NBA Thread

[Hoosierhoopster]

3 hours ago, dgambill said:

Maybe it’s slanted...might be because I took the rose colored glasses off. If you don’t think the players have changed from the Birds, Magic’s, and Jordan eras and before to what we have now...so be it. Not going to argue because we will never agree.

Oh I admit the draft is intimately important...we haven’t done well at all. SA has done wonderful...especially identifying diamonds in the rough and identifying international talent. GS took huge risks in their drafts and they basically all paid off. Draymond a powder keg but his ability to play the 5 and be like a point forward, Steph who was small and had numerous injury concerns eventually worked out but many thought his slight build and bad ankles almost ended his career. The real key was signing Iggy imo. We will see if Milwaulkie can do anything with Gianis. I think he will stay. Seems foreign born players aren’t as focused on the limelight as much as a winning organization. 
As far as PG goes..I can’t change your mind on him and I’m not going to try. I never heard he was Khawis first choice...news to me. If he was what you think he is then why would the Pacers not keep him...if he is a superstar you take the chance and keep them and throw the moon and stars at him. Same with OKC. Both have now moved on from him. Now we hear LA is having some buyers remorse...I’m not surprised. A team is made up of more than just a stat line. It’s clear there is a lot under the surface. Imo there have always been empty stars in the NBA....guys that fill a stat sheet, make big money, but don’t equate to winning time. He is on that list for me. When he leads a team to a championship you can tell me to eat crow...until then I’ll stick to my opinion as slanted as it is.

We do agree the Pacers need to change it up. I don’t think it’s Pritchards fault. Simon has limited him. Doesn’t want to spend doesn’t want to go through a rebuild because he doesn’t want empty seats...so we will win just enough games to get into the playoffs and milk the fans but never give them a chip.

Lol man PG left the P’s and Thunder not the other way around, both teams tried to keep him - of course - I hope you were kidding otherwise you’ve been living under a rock, lol. He did just have his worst playoffs by far, and with doc’s ouster there’s pretty clearly disfunction in Clipper land. I would be shocked if they traded him though, those one man fed rumors look ridiculous to me. If Woj were to say something that would be worth listening to. The current “chatter” is bs 

Absolutely agree it’s not Pritch’s fault, he’s done very well, and agree it’s the owners, before Pritch it was Bird who gutted the team, and it has also been the mediocre coaching. Building the team and the lack of it was Bird and the owners. 

[dwtaylor1055]

Bird left Pritchard to clean up his mess.  Simon is content with yearly 1st rd exits, spending just enough money to get at the salary cap and putting fans in the seat. Did PG want to leave sure, however, it’s ownerships fault 💯 this time. Now for Vic and the current situation only time will tell. 
 

Pritchard is taking action(during Nate, asking players their opinions on what they want to see in their next coach, etc), however, did he wait to long with Nate? We shall see(my mom opinion is yes). Whoever this next coach is will be key. If it’s D’Antoni we’re playing small ball and you can all but guarantee Myles is gone so we operate with one Center. If it’s someone else, maybe it works with Sabonis and Myles who knows. 

[Billingsley99]

Active coaching streak with consecutive winning seasons.

Doc Rivers 13

Billy Donovan  5

Brad Stevens  5

[rico]

I don't care what the Pacers do, I just want a title.

[dwtaylor1055]

D'Antoni to have 2nd interview with Pacers.  

Also, like we have heard for the last 3 or 4 years, Jrue Holiday linked as a trade candidate to the Pacers.  Not sure he fits here assuming Vic stays.  Vic would need to be traded for Jrue to make his way to Indy so assume Vic is trade(not sure where) and My guess would be Indy would send Myles and Doug to Pelicans for Jrue and their 1st rd pick for this year.  Jrue is listed at "SG" but can play both PG and SG.  

[DC2345]

1 hour ago, dwtaylor1055 said:

Bird left Pritchard to clean up his mess.  Simon is content with yearly 1st rd exits, spending just enough money to get at the salary cap and putting fans in the seat. Did PG want to leave sure, however, it’s ownerships fault 💯 this time. Now for Vic and the current situation only time will tell. 
 

Pritchard is taking action(during Nate, asking players their opinions on what they want to see in their next coach, etc), however, did he wait to long with Nate? We shall see(my mom opinion is yes). Whoever this next coach is will be key. If it’s D’Antoni we’re playing small ball and you can all but guarantee Myles is gone so we operate with one Center. If it’s someone else, maybe it works with Sabonis and Myles who knows. 

You're wrong about some of that. I know Pritchard said it was his decision but there were to many people saying that Simon was tired of first round exits and wanted Nate gone. If the Pacers would be close to a championship I suspect Simon would pay the tax for a year or maybe two but the roster hasn't been to that point. 

[DC2345]

2 hours ago, dwtaylor1055 said:

D'Antoni to have 2nd interview with Pacers.  

Also, like we have heard for the last 3 or 4 years, Jrue Holiday linked as a trade candidate to the Pacers.  Not sure he fits here assuming Vic stays.  Vic would need to be traded for Jrue to make his way to Indy so assume Vic is trade(not sure where) and My guess would be Indy would send Myles and Doug to Pelicans for Jrue and their 1st rd pick for this year.  Jrue is listed at "SG" but can play both PG and SG.  

That is to be expected that D'Antoni would get a second interview. That said I haven't seen it reported anywhere. I would expect the final 5 or 6 candidates who get second interviews to include D'Antoni, Billups, Ham, Bjorkgren, and (Quinn or Craig or maybe both).

Dave Joerger and Chris Finch are also in the mix. Woj just called Joerger a strong candidate in the process. 

Edited October 2, 2020 by DC2345

[OGIUAndy]

https://twitter.com/wojespn/status/1312018322788057089?s=20

Pacers are meeting candidates this week and next, a roster of interviews that so far has included former Grizzlies/Kings coach Dave Joerger and Pelicans assistant Chris Finch, sources tell ESPN. Joerger is a strong contender in process. Chauncey Billups gets a sit-down soon too.

Edited October 2, 2020 by OGIUAndy

[dwtaylor1055]

1 hour ago, DC2345 said:

You're wrong about some of that. I know Pritchard said it was his decision but there were to many people saying that Simon was tired of first round exits and wanted Nate gone. If the Pacers would be close to a championship I suspect Simon would pay the tax for a year or maybe two but the roster hasn't been to that point. 

I saw reports of Simon tired of first round exits as well, however, this has been more recent then say when they went to the ECFs with PG, West, Hibbert, etc in 2012/2013.  Simon has said he would be willing to spend, however, the chances of that happening is very slim if you don't consistently hit on your first rd draft picks and navigating away from injuries(can't predict or prevent these like Indy has seen in recent years dating back to Danny G) so there has been no reason to spend money if you miss on talent in 1st rd or cannot develop the talent you draft(this team should have never let Vogel leave).    Yes they have signed free agents ala David West, Monte Ellis(WOOF), Bojan(good signing), etc.  Brogdon I am not including cause we shipped draft picks out for him.  So David West is our best Free Agent signing in the last dozen years or so I'd say.  

Simon has not went into the luxury tax to try and get to a title.  12-13 and 13-14 they went to the ECF and lost both times(they hit on their recent drafts ala Hibbert, PG, Lance and spent money on West, Scola and traded for George Hill on draft night.  They could have been one player away from beating Lebron and the Heat had they spent a little more in free agency to help the bench.    

Edited October 2, 2020 by dwtaylor1055

[dwtaylor1055]

1 hour ago, DC2345 said:

That is to be expected that D'Antoni would get a second interview. That said I haven't seen it reported anywhere. I would expect the final 5 or 6 candidates who get second interviews to include D'Antoni, Billups, Ham, Bjorkgren, and (Quinn or Craig or maybe both).

Dave Joerger and Chris Finch are also in the mix. Woj just called Joerger a strong candidate in the process. 

Not big on the Joerger signing, his track record is not very good.  First two years were good with Memphis but after that woof

Edited October 2, 2020 by dwtaylor1055

[DC2345]

2 minutes ago, dwtaylor1055 said:

I saw reports of Simon tired of first round exits as well, however, this has been more recent then say when they went to the ECFs with PG, West, Hibbert, etc in 2012/2013.  Simon has said he would be willing to spend, however, the chances of that happening is very slim if you don't consistently hit on your first rd draft picks and navigating away from injuries(can't predict or prevent these like Indy has seen in recent years dating back to Danny G) so there has been no reason to spend money if you miss on talent in 1st rd.    Yes they have signed free agents ala David West, Monte Ellis(WOOF), Bojan(good signing), etc.  Brogdon I am not including cause we shipped draft picks out for him.  So David West is our best Free Agent signing in the last dozen years or so I'd say.  

Simon has not went into the luxury tax to try and get to a title.  12-13 and 13-14 they went to the ECF and lost both times(they hit on their recent drafts ala Hibbert, PG, Lance and spent money on West, Scola and traded for George Hill on draft night.  They could have been one player away from beating Lebron and the Heat had they spent a little more in free agency to help the bench.    

I wouldn't go into the luxary tax either if the team wasn't close to title contention which they really haven't been. 

[dwtaylor1055]

1 minute ago, DC2345 said:

I wouldn't go into the luxary tax either if the team wasn't close to title contention which they really haven't been. 

well I wouldn't either but there was a 3 year stretch that they were close and he chose not too. 11/12, 12/13 and 13/14

[DC2345]

3 minutes ago, dwtaylor1055 said:

well I wouldn't either but there was a 3 year stretch that they were close and he chose not too. 11/12, 12/13 and 13/14

That was also Larry in charge then too who didn't ever look to make any kind of splashy move.

[dwtaylor1055]

2 minutes ago, DC2345 said:

That was also Larry in charge then too who didn't ever look to make any kind of splashy move.

very true.  

[BobSaccamanno]

I’m a Larry fan. He did a difficult thing. He presided over the Pacers transition from one era to another without the benefit of high draft picks from one era to another. 

After all, he was smart enough to draft Paul George.  George wasn’t a first or second pick.  He went tenth.  He was Larry’s guy.  That was not his only good move.  He was also coach in their heyday.  

People see the way he comes across—the grammar or whatever—but that’s not reasonably related to his intelligence.  It’s a byproduct of his upbringing and the opportunities he had.  I’m not going to defend Larry over every nitpick but this is a guy who is sharp when it comes to basketball.  And he’s a legit, highest level superstar yet in my family’s interactions with him, he’s phenomenally generous with fellow Hoosiers. I have the highest regard for Larry.  

[Hoosierhoopster]

3 hours ago, Billingsley99 said:

Active coaching streak with consecutive winning seasons.

Doc Rivers 13

Billy Donovan  5

Brad Stevens  5

Yes but then look at the playoffs. That's why Doc is out in Clipper land. He also owns by far the worst record of all coaches in losing playoff series, like this year, when up 3-1. That's an odd stat and not sure it really matters, but just looking at consecutive winning seasons only gets you so far.

[Hoosierhoopster]

1 minute ago, BobSaccamanno said:

I’m a Larry fan. He did a difficult thing. He presided over the Pacers transition from one era to another without the benefit of high draft picks from one era to another. 

After all, he was smart enough to draft Paul George.  George wasn’t a first or second pick.  He went tenth.  He was Larry’s guy.  That was not his only good move.  He was also coach in their heyday.  

People see the way he comes across—the grammar or whatever—but that’s not reasonably related to his intelligence.  It’s a byproduct of his upbringing and the opportunities he had.  I’m not going to defend Larry over every nitpick but this is a guy who is sharp when it comes to basketball.  And he’s a legit, highest level superstar yet in my family’s interactions with him, he’s phenomenally generous with fellow Hoosiers. I have the highest regard for Larry.  

He was really good as a coach, of that Reggie team. He then made some good, and some bad, draft decisions. He then single-handedly deconstructed and ruined the Pacers. That's really not debatable. By the time PG left, he had -- literally -- no players around him that he started with. Bird either moved or lost every single player PG started with. That's pathetic. He is also the only coach I can think of who publicly ridiculed his star, PG, and while trying to force him to play the 4 -- bang against power forwards -- immediately after returning from his season-long absence and almost career-ending injury. That was incredibly stupid. It was also a result of his pig-headedness. And it led to his leaving, as PG was leaving. Then Pritch had to completely re-build the Pacers.

My view on Bird isn't that he's a dumb man. It's that he basically ruined the team he had a role in building, and he became a pig-headed, stupid director of player ops. That's what he was.

[BobSaccamanno]

12 minutes ago, Hoosierhoopster said:

He was really good as a coach, of that Reggie team. He then made some good, and some bad, draft decisions. He then single-handedly deconstructed and ruined the Pacers. That's really not debatable. By the time PG left, he had -- literally -- no players around him that he started with. Bird either moved or lost every single player PG started with. That's pathetic. He is also the only coach I can think of who publicly ridiculed his star, PG, and while trying to force him to play the 4 -- bang against power forwards -- immediately after returning from his season-long absence and almost career-ending injury. That was incredibly stupid. It was also a result of his pig-headedness. And it led to his leaving, as PG was leaving. Then Pritch had to completely re-build the Pacers.

My view on Bird isn't that he's a dumb man. It's that he basically ruined the team he had a role in building, and he became a pig-headed, stupid director of player ops. That's what he was.

I know you’ve been on record about your view on Larry.  I obviously highly respect your view and see your POV. I just think it’s very difficult to literally go from one roster to another without falling into the abyss.  Even the Lakers and Celtics have fallen apart at times.   He rebuilt the franchise without getting a chance to draft at the top even once.  Maybe in a way that was counterproductive but I still weigh that heavily.  I’d have to spend the time to recall all of his moves but I do recall thinking in real time that he made some wise choices too.  The end may have been rough but the very good things he did carry heavy weight in my mind.  Anyway we can agree to disagree.  I will agree that my opinion is colored by my fondness for Larry who is my all time favorite player.  

Quick Larry story. My brother and my nephew (who is a good high school player now) was in an opponent‘s arena in corporate seats pretty close to the court. Long before the game started, he saw Larry nearby in another row. He started walking over and the security guard said don’t bother Larry!  Keep in mind that the arena wasn’t very full yet.  Anyway, the security guard looked away and my brother made a beeline for Larry.  All it took was my brother to say he was from Indiana and mention that we went to his camp when we were kids, and Larry was incredibly nice and engaged in a great conversation.  Larry may not be media savvy but he’s very loyal to fellow Hoosiers.  

Edited October 2, 2020 by BobSaccamanno

[5fouls]

17 minutes ago, Hoosierhoopster said:

He was really good as a coach, of that Reggie team. He then made some good, and some bad, draft decisions. He then single-handedly deconstructed and ruined the Pacers. That's really not debatable. By the time PG left, he had -- literally -- no players around him that he started with. Bird either moved or lost every single player PG started with. That's pathetic. He is also the only coach I can think of who publicly ridiculed his star, PG, and while trying to force him to play the 4 -- bang against power forwards -- immediately after returning from his season-long absence and almost career-ending injury. That was incredibly stupid. It was also a result of his pig-headedness. And it led to his leaving, as PG was leaving. Then Pritch had to completely re-build the Pacers.

My view on Bird isn't that he's a dumb man. It's that he basically ruined the team he had a role in building, and he became a pig-headed, stupid director of player ops. That's what he was.

I just got a text from Larry.  You are officially off his Christmas Card list.  

Thought you might want to know.

 

 

[DC2345]

22 minutes ago, BobSaccamanno said:

I’m a Larry fan. He did a difficult thing. He presided over the Pacers transition from one era to another without the benefit of high draft picks from one era to another. 

After all, he was smart enough to draft Paul George.  George wasn’t a first or second pick.  He went tenth.  He was Larry’s guy.  That was not his only good move.  He was also coach in their heyday.  

People see the way he comes across—the grammar or whatever—but that’s not reasonably related to his intelligence.  It’s a byproduct of his upbringing and the opportunities he had.  I’m not going to defend Larry over every nitpick but this is a guy who is sharp when it comes to basketball.  And he’s a legit, highest level superstar yet in my family’s interactions with him, he’s phenomenally generous with fellow Hoosiers. I have the highest regard for Larry.  

He had some good moves but he also had some really bad. He didn't ever do much via trade or free agency other than West and then Ellis who was washed up. Larry was a great player, really good coach, and an ok gm.

[IU Scott]

3 hours ago, dwtaylor1055 said:

D'Antoni to have 2nd interview with Pacers.  

Also, like we have heard for the last 3 or 4 years, Jrue Holiday linked as a trade candidate to the Pacers.  Not sure he fits here assuming Vic stays.  Vic would need to be traded for Jrue to make his way to Indy so assume Vic is trade(not sure where) and My guess would be Indy would send Myles and Doug to Pelicans for Jrue and their 1st rd pick for this year.  Jrue is listed at "SG" but can play both PG and SG.  

I think Jrue and Brogdon would work well together

[BobSaccamanno]

1 minute ago, DC2345 said:

He had some good moves but he also had some really bad. He didn't ever do much via trade or free agency other than West and then Ellis who was washed up. Larry was a great player, really good coach, and an ok gm.

Fair enough. I never would have touched Ellis.  He’s got a loser’s game to me.

But that team that gave Miami all it could handle in its heyday was a creation of Larry’s.  Lance was a really nice piece there and Larry saw something in him.  Lance has fallen off a cliff and it coincides with not being around Larry.  He also resurrected Jalen who was drifting before Larry got him.  West, like you said. Being the architect of that team was pretty strong to get that far.  This was a total revamp from the Reggie/Davises/Smits crew.  And that team didn’t win it all, but as a coach, Larry had them humming on all cylinders and believing.  I think he’s got a good basketball mind.  In the end, there were some problems but that would gloss over some of his earlier successes.  

I think one of his best attributes is taking a player, relating to him, and getting him to believe in an optimal game for himself. And because he is who he is, players pay attention. And it transcended any race.  Sure, we can agree the end might not have been ideal but other GMs have gotten some things wrong, Pat Riley included. 

[cybergates]

The move that people rarely bring up is his philosophy that players don't respond to coaches for very long (Pop and many others beg to differ) so he got rid of Carlisle because his 4 years were up. I know the team missed the playoffs for the 1st time in a long time, but that wasn't Carlisle's fault. He got the team which was basically completely different than the previous year to play well enough to be in playoff contention before the Jackson/Harrington (led GSW to playoffs for 1st time in awhile and upset #1 Mavs) for Dunleavy/Murphy (missed playoffs and had 11 game losing streak) trade debacle happened.

[Hoosierhoopster]

8 minutes ago, cybergates said:

The move that people rarely bring up is his philosophy that players don't respond to coaches for very long (Pop and many others beg to differ) so he got rid of Carlisle because his 4 years were up. I know the team missed the playoffs for the 1st time in a long time, but that wasn't Carlisle's fault. He got the team which was basically completely different than the previous year to play well enough to be in playoff contention before the Jackson/Harrington (led GSW to playoffs for 1st time in awhile and upset #1 Mavs) for Dunleavy/Murphy (missed playoffs and had 11 game losing streak) trade debacle happened.

Right, and I remember when he let Carlisle go, it was just odd. Of course Carlisle went on to win a championship in Dallas, and is one of the better coaches in the game.

I am on record being disgusted with how Bird handled the P's in the last few years -- I do not think he's "stupid," he's sharp, but I do think his pig-headedness translated into a number of bone-headed and just outright stupid moves.

It wasn't just the way he publicly treated PG -- he did the same thing to Hibbert and at a time when the team was trying to trade Hibbert. Why in the world would you publicly call out Hibbert when you're trying to trade him? He basically called Hibbert soft and weak and no longer relevant, while the team was trying to trade him. And as to West -- yes he brought West in, but it was Bird, and his treatment of Hibbert, that made West so angry he left a $12M offer on the table with the P's to join the Spurs for, as I recall, $1M. That was all on Bird. Bird is stubborn. It killed the team in his final years.

[dgambill]

Just like any other teams...what if’s...but I think the Pacers 100% beat the Heat if Danny Granger doesn’t get hurt. Same could probably be said about the Bulls and Rose. Stuff happens. That said I think it’s time for a reboot.