5fouls Posted January 28, 2020 Report Share Posted January 28, 2020 6 minutes ago, IU Scott said: 0 since my kids are out of high school And that's my point. The people on here that actually attend games in person (me, @Billingsley99, @btownqb, etc) understand that the competitive balance gap is more significant than it was 40-50 years ago. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dgambill Posted January 28, 2020 Report Share Posted January 28, 2020 1 minute ago, 5fouls said: Another factor is that truly special talents in small communities no longer stay there. Does anyone really think Larry Bird would stay at Springs Valley if he were in school today. Good point...I do generally agree changing demographics have significantly shifted things. Even at the end we had schools placing parents in jobs to bring their kids into the state/city. Obviously happening still today. I know some moved from my school to play football at another for scouting opportunities. I totally understand your argument. I understand it. I also think that an in season class tournament for your reasons would be a success..it has in other states as well. But something about winning a sectional or a regional and going to semi-state was really special...and I think coaches and administrators rushed the decision before exploring all avenues because they saw how it would benefit them...just as much as the kids and the sport. Now...no way it can be put back. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
milehiiu Posted January 28, 2020 Report Share Posted January 28, 2020 I am like Bob. Old enough to remember single class basketball. Though, unlike him, I did not play. And though I knew, my school rarely stood a chance to even win our first game.... hope never left. It was always there. And I watched with envy over the years. Other schools given little chance. Advance game after game. In the end. Most teams expected to make it to Indianapolis did. And I enjoyed the journey, every step of the way. Indiana high school basketball at the time, was the envy of the nation. Class basketball killed that for me, and the nation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IU Scott Posted January 28, 2020 Report Share Posted January 28, 2020 2 minutes ago, 5fouls said: You do realize that Greenfield Central is a 4A school. Right? No because it is not my school and only lived there for two years. To me it still feels like a small community and I lived my first 46 years in a town of 1000. I said I see both sides and that back around 2005-06 went to a lot of our games at Knightstown and during the tournament run the place was packed. I have even went to their games the last few years and the attendance was Ok but not great. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IUFLA Posted January 28, 2020 Report Share Posted January 28, 2020 So just looking at the yearly numbers... Say 15 kids per team, times 4 is 60... So 60 happy kids every year versus 50,000 pissed off old timers like me... We win...😁 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Billingsley99 Posted January 28, 2020 Report Share Posted January 28, 2020 7 minutes ago, dgambill said: So kids at smaller school don't play AAU....huh...that's news to me. At small schools kids had keys to the gym...we ran "uncoached" practices and scrimmages together all summer. Practiced against college players and alum....but guess that doesn't happen anymore. I would say sure...the bigger schools typically whip the smaller schools...of course..but there are years and there are special teams that are the exception and make that argument dangerous to declare 100%. Maybe I'm out of touch with modern athletes...it doesn't seem like that long ago but I know things have changed rapidly and yes I know the genie is out...and nothing will make it go back. I just don't think it has been anymore beneficial for High School Basketball in the state then perhaps tweeking the old system and perhaps moving a few teams to another sectional where it made sense. I really don't think that is what he is implying. My son was a 3 sport athlete at a 1A school and had college offers in all 3 sports. During his junior year he only had 10 total days off for a full calendar year and many days was doing multiple sports on the same day. He choose to play high level travel baseball instead of basketball because that is the sport he wanted to play in college. At the bigger schools specialization is much much more prevalent. I am sure that most athletes at Carmel or insert 4A powerhouse their basketball players play basketball year round and some may play football but few are playing 3 sports. It does create a separation IMO Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
5fouls Posted January 28, 2020 Report Share Posted January 28, 2020 10 minutes ago, IU Scott said: 0 since my kids are out of high school So, another question. You don't attend because your kids are out of high school. Are you going to stop following IU when they are out of college? I have never understood the perception that you can no longer support a local team because your kids don't attend. I plan on attending until the day I die, and know a lot of people like that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IU Scott Posted January 28, 2020 Report Share Posted January 28, 2020 2 minutes ago, 5fouls said: And that's my point. The people on here that actually attend games in person (me, @Billingsley99, @btownqb, etc) understand that the competitive balance gap is more significant than it was 40-50 years ago. Well this is the first year that I have not went to a high school game so I understand everything you are brining up. I just think telling kids you are not good enough to compete brings a bad message to them. It gives them an excuse to not try hard in other aspects of life because they will feel like they don't measure up to the competition. Are you telling top students at these small schools that they should not try to get into these major universities since they probably did not have advantages that students at Carmel had. My daughter graduated 12th in her class at a small school and was good enough student to get into IU on a full ride scholarship. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Billingsley99 Posted January 28, 2020 Report Share Posted January 28, 2020 2 minutes ago, IU Scott said: Well this is the first year that I have not went to a high school game so I understand everything you are brining up. I just think telling kids you are not good enough to compete brings a bad message to them. It gives them an excuse to not try hard in other aspects of life because they will feel like they don't measure up to the competition. Are you telling top students at these small schools that they should not try to get into these major universities since they probably did not have advantages that students at Carmel had. My daughter graduated 12th in her class at a small school and was good enough student to get into IU on a full ride scholarship. taking that point then all colleges should participate in the same category and Franklin College should expect to play with and beat the Dukes and Kentucky's of college basketball. Since they are DIII they are being sent a message that they are not good enough You are comparing athletic and academic ability those things have nothing to do with school size. I have former student from a 1A school that went to Harvard and became an attorney. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
milehiiu Posted January 28, 2020 Report Share Posted January 28, 2020 I would like to interject something here. Years ago. On John Decker's Hoosier Nation, on the old Scout platform. We had a similar discussion about class basketball in Indiana. At that time, class basketball was relatively newer, than now. And the overwhelming opinion, back then was FOR class basketball. Now, with a few years of class basketball under our belt, it is interesting to see more and more people wishing for a return to one class basketball, than back then. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dgambill Posted January 28, 2020 Report Share Posted January 28, 2020 1 minute ago, Billingsley99 said: I really don't think that is what he is implying. My son was a 3 sport athlete at a 1A school and had college offers in all 3 sports. During his junior year he only had 10 total days off for a full calendar year and many days was doing multiple sports on the same day. He choose to play high level travel baseball instead of basketball because that is the sport he wanted to play in college. At the bigger schools specialization is much much more prevalent. I am sure that most athletes at Carmel or insert 4A powerhouse their basketball players play basketball year round and some may play football but few are playing 3 sports. It does create a separation IMO Oh no doubt..I get that. I just think the idea that there aren't kids at 1A and 2A schools that couldn't play for 4A schools or whatever is silly...and most kids I know that were really good...still specialized. Thing is...when kids are in school there is no AAU ball. So if they are playing football or running track or playing baseball for the most part it's not interfering with travel ball. Those that choose not to play travel ball still play in summer leagues and have non-sanctioned workouts all summer. Most years this discussion is mute if your goal is just to say the big schools will win...they always do..but for a purist or for someone that sponsors the notion that success is not defined by simply how many state champions there are..there is also another valid side to the argument. I also think that there have been and continue to be some special teams across the state that maybe wouldn't win a state championship but certainly could win a sectional and regional in a much high class level...and that satisfaction of competition...it's gone and can't come back. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
5fouls Posted January 28, 2020 Report Share Posted January 28, 2020 5 hours ago, milehiiu said: I would like to interject something here. Years ago. On John Decker's Hoosier Nation, on the old Scout platform. We had a similar discussion about class basketball in Indiana. At that time, class basketball was relatively newer, than now. And the overwhelming opinion, back then was FOR class basketball. Now, with a few years of class basketball under our belt, it is interesting to see more and more people wishing for a return to one class basketball, than back then. Mile. The people wanting that do not attend games. I've asked that directly on here and no one has stepped up. I can promise you that if you posed the question to every fan sitting in a high school gym on Friday night, 75-80 percent prefer class basketball. I remember the single class system very well, and stories of how things were back then are fun to reminisce about. But, to imply that the majority oppose class basketball today because a dozen posters on a message board do is not reality. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IU Scott Posted January 28, 2020 Report Share Posted January 28, 2020 9 minutes ago, 5fouls said: So, another question. You don't attend because your kids are out of high school. Are you going to stop following IU when they are out of college? I have never understood the perception that you can no longer support a local team because your kids don't attend. I plan on attending until the day I die, and know a lot of people like that. Well since I have followed IU since birth then no and like I said I have moved away from that community. To me it was easier to follow your old school when you have kids there and in these small communities you knew all of the kids playing in sports. The thing about attendance I see is that a lot of the older crowd still goes and they have been going for years even when I was young. I see a diop off from other students attending games and having huge student sections. Since I live in Greenfield now and have no affiliation to that school then I just don't have the desire to go to the games. That will probably change once my great nephew gets up to high school and playing sports but right now I just don't want to. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Billingsley99 Posted January 28, 2020 Report Share Posted January 28, 2020 2 minutes ago, milehiiu said: I would like to interject something here. Years ago. On John Decker's Hoosier Nation, on the old Scout platform. We had a similar discussion about class basketball in Indiana. At that time, class basketball was relatively newer, than now. And the overwhelming opinion, back then was FOR class basketball. Now, with a few years of class basketball under our belt, it is interesting to see more and more people wishing for a return to one class basketball, than back then. Its just like anything IMO, the older we get the more we glorify our glory days. For some reason people tend to forget the bad and embellish the good. Leading up to the South Decatur Greensburg game I spoke with a guy older than myself that played for South and he talked about how much it meant to him when they almost beat Greensburg in single class sectional and how close they were blah blah blah. I looked up the info and found out they lost by 26. Just like I think Griffey Jr was the best centerfielder ever and some older than I say Mays and my kids will say Trout. we all long for our glory days Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dgambill Posted January 28, 2020 Report Share Posted January 28, 2020 5 minutes ago, milehiiu said: I would like to interject something here. Years ago. On John Decker's Hoosier Nation, on the old Scout platform. We had a similar discussion about class basketball in Indiana. At that time, class basketball was relatively newer, than now. And the overwhelming opinion, back then was FOR class basketball. Now, with a few years of class basketball under our belt, it is interesting to see more and more people wishing for a return to one class basketball, than back then. I haven't looked much but do you think it's because by and large it hasn't led seeing a more diverse champion pool? Meaning even in 1 and 2a and 3 and 4a its still basically the same schools winning the regionals and state championships or having success. The theory that more schools would have success but in reality the same programs win year after year so people aren't really seeing the benefits or something else? Like perhaps we don't realize what you have until it's gone and we under appreciated the specialness of what was there and the thought of glory for more people and the $$$ they thought it would generate are now realizing it just didn't work out. I think there is a lot more that is causing the decline of viewership etc when it comes to basketball and don't want to go into all of it but I would love to know if people would be honest to say...well the class system didn't really accomplish what we thought it would. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IU Scott Posted January 28, 2020 Report Share Posted January 28, 2020 1 minute ago, 5fouls said: Mile. The people wanting that do not attend games. I've asked that directly on here and no one has stepped up. I can promise you that if you posed the question to every fan sitting in a high school gym on Friday night, 75-80 percent prefer class basketball. I remember the single class system very well, and stories of how things were back then are fun to reminisce about. But, to imply that the majority prefer class basketball today because a dozen posters on a message board do is not reality. Maybe that tells you something on why people are not attending because they might have lost interest in high school basketball since class basketball. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
5fouls Posted January 28, 2020 Report Share Posted January 28, 2020 Just now, IU Scott said: Well since I have followed IU since birth then no and like I said I have moved away from that community. To me it was easier to follow your old school when you have kids there and in these small communities you knew all of the kids playing in sports. The thing about attendance I see is that a lot of the older crowd still goes and they have been going for years even when I was young. I see a diop off from other students attending games and having huge student sections. Since I live in Greenfield now and have no affiliation to that school then I just don't have the desire to go to the games. That will probably change once my great nephew gets up to high school and playing sports but right now I just don't want to. Wasn't singling you out. I know a lot of people like that. My wife will be like that when my kids graduate. For me, I just don't view sports that way. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Billingsley99 Posted January 28, 2020 Report Share Posted January 28, 2020 7 minutes ago, dgambill said: Oh no doubt..I get that. I just think the idea that there aren't kids at 1A and 2A schools that couldn't play for 4A schools or whatever is silly...and most kids I know that were really good...still specialized. Thing is...when kids are in school there is no AAU ball. So if they are playing football or running track or playing baseball for the most part it's not interfering with travel ball. Those that choose not to play travel ball still play in summer leagues and have non-sanctioned workouts all summer. Most years this discussion is mute if your goal is just to say the big schools will win...they always do..but for a purist or for someone that sponsors the notion that success is not defined by simply how many state champions there are..there is also another valid side to the argument. I also think that there have been and continue to be some special teams across the state that maybe wouldn't win a state championship but certainly could win a sectional and regional in a much high class level...and that satisfaction of competition...it's gone and can't come back. Travel basketball will begin before the State Championship games are played. How can a baseball player play both AAU and his high school baseball season? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
milehiiu Posted January 28, 2020 Report Share Posted January 28, 2020 5 minutes ago, 5fouls said: Mile. The people wanting that do not attend games. I've asked that directly on here and no one has stepped up. I can promise you that if you posed the question to every fan sitting in a high school gym on Friday night, 75-80 percent prefer class basketball. I remember the single class system very well, and stories of how things were back then are fun to reminisce about. But, to imply that the majority prefer class basketball today because a dozen posters on a message board do is not reality. And that most likely would be true. However, back when we talked about one class basketball, on Decker's site.... there was hardly anyone wanting to go back. Might be a minor shift, but still a shift. Keep going to those games ! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Billingsley99 Posted January 28, 2020 Report Share Posted January 28, 2020 2 minutes ago, IU Scott said: Maybe that tells you something on why people are not attending because they might have lost interest in high school basketball since class basketball. People are attending that is the thing. Of course its not like when Damon was making runs but the attendance on any given Friday or Saturday night is not much different than it was 30 years ago. the big schools that are bad do not draw a crowd but the small schools even when down have the same numbers and in some cases better. Scouting games for almost 25 years I can tell you with a certainty that in some communities basketball is better now than ever. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IU Scott Posted January 28, 2020 Report Share Posted January 28, 2020 1 minute ago, 5fouls said: Wasn't singling you out. I know a lot of people like that. My wife will be like that when my kids graduate. For me, I just don't view sports that way. I guess I have been to 4 high school games this year since I forgot that I went to the HOF tournament in New Castle. I started going to high school games when I was 2 years old because my family all went to the games and supported their community. I followed high school sports my whole life and remember every March watching a lot of the tournament on TV. Back then channel 4 in Indy would show the Indianapolis sectional final from Hinkle. They showed all games of the regionals and semi states as well as the final 4. I remember waking up those Saturday mornings waiting for those games to start and it did not matter who was playing. I also never missed a tournament pairing show that they had every year and couldn't wait to see who we played in the 1st game of the sectional. I just don't see the interest in the tournament like it use to and you can see that by not having it on local channels any longer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dgambill Posted January 28, 2020 Report Share Posted January 28, 2020 4 minutes ago, Billingsley99 said: Travel basketball will begin before the State Championship games are played. How can a baseball player play both AAU and his high school baseball season? Baseball does run into the summer...yeah I played golf lol. I do know a handful of kids that play baseball to completion but mostly because they aren't on teams that go to state etc....and the ones that are playing both simply pick certain AAU tournaments to attend. I've seen many coaches make exceptions both ways depending on the schedule to let them out of practices etc to meet the other obligation...that said these kids weren't at the highest level of AAU and baseball or football as football practice starts in the late summer too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Billingsley99 Posted January 28, 2020 Report Share Posted January 28, 2020 1 minute ago, dgambill said: Baseball does run into the summer...yeah I played golf lol. I do know a handful of kids that play baseball to completion but mostly because they aren't on teams that go to state etc....and the ones that are playing both simply pick certain AAU tournaments to attend. I've seen many coaches make exceptions both ways depending on the schedule to let them out of practices etc to meet the other obligation...that said these kids weren't at the highest level of AAU and baseball or football as football practice starts in the late summer too. There is always exceptions. When I coached high level AAU we would not recruit any kid that played baseball. We began practice as soon as their team was eliminated from the tournament. My son made an AAU team coached by Sherron Wilkerson and also an elite baseball team, there was no way to do both so he chose baseball. He was 12 at the time. Kids are almost forced to make a decision earlier and earlier, looking back he wondered how good at basketball could he have been if he had chosen differently. That is the dilema with kids at small schools. At a big school if you don't play AAU someone else is and getting better and will pass you. At his school he did not have that worry. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dgambill Posted January 28, 2020 Report Share Posted January 28, 2020 So I come back to the compromise...what would have been wrong with a class tournament in season...say over winter break where you play against only schools in your class and crown a tournament champion and then at the end of the season have the state championship sponsored tournament to crown a true state champion be a bad thing? Kids would have the same chance to say we were the best small school, medium size, large school in our state...trophies in the case...it's right after Christmas and into the early part of January so travel wouldn't be a big deal as you would likely be down to a semi-state etc by the time school came back in and maybe only have 1 day off of school on a Friday and then another game on Saturday? It works in other states and get's as much fan fare as any other tournaments or ball games get? Then you have the mother tournament..the true crown jewel played at the end of the year like always...and see if magic happens on any given night etc. Guess that has always been my question. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FKIM01 Posted January 28, 2020 Report Share Posted January 28, 2020 1 hour ago, Bob said: I am old enough that I played in the one class system. The sectionals were standing room only! They were absolutely a blast not only to play in, but to be a fan at them. Once and almost admittedly after they went to class basketball the crowds started dwelling. The regionals were at neutral sites 4 teams on weekends. Those were packed also. You played two games in one day to win a regional or semi St or State title. It was really something. I don’t see the same excitement anymore! Any drop off was coincidental and was going to happen anyway. Just a sign of the changing times. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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