NBA Thread

[DC2345]

1 hour ago, dwtaylor1055 said:

With how the Pacers front office and owners are operating, the only way to get big name guys(PG/Victor/Sabonis) is either through the draft or get lucky in a trade(See PG trade).  We all know the Pacers history with drafts, mostly the last oh I dunno say 10 years have been short of average in terms of a return each year IMO with the exception of Myles Turner, Aaron Holiday(after 3 years IMO we can safely determine if this pick was good or not), etc.  

 

Now you need to spend money to win, plain and simple.  OR get lucky and hit on a draft class and get great talent on cheap contracts and sprinkle around some very good veterans and an all star or two, aka Miami.  The Simons need to spend some extra money then be content a few million short of entering the luxury tax or salary cap limit and being content with consistent playoff appearances year in and year out while having 1st rd exits every year.  

 

I do not think the Pacers should offer Vic a max contract.  I love Vic and always will, however, more times than not he's a volume scorer, 4 or 5 boards per game and 3 or 4 assists per game at best.  Yes he brings heart, energy and solid defense, however, factoring all of that into the equation plus a max contract at say $33 mil or whatever it is, that is setting a team/franchise up for failure.  If Vic goes, I think you need to build around Sabonis, Warren, Brogdon and Aaron Holiday.  You'll get decent assets in return for Vic, heck maybe even a 1st rd pick.  

 

All I am saying, as a 7 going on 8 year season ticket holder for the pacers it's the same thing every year.  1st rd exits come playoff time.  Roll with Brogdon/Warren/Sabonis/Holiday, sprinkle in your returns from flipping Vic and Myles(oh I dunno 2 1st rd picks) and add some solid vets to the squad and I think we are right back at a 4 seed.    

The Pacers if they want could add Gordon Hayword this offseason or next. I think he could get back to all star form when he isn't the 4th or 5th option. Word is he is open to coming home. He is building a house in Fishers currently as well. Other than him the Pacers have got to find ways to get draft picks or young players and actually develop those players which Nate McMillan refused to do. To go with that my prediction for this coming year is that if the right coach is hired TJ Leaf will become an impactful bench stretch 4 at least. Nate never gave him any time to develop and it showed. 

[Artesian_86]

 Me too Rico,.....Me too! Reggie set the bar for being a model NBA player in a small market, mid west team like the Pacers. He loved and represented our state and Pacers so well,... you would have never thought he was from California and attended UCLA. He was more about winning and getting the Pacers respected among the league's best. Social media and money have become like a "Whispering Satan" on the shoulders of many of today's elite players. 

[dwtaylor1055]

7 minutes ago, DC2345 said:

I get that and pretty much ever person who has said the Celtics have interest in trading for Turner and giving up Hayword has said the Celtics would have to include draft capital or young assets. That said it's all speculation at this point and as many as 10 teams or more are interested in Turner alone. 

draft capital will matter going into the following years so including picks will impact cap space to some extent.  

 

IF there are truly 10 teams with interest in Myles this is good news.  Should be able to net something good in return

[NotIThatLives]

7 minutes ago, DC2345 said:

I get that and pretty much ever person who has said the Celtics have interest in trading for Turner and giving up Hayword has said the Celtics would have to include draft capital or young assets. That said it's all speculation at this point and as many as 10 teams or more are interested in Turner alone. 

I can imagine a bunch of teams are interested in Myles and Vic.  The question is the return.  vic coming off injury and averaging 14.5, he just isn't going to get the return you would really hope for.  

Myles, as we all know has his strengths and weaknesses.  Maybe in the right system with the right complimentary pieces he can be himself.  I remember he was taking ballet or yoga or something, he has tried so hard to improve quickness to guard on the wing and be a true stretch four.  Maybe the pacers find someone to bite big but I think the fear and overall consuming thought is, because we know these guys better than many of the national writers, the returns won't be great.  

[dwtaylor1055]

1 minute ago, DC2345 said:

The Pacers if they want could add Gordon Hayword this offseason or next. I think he could get back to all star form when he isn't the 4th or 5th option. Word is he is open to coming home. He is building a house in Fishers currently as well. Other than him the Pacers have got to find ways to get draft picks or young players and actually develop those players which Nate McMillan refused to do. To go with that my prediction for this coming year is that if the right coach is hired TJ Leaf will become an impactful bench stretch 4 at least. Nate never gave him any time to develop and it showed. 

I saw the news about Hayward building a house in Fishers and that he's open to playing at home.  I agree that Nate never allowed talent to develope.  Niang is a small sample size, rotational player off of the bench for the Jazz this year, maybe Leaf could turn into that, however, I am not getting my hopes up about this.  I think Goga takes a big step forward this upcoming season.  

 

I'd welcome Gordon, he'd start at the 3.  So lets assume Vic and Myles are gone you have Aaron/Brogdon/Hayward/Warren/Sabonis(yes I have Aaron here as both he and Brogdon can switch both PG and SG positions).  Right now your bench is McConnell(if option is picked up)/Lamb/McDerrmott/Leaf/Goga.  Now I think you can improve your bench via trades through Vic and Myles.  Net a vet SG in return that can start, slide Aaron back to the bench and then go find a stretch 4 vet.  Allow for draft pick players in either trade to develop and may strike gold if we can get a first rd pick from each trade involving Vic and Myles.  If we could somehow poach Jarret Culver away from Minny in a trade for Vic I'd be estatic.  I think Culver can be a tough 2 way SG/SF.  

[DC2345]

1 minute ago, NotIThatLives said:

I can imagine a bunch of teams are interested in Myles and Vic.  The question is the return.  vic coming off injury and averaging 14.5, he just isn't going to get the return you would really hope for.  

Myles, as we all know has his strengths and weaknesses.  Maybe in the right system with the right complimentary pieces he can be himself.  I remember he was taking ballet or yoga or something, he has tried so hard to improve quickness to guard on the wing and be a true stretch four.  Maybe the pacers find someone to bite big but I think the fear and overall consuming thought is, because we know these guys better than many of the national writers, the returns won't be great.  

I think you'll be surprised. The national guys are getting their information from somewhere. 

[DC2345]

4 minutes ago, dwtaylor1055 said:

I saw the news about Hayward building a house in Fishers and that he's open to playing at home.  I agree that Nate never allowed talent to develope.  Niang is a small sample size, rotational player off of the bench for the Jazz this year, maybe Leaf could turn into that, however, I am not getting my hopes up about this.  I think Goga takes a big step forward this upcoming season.  

 

I'd welcome Gordon, he'd start at the 3.  So lets assume Vic and Myles are gone you have Aaron/Brogdon/Hayward/Warren/Sabonis(yes I have Aaron here as both he and Brogdon can switch both PG and SG positions).  Right now your bench is McConnell(if option is picked up)/Lamb/McDerrmott/Leaf/Goga.  Now I think you can improve your bench via trades through Vic and Myles.  Net a vet SG in return that can start, slide Aaron back to the bench and then go find a stretch 4 vet.  Allow for draft pick players in either trade to develop and may strike gold if we can get a first rd pick from each trade involving Vic and Myles.  If we could somehow poach Jarret Culver away from Minny in a trade for Vic I'd be estatic.  I think Culver can be a tough 2 way SG/SF.  

Minny is a team I could see interested in Vic. If you get Culver that's great. As for Hayword if we trade Turner for him then either Lamb or McDermott will have to be included to match salary and then their will need to be other rotation players added to the bench. I also think Justin Holliday should be brought back for the bench as well if possible. 

Edited October 1, 2020 by DC2345

[dwtaylor1055]

3 minutes ago, DC2345 said:

Minny is a team I could see interested in Vic. If you get Culver that's great. As for Hayword if we trade Turner for him then either Lamb or McDermott will have to be included to match salary and then their will need to be other rotation players added to the bench. I also think Justin Holliday should be brought back for the bench as well if possible. 

Salary works for Vic for Culver and say James Johnson(PF bruiser) would probably have to add say as future 1st rd lottery protected pick since Culver is still so young.  That solves a SG position and small ball backup PF.  

 

As far as Myles goes, maybe Houston makes sense?  Eric Gordon and Robert Covington for Myles and Doug.  

 

I think Justin returns which is nice.  

[DC2345]

Vic has finally commented on the trade talk. He stated on his instagram that "I'm a Pacer" and that he doesnt know where the rumors originated from. 

[ATX_sig]

Actually either VO or Turner make sense for Dallas. Turner is from Dallas and has played summer with some of the Mavs.  Mavs have picks 18 and 31. I don't think there is huge difference in the players at those picks. Mavs would certainly prefer to trade 31 because they would not have to use 1.5 mil of the MLE to sign that pick which seems to have become the standard. Turner and Sumner for 31 and THJ?

The Spurs have DeRozan and Turner would be a good fit there if DeRozan would do a S&T to Indy.  The Spurs have young players in place to replace DeRozan. 

 

[dwtaylor1055]

18 minutes ago, DC2345 said:

Vic has finally commented on the trade talk. He stated on his instagram that "I'm a Pacer" and that he doesnt know where the rumors originated from. 

Interesting all of the rumors are flying around. 

[dwtaylor1055]

11 minutes ago, ATX_sig said:

Actually either VO or Turner make sense for Dallas. Turner is from Dallas and has played summer with some of the Mavs.  Mavs have picks 18 and 31. I don't think there is huge difference in the players at those picks. Mavs would certainly prefer to trade 31 because they would not have to use 1.5 mil of the MLE to sign that pick which seems to have become the standard. Turner and Sumner for 31 and THJ?

The Spurs have DeRozan and Turner would be a good fit there if DeRozan would do a S&T to Indy.  The Spurs have young players in place to replace DeRozan. 

 

problem with Dallas for Myles is Porzingis is already there.  Both play same positions, both are similar players(Myles is better defensively).  Don't think they'll move on from the Unicorn considering they just gave him a max deal or very close to it  

Edited October 1, 2020 by dwtaylor1055

[DC2345]

1 minute ago, dwtaylor1055 said:

Interesting all of the rumors are flying around. 

At least he did his best to squash them. He said he's focused on staying in the background, working out, continue with his rehab, and get right for next season.

[dwtaylor1055]

1 minute ago, DC2345 said:

At least he did his best to squash them. He said he's focused on staying in the background, working out, continue with his rehab, and get right for next season.

true unlike PG(maybe he did, I cannot remember or he danced around the rumors).  

[DC2345]

1 minute ago, dwtaylor1055 said:

true unlike PG(maybe he did, I cannot remember or he danced around the rumors).  

PG didn't. He did however lie to Pritchard and say he wanted to stay and then a week later demanded a trade. This is a whole different situation. 

[dwtaylor1055]

6 minutes ago, DC2345 said:

PG didn't. He did however lie to Pritchard and say he wanted to stay and then a week later demanded a trade. This is a whole different situation. 

Very True.  Maybe this holds true and he stays a Pacers so I'd be more curious what we'd get for Myles in return.

Edited October 1, 2020 by dwtaylor1055

[ATX_sig]

9 minutes ago, dwtaylor1055 said:

problem with Dallas for Myles is Porzingis is already there.  Both play same positions, both are similar players(Myles is better defensively).  Don't think they'll move on from the Unicorn considering they just gave him a max deal or very close to it  

I don't necessarily agree they can't co-exist well.   KP is a fantastic defender.  That was my biggest surprise once seeing him every day.    Having them both would be really good for a team that isn't very good defensively. Of course a lot of that is due to perimeter defense.  I worry about VO becoming a FA and his injury recovery but he also would make a lot of sense. 

Seems turner can provide 3 point range but I don't watch enough of the Pacers (15 or so games) like I do the Mavs (most every game)to know if turner is any good in the PnRs. Seems like he struggles to catch the ball and finish but maybe I just saw a game where he struggled. KP does look like he is going to have to need Load Management over his career so there is some backup there when KP is out.  The Mavs current starting center is powell who is great in the PnR but struggles to hit 3's and nowhere near the defender of Maxi, Turner or KP.  KP was improving in the PnR aspect of his game. I think Luka attacking the basket with both KP and turner's ability to shoot 3's would work well. It does when Maxi and KP play together.  I would of put powell in the deal but I doubt that makes with him coming off achilles injury. Maxi might sense but he such a Mavs fan favorite. Being a Mavs fan I don't like to put him in deals but sometimes you have to. 

Best of all the Mavs have a HOF coach who can adjust to his players. 

[5fouls]

12 hours ago, dgambill said:

I think football suffers the most without fans. I mean no crowd noise to make it not nearly as difficult for opposing offenses. It makes a huge difference. Can you imagine Peyton playing with no crowd noise being able to audible easily at will?? Viewing wise baseball suffers a ton. Playoff baseball you can feel the crowd on the edge of their seat, roaring for a hit, strike out, you can almost feel like you are there. Basketball has always been pretty sterile as far as the nba goes for me. Half the time the music is so loud I couldn’t even talk with my friend/wife at the game. It gets loud too don’t get me wrong but I don’t think it really effects the game much...probably officials more than players.
Viewing wise most basketball and football shots are close/tight shots on the action. Baseball you see empty behind the catcher, the dugout, every foul ball, home run...so all in all I think basketball loses the least...and yet people don’t want to tune in...I think we all know why...it’s the most vocal of all of the professional sports with messaging.

Even looking beyond the NBA, basketball needs something to energize the moment.  Why do people that would not miss a regular season UNC/Duke game with Dickey V screaming on the mic,  not watch the conference tournament championship of the Patriot league?  Even with my favorite team, IU, there is a huge difference being in Assembly Hall than there is watching it on TV.  Basketball on TV needs something artificial to build the tension, at least for me.

By contrast, While I was supposed to be working yesterday afternoon, I was instead riveted to the TV following the Reds/Braves scoreless marathon.  Even without fans, I found the action to be just as intense as it would have been if the stands would have been full.  Basketball, not just the NBA, does not do that for me.

Your point on the NFL is valid as it relates to impacts on the game.  But, I was talking more in terms of viewability.  For me, the lack of a crowd does not impact my viewing of the NFL.  it does impact my viewing of the NBA for the reasons stated above.

[dwtaylor1055]

42 minutes ago, DC2345 said:

PG didn't. He did however lie to Pritchard and say he wanted to stay and then a week later demanded a trade. This is a whole different situation. 

Actually PG did say the following:

 

"I'm under contract as a Pacer" he said.  "That's all that needs to really be known.  I'm here.  I'm a Pacer.  Again, what I have been dealing with is stories.  You guys talking or teams talking.  I'm a Pacer.  There is no way around that.  THis is my team, my group and this is where I'm at".  

[cybergates]

5 minutes ago, dwtaylor1055 said:

Actually PG did say the following:

 

"I'm under contract as a Pacer" he said.  "That's all that needs to really be known.  I'm here.  I'm a Pacer.  Again, what I have been dealing with is stories.  You guys talking or teams talking.  I'm a Pacer.  There is no way around that.  THis is my team, my group and this is where I'm at".  

Sounds unfortunately similar to what VO said with just more details (writing on the wall looking back).

[IU Scott]

21 minutes ago, 5fouls said:

Even looking beyond the NBA, basketball needs something to energize the moment.  Why do people that would not miss a regular season UNC/Duke game with Dickey V screaming on the mic,  not watch the conference tournament championship of the Patriot league?  Even with my favorite team, IU, there is a huge difference being in Assembly Hall than there is watching it on TV.  Basketball on TV needs something artificial to build the tension, at least for me.

By contrast, While I was supposed to be working yesterday afternoon, I was instead riveted to the TV following the Reds/Braves scoreless marathon.  Even without fans, I found the action to be just as intense as it would have been if the stands would have been full.  Basketball, not just the NBA, does not do that for me.

Your point on the NFL is valid as it relates to impacts on the game.  But, I was talking more in terms of viewability.  For me, the lack of a crowd does not impact my viewing of the NFL.  it does impact my viewing of the NBA for the reasons stated above.

I watch the Patriot league championship

[Hoosierhoopster]

13 hours ago, dgambill said:

I feel like the Pacers have opened up the check book for their stars over the years. I think they were their best bringing in guys when Donnie Walsh was there (imo). They also always fielded competitive teams and guys like playing for that.
Then the nba landscape changed....players instead of wanting to carry a team or be the man switched to wanted to play with their friends/join up. Well the Pacers first off didn’t have that “guy” to get people to want to come...(PG ain’t Lebron or Steph or Kobe or Wade etc) second off as a small market couldn’t pay enough stars (going over the cap) to afford multiple stars anyways. Finally Indy is pretty much considered the boringness NBA city by players. It’s not exactly black friendly in nightlife, food faire, or social scene. Getting a star to relocate to live there is difficult...it isn’t a destination much less one you can convince multiple people to come to. 
All that and now the players are the way they are now...not wanting to stick it out on their own and all want to be buddy buddy with each other instead of like Butler who is like “f yall” I hate you and I want to kill ya and I want to play with guys that have guts (feels like he is the only one like that at least). Players are so different. Entitled and Indy just don’t mix. We will have to get lucky with good draft picks and a couple good trades and piece something together....but I won’t hold my breath....Milwaulkie has a once in a generation talent and they aren’t even getting to the finals...as small markets go they have everything you can want. I won’t sweat losing Vic. Loved him but he ain’t Gianis. Losing him won’t sink us.

Your view here is slanted. First, fwiw, on PG you just ignored that Kawhi specifically demanded PG to the Clips as his requirement for joining the Clips. No, PG is not LBJ, no one is, but no also, arguably the best player in the League demanded PG, and only PG (no other named star), be on the team for him to go to that team. That should tell you something.

Agree about Walsh generally, he was overall quite good. Man he made a mistake in going to the Knicks. But second, on the landscape changing, yes it changed to give more power to players over the years, but that started a long time ago. Really the Celtics putting together the team with Rondo, Pierce, Garnett et al. Was that guys wanting to play with their friends? No, it was stars being put together to create a Big 3. It's not just a bunch of buddies teaming up, it's the Big 3 (or Big 2 -- the Lakers) approach -- building a team around 2-3 mega stars. It's not just a bunch of friends, buddy buddy stuff. Calling players entitled and buddy buddy just misses the point man. That's just not it.

Third, the small market thing only goes so far. San Antonio is a small market. The Bucks, small market. Frankly Golden State is basically a small market team. You absolutely need good draft picks to start -- Golden State killed it, the Spurs killed it -- but you also need management to build around the stars that you picked well in the draft. Again, Golden State and San Antonio killed it. Their management is top flight. The Bucks got enough around Greek Freak to have the best overall reg season record, but the holes in their depth of elite players showed in the playoffs. They're still a work in progress and they may very well lose Giannis.

The Pacers? they did well with getting Vic and Sabonis, but now once again they're already losing a star in Vic. That's not the way you build a real contender. Management absolutely should be questioned. For that matter, they stuck with a mediocre coach until just now. Now they've fired him. Hopefully that's a step in the right direction.

[IU Scott]

3 minutes ago, Hoosierhoopster said:

Your view here is slanted. First, fwiw, on PG you just ignored that Kawhi specifically demanded PG to the Clips as his requirement for joining the Clips. No, PG is not LBJ, no one is, but no also, arguably the best player in the League demanded PG, and only PG (no other named star), be on the team for him to go to that team. That should tell you something.

Agree about Walsh generally, he was overall quite good. Man he made a mistake in going to the Knicks. But second, on the landscape changing, yes it changed to give more power to players over the years, but that started a long time ago. Really the Celtics putting together the team with Rondo, Pierce, Garnett et al. Was that guys wanting to play with their friends? No, it was stars being put together to create a Big 3. It's not just a bunch of buddies teaming up, it's the Big 3 (or Big 2 -- the Lakers) approach -- building a team around 2-3 mega stars. It's not just a bunch of friends, buddy buddy stuff. Calling players entitled and buddy buddy just misses the point man. That's just not it.

Third, the small market thing only goes so far. San Antonio is a small market. The Bucks, small market. Frankly Golden State is basically a small market team. You absolutely need good draft picks to start -- Golden State killed it, the Spurs killed it -- but you also need management to build around the stars that you picked well in the draft. Again, Golden State and San Antonio killed it. Their management is top flight. The Bucks got enough around Greek Freak to have the best overall reg season record, but the holes in their depth of elite players showed in the playoffs. They're still a work in progress and they may very well lose Giannis.

The Pacers? they did well with getting Vic and Sabonis, but now once again they're already losing a star in Vic. That's not the way you build a real contender. Management absolutely should be questioned. For that matter, they stuck with a mediocre coach until just now. Now they've fired him. Hopefully that's a step in the right direction.

San Antonio did it mainly through the draft and got the #1 pick twice.  They also were lucky that both times that there was a once in a generation talent wiating there to be picked.

[DC2345]

1 hour ago, dwtaylor1055 said:

Actually PG did say the following:

 

"I'm under contract as a Pacer" he said.  "That's all that needs to really be known.  I'm here.  I'm a Pacer.  Again, what I have been dealing with is stories.  You guys talking or teams talking.  I'm a Pacer.  There is no way around that.  THis is my team, my group and this is where I'm at".  

Similar yes but there is a difference and it's the most important. Vic was still in the building and working in the weight room as recently as yesterday. That said he could still be on the move if the front office sees it's the right move. 

Edited October 1, 2020 by DC2345

[dwtaylor1055]

15 minutes ago, DC2345 said:

Similar yes but there is a difference and it's the most important. Vic was still in the building and working in the weight room as recently as yesterday. That said he could still be on the move if the front office sees it's the right move. 

Agree 100%, similar situation but still some difference amongst the two situations.