, 2018 Report Share Posted December 17, 2018 28 minutes ago, IowaHoosierFan said: I agree with #2 but explain how he earned the right to start for Indiana Basketball? Scoring? Lock down defense? High Rebounding or Assist ratio? Hustle? Heart? Leadership? None of these things define Justin. I like the kid. And last year at the end he was playing loose and cocky. This year, it seems the ball just bounces off his hand or threw them or he is running someone over. Do we have a better option. Probably not. McBob has taken a step backwards and isn't looking bob like. Moore, Forester, Fitz and Anderson are liabilities at this point too. We could play small with Al and Green but Green has a more horrendous turnover per minute than Smith. Al has good games but isn't the size you want. So we have Smith, with a ton of potential with almost no production. He does have good moments but the whole body of work is lacking at this point, and its going to cost us a game or two this year if they don't get it figured out. And none of my criticism is at all aimed personally at Justin Smith. Good kid and i hope he does great things. Ask CAM. You think CAM is just throwing him into the starting lineup? Again he's 3rd in scoring, 3rd in rebounds, 3rd in steals, and who starts etc. is determined first in practice and then in game performance. CAM is starting him. Of course he's earned it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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