NBA Thread

[FKIM01]

1 hour ago, BGleas said:

I'll never understand people that love basketball but don't like the NBA? Honestly, the last 10-12 years or so, the NBA playoffs for the most part have been phenomenal in terms of both story-lines and drama. I know it seems like LeBron (Heat/Cavs) and the Warriors have dominated as forgone conclusions, but both the Pacers and Celtics took LeBron's Heat and Cavs teams to 7-game series in the East and GS was taken 7 by OKC and Houston in recent years. We've had 3 7-game NBA Finals over the last 9 years, plus the drama that was the Mavs and Spurs beating LeBron's Heat, as well as a little mini renewal of the Celtics/Lakers rivalry as they met twice in the Finals. 

I grew up on the Celtics/Lakers of the 80's and the beauty at which those teams executed offensively, but I still say that if someone asked me to show them an example of how basketball should be played I'm throwing in the tape of the Spurs beating the Heat 4-1 in 2014. It was just an amazing display of team basketball by the Spurs. 

I don't love all the 3 attempts in the game now, so I understand that criticism, but otherwise the NBA has largely been awesome for the past 12 or so years. 

No question the players are incredibly talented.  Here are the recent complaints I've heard, some of which I share, some are just common beliefs that I don't necessarily agree with, but seem to be widely-held...

1. The games seems "scripted".  Even if a team is down 20, they will often come back and make it a really close game, if not win it.  Blowouts are uncommon even if a team jumps out to a huge lead. I don't necessarily agree with this but I've heard the NBA described in similar terms as pro wrestling (scripted).
2. The tendency to take plays off.  The effort, while at times intense, is not uniform.  Players like Hardin and LeBron at times look like they don't even care about defense. (kinda agree with this one)
3. Too many Russell Westbrooks and not enough Thomas Bryants.  Everyone has a chip on their shoulder and act like they're too cool to show joy and excitement.  Some act downright surly in interviews...just no decorum. (personally,  I realize the frustration of being asked a dumb question, so I'd give several passes here, although at times, some players just seem to be acting like intentional jackasses).
4. Big market vs. small market and star treatment perception.  Maybe officiating is just that bad, but there's a perception that winners and losers are picked before the playoffs are even started. (likely untrue, but I can see why people think this)
5. (somewhat related) Poor officiating/ignoring many calls that could be made such as traveling/palming/carrying.  At times, just like in college, a LOT of contact is ignored. (about 50/50 on this one, personally)

That's just off the top of my head, but those are things I commonly hear from people who don't like the pro game.  My personal view is that their's likely some truth and some fiction in those five, but it does shed light on why people don't like the pro game.  I'll always love a game that has Victor Oladipo in it.  He's such a great ambassador of the game.  If everyone played that hard with the off-court demeanor he has,  I think the game would be more popular. (Not that I'm saying it's unpopular now.)

[BGleas]

1 hour ago, FKIM01 said:

No question the players are incredibly talented.  Here are the recent complaints I've heard, some of which I share, some are just common beliefs that I don't necessarily agree with, but seem to be widely-held...

1. The games seems "scripted".  Even if a team is down 20, they will often come back and make it a really close game, if not win it.  Blowouts are uncommon even if a team jumps out to a huge lead. I don't necessarily agree with this but I've heard the NBA described in similar terms as pro wrestling (scripted).
2. The tendency to take plays off.  The effort, while at times intense, is not uniform.  Players like Hardin and LeBron at times look like they don't even care about defense. (kinda agree with this one)
3. Too many Russell Westbrooks and not enough Thomas Bryants.  Everyone has a chip on their shoulder and act like they're too cool to show joy and excitement.  Some act downright surly in interviews...just no decorum. (personally,  I realize the frustration of being asked a dumb question, so I'd give several passes here, although at times, some players just seem to be acting like intentional jackasses).
4. Big market vs. small market and star treatment perception.  Maybe officiating is just that bad, but there's a perception that winners and losers are picked before the playoffs are even started. (likely untrue, but I can see why people think this)
5. (somewhat related) Poor officiating/ignoring many calls that could be made such as traveling/palming/carrying.  At times, just like in college, a LOT of contact is ignored. (about 50/50 on this one, personally)

That's just off the top of my head, but those are things I commonly hear from people who don't like the pro game.  My personal view is that their's likely some truth and some fiction in those five, but it does shed light on why people don't like the pro game.  I'll always love a game that has Victor Oladipo in it.  He's such a great ambassador of the game.  If everyone played that hard with the off-court demeanor he has,  I think the game would be more popular. (Not that I'm saying it's unpopular now.)

I appreciate the response and I have heard many of those same things over time as well. Some thoughts on the points you mentioned.

1. 48 minutes is a long game and the players are so talented. So when a team jumps out to a big lead, it's just numbers that the team missing a lot of shots is eventually going to get hot within the course of a game and come back. Also, this happens in college all the time. There's tons of times during a college season where a team goes up 10-20 points in the first 10 minutes and then by the last 5 minutes of the game it's a 5-pt game. Happens all the time.

2. This I can't really push back on. It's just a fact that the NBA season is a long season and you're traveling for 5-10+ days at a time (albeit with top-notch accommodations) playing back-to-backs, etc.. It takes a toll on the body and the mind. I saw this first-hand so I tend to give NBA players a break on it sometimes. I've been on road trips where we landed in Boston at 2:30am after playing in another city and then had a home game the next night. These guys beat up their bodies for 7-9 months, so I sort of get taking plays offs. Also, how many times have we complained about IU guys not playing hard? So, this one happens in college as well, probably for different reasons though. But, again I get what you're saying. That 11+ minute video from a couple years ago of Harden's bad defensive plays was insane.

3.  I don't really get the Thomas Bryant part, but on your general point I think the NBA has had maybe the best run of any professional sport the last 10-15 years in terms of the likability of their stars. Yeah, they complain in the media and they don't always handle social media great, but name me a star in the NBA the last 10 years that's gotten in trouble with the law or had any off-the-court scandals? Outside of Kobe Bryant's legal issue which was almost 20 years ago, the current crop and the aging crop of NBA stars have been pretty clean and all seem like good guys. They do a ton in the community, etc. At the same time, they're playing in the most scrutinized era in terms of media and fan access. 

4. I can't debate against star treatment, there's no doubt in the NBA that stars get away with way more than other players and they draw fouls way more than other players. The Big Market/Small Market stuff I don't buy as much, but compared to college that would be the same as the Blue Blood vs. little guys thing. Do the Lakers have advantages compared to the Kings? Absolutely. But Duke has advantages compared to Wake Forest in college. Milwaukee is currently a 1 seed. Portland and Denver are playing in the conference semi's. Over the last 10 years San Antonio has been to 2 Finals, OKC has been to the Finals, Orlando has been there and Cleveland went to 4 straight. 

5. There is a lot to complain about in terms of NBA officiating (believe me, I can start that thread 😀), but NBA refs are infinitely better than NCAA refs. NCAA refs are the worst!  

I appreciate you bringing those points up, for me this is a fun discussion. I realize everyone likes what they like and everyone has a right to their opinion, but sort of what you alluded to is that I think a lot of the gripes against the NBA are perception, not really reality. I happen to be someone that loves college basketball and the NBA, but I always enjoy this discussion. 

Edited May 6, 2019 by BGleas

[BGleas]

2 hours ago, Hoosierhoopster said:

Couldn't like this enough. 

And this season's playoffs is off the charts with the competitive play and underlying story lines -- and all without LeBron, which is kind of wild.

It's been great to watch. This might be the best conference semi round ever. 

[IU Scott]

5 hours ago, BGleas said:

I'll never understand people that love basketball but don't like the NBA? Honestly, the last 10-12 years or so, the NBA playoffs for the most part have been phenomenal in terms of both story-lines and drama. I know it seems like LeBron (Heat/Cavs) and the Warriors have dominated as forgone conclusions, but both the Pacers and Celtics took LeBron's Heat and Cavs teams to 7-game series in the East and GS was taken 7 by OKC and Houston in recent years. We've had 3 7-game NBA Finals over the last 9 years, plus the drama that was the Mavs and Spurs beating LeBron's Heat, as well as a little mini renewal of the Celtics/Lakers rivalry as they met twice in the Finals. 

I grew up on the Celtics/Lakers of the 80's and the beauty at which those teams executed offensively, but I still say that if someone asked me to show them an example of how basketball should be played I'm throwing in the tape of the Spurs beating the Heat 4-1 in 2014. It was just an amazing display of team basketball by the Spurs. 

I don't love all the 3 attempts in the game now, so I understand that criticism, but otherwise the NBA has largely been awesome for the past 12 or so years. 

Well I have tried and tried to watch the playoffs but I just get bored and turn it to something else.  Like you I grew up watching the NBA and loved it especially watching the Lakers and Celtics.  To me and only my opinion but to me pro sports are getting more and more sterile and to me there are not many characters in sports any longer.  It seems like they want everything to be the same and try to get everything perfect and take the human element out of the game.

Since the Pacers been eliminated I have only watched a few minutes here and there but have not watched a whole game.  I use to stay up late watching the Western conference playoffs and remember watching the games on tape delay late at night but have really no desire for the NBA ay longer.

[BGleas]

3 hours ago, IU Scott said:

Well I have tried and tried to watch the playoffs but I just get bored and turn it to something else.  Like you I grew up watching the NBA and loved it especially watching the Lakers and Celtics.  To me and only my opinion but to me pro sports are getting more and more sterile and to me there are not many characters in sports any longer.  It seems like they want everything to be the same and try to get everything perfect and take the human element out of the game.

Since the Pacers been eliminated I have only watched a few minutes here and there but have not watched a whole game.  I use to stay up late watching the Western conference playoffs and remember watching the games on tape delay late at night but have really no desire for the NBA ay longer.

You’re missing out. The playoffs have been fantastic. 

[BADGERVOL]

I’m liking my Bucks still

[Zlinedavid]

Bucks are making Bahston look less than good.

And is it me, or is this team Harry Carey's nightmare? Antetomounmpo. Ilyasova. Mirotic. Connaughton. There aren't that many consonants in a can of alphabet soup.

[Hoosierhoopster]

I don’t think Kyrie will be in Boston next year, and that’s better for Boston. He is not a guy who can take a team to a championship. 

[Hoosierhoopster]

EJ is putting on a clinic tonight. He looks like the pre-injury EJ. His burst and strength to the rim is impressive 

[BGleas]

6 minutes ago, Hoosierhoopster said:

I don’t think Kyrie will be in Boston next year, and that’s better for Boston. He is not a guy who can take a team to a championship. 

He has been atrocious. After the game he actually said he should have been more selfish and that 22 shots wasn’t enough for a player as talented as his. I really hope he goes to the Knicks. 

 

[Hoosierhoopster]

1 minute ago, BGleas said:

He has been atrocious. After the game he actually said he should have been more selfish and that 22 shots wasn’t enough for a player as talented as his. I really hope he goes to the Knicks. 

 

He’s so about getting his, and while playing poorly, it’s awful. Boston is better than this, addition by subtraction, or addition by replacement, he needs to go

[BADGERVOL]

Kyrie after game three and going 8-22 “you won’t see another 8-22 game from me.”

He was correct...he went 7-22

🤦🏻‍♂️

[BADGERVOL]

2 hours ago, Hoosierhoopster said:

He’s so about getting his, and while playing poorly, it’s awful. Boston is better than this, addition by subtraction, or addition by replacement, he needs to go

What can they get for him though? That’s the trick...but I agree 100%. Idk what the heck team would want him. 🧐

[NotIThatLives]

6 hours ago, BADGERVOL said:

What can they get for him though? That’s the trick...but I agree 100%. Idk what the heck team would want him. 🧐

Huh?  He's a top 20 player.  He'll get a max contract and have a ton of offers but likely he's going to Knicks as has been leaking for about 5 months.  

He's an unrestricted free agent.  

[IU Scott]

10 hours ago, BGleas said:

You’re missing out. The playoffs have been fantastic. 

Not to me I am not because I have seen a lot of bad basketball

[IU Scott]

7 hours ago, BADGERVOL said:

What can they get for him though? That’s the trick...but I agree 100%. Idk what the heck team would want him. 🧐

Kyrie is a free agent after this season but I agree I would not want him on my team

[BGleas]

7 hours ago, BADGERVOL said:

What can they get for him though? That’s the trick...but I agree 100%. Idk what the heck team would want him. 🧐

Like HH said, addition by subtraction. He’ll walk as an unrestricted free agent. 

[BGleas]

50 minutes ago, IU Scott said:

Not to me I am not because I have seen a lot of bad basketball

What I don't get when college fans say this about the NBA is that the vast majority of college games are terrible in terms of the play on the court. I love college basketball, but what makes college basketball great for the most part is the pageantry, the rivalries and the atmosphere, most of the time the games are actually pretty bad. Is it really good basketball when Wisconsin beats Rutgers 63-56 and both teams shoot around 40% from the field? 

[IU Scott]

8 minutes ago, BGleas said:

What I don't get when college fans say this about the NBA is that the vast majority of college games are terrible in terms of the play on the court. I love college basketball, but what makes college basketball great for the most part is the pageantry, the rivalries and the atmosphere, most of the time the games are actually pretty bad. Is it really good basketball when Wisconsin beats Rutgers 63-56 and both teams shoot around 40% from the field? 

I guess we will have to agree to disagree on this subject.  I also don't understand why people who really like the NBA act so defensive when someone says that they don't really enjoy the NBA game.

[BGleas]

1 minute ago, IU Scott said:

I guess we will have to agree to disagree on this subject.  I also don't understand why people who really like the NBA act so defensive when someone says that they don't really enjoy the NBA game.

You don't think most college games are bad basketball? I only get defensive on it when I find the reasoning to be based more in perception than reality, which I find is usually the case with people that like college basketball and slam the NBA.

Not saying that is you, I understand you just don't like the NBA game from a stylistic standpoint. 

[IU Scott]

21 minutes ago, BGleas said:

You don't think most college games are bad basketball? I only get defensive on it when I find the reasoning to be based more in perception than reality, which I find is usually the case with people that like college basketball and slam the NBA.

Not saying that is you, I understand you just don't like the NBA game from a stylistic standpoint. 

Yes in my mind I like the college game better as well as the high school game.  I don't have to have the best and most athletic players to be playing to enjoy the game.  I would rather watch Wofford play Belmont than watch any NBA game.  To me watching Houston Rockets play is the worst team to ever watch because to me that is not what basketball is all about.  I will watch all the Pacers games through November but once college basketball starts I will usually watch a college game over the Pacers every night.

[NotIThatLives]

Silver looking into shortening the length of the season to me is relevant to this conversation you guys are having mostly from a continual effort standpoint that teams will be putting into each game making each game more valuable.

http://www.nba.com/article/2019/04/13/adam-silver-2019-board-governors-meeting

[IU Scott]

4 minutes ago, NotIThatLives said:

Silver looking into shortening the length of the season to me is relevant to this conversation you guys are having mostly from a continual effort standpoint that teams will be putting into each game making each game more valuable.

http://www.nba.com/article/2019/04/13/adam-silver-2019-board-governors-meeting

I think the perfect number is around 50-60 games.  The one year after a strike the season was 50 games long at to me that was about the right amount of games.  I also think they need to shorten the layoffs as well because I don't think it should take 2.5 months to play the playoffs  If I was in charge of the NBA I would contract 6 teams because I think the rosters right now is watered down with talent.  We have to many teams where you are lucky to have a couple of really good players and the talent is to dispersed unless you are a team that can get multiple superstars to come to your team.

I look at a team like the Pacers who right now are stuck in the middle where they are to good to get high draft picks but not good enough to compete for a championship.

[NotIThatLives]

16 minutes ago, IU Scott said:

I think the perfect number is around 50-60 games.  The one year after a strike the season was 50 games long at to me that was about the right amount of games.  I also think they need to shorten the layoffs as well because I don't think it should take 2.5 months to play the playoffs  If I was in charge of the NBA I would contract 6 teams because I think the rosters right now is watered down with talent.  We have to many teams where you are lucky to have a couple of really good players and the talent is to dispersed unless you are a team that can get multiple superstars to come to your team.

I look at a team like the Pacers who right now are stuck in the middle where they are to good to get high draft picks but not good enough to compete for a championship.

Great point on that strike-shortened season. It would also cause more pause on players resting during the regular season because each game would be more valuable.

[IU Scott]

9 minutes ago, NotIThatLives said:

Great point on that strike-shortened season. It would also cause more pause on players resting during the regular season because each game would be more valuable.

We all know it won't happen because they won't want to give up the money.  If they shorten the season you know they will increase the cost of tickets so they can make up the money they will lose by shortening the season.