Class basketball?

[IU Scott]

Guys we are not trying to change your minds about class basketball but just stating our opinion on why we like the one class system.  Also we know it will never go back but it is just a fun discussion to have.

[FKIM01]

I'll say what I said in the Kaufman thread...ask the people at Barr-Reeve or Loogootee if they want to go back to single class ball.  The answer is a resounding no.  Barr-Reeve in particular has enjoyed seeing the playing field leveled.

I also used a wrestling analogy...how often is a 98-pound flyweight going to beat a 220-pound heavyweight?  The answer is very rarely and only when something freakish happens.  With heavyweights getting progressively bigger and stronger, the odds just keep getting longer.

I too, enjoyed the old sectionals and on occasion seeing David slay Goliath, but the gap has gotten a lot bigger over the years and class basketball has given the smaller schools something to be excited about on a regular basis.  9.8 years out of 10, you could simply crown the 4A champion the overall state champ and it would have the same effect.

[FKIM01]

44 minutes ago, 5fouls said:

And that's my point.  The people on here that actually attend games in person (me, @Billingsley99, @btownqb, etc) understand that the competitive balance gap is more significant than it was 40-50 years ago.

Ex....actly.

[IU Scott]

Just now, FKIM01 said:

I'll say what I said in the Kaufman thread...ask the people at Barr-Reeve or Loogootee if they want to go back to single class ball.  The answer is a resounding no.  Barr-Reeve in particular has enjoyed seeing the playing field leveled.

I also used a wrestling analogy...how often is a 98-pound flyweight going to beat a 220-pound heavyweight?  The answer is very rarely and only when something freakish happens.  With heavyweights getting progressively bigger and stronger, the odds just keep getting longer.

I too, enjoyed the old sectionals and on occasion seeing David slay Goliath, but the gap has gotten a lot bigger over the years and class basketball has given the smaller schools something to be excited about on a regular basis.  9.8 years out of 10, you could simply crown the 4A champion the overall state champ and it would have the same effect.

I don't see where you wrestling analogy applies to basketball because you can be a great player and not be big.  Smaller teams still have a chance in basketball because there is more to it than just your physical strength.

[Billingsley99]

8 minutes ago, IU Scott said:

I don't see where you wrestling analogy applies to basketball because you can be a great player and not be big.  Smaller teams still have a chance in basketball because there is more to it than just your physical strength.

Yes you can but it takes a whole team of very very good players to win at a high level. Most of the bench players at a mediocre 4A would start for most 1A programs. Its not a knock on the kids the talent pool has a lot more to draw from. In individual sports like golf and tennis yes any level can win but when you need multiple stars it won't happen.  I am sure there are others but the year the Greensburg won their 2nd championship they were IMO the best team in the state. In almost every other year the 4A teams that win are head and shoulders above the other 3 classes. how do you think Blackhawk Christian would fare in the 4A tourney and they have legit D1 talent so take the average 2A school that may have some very good players but not high level D1  fare in 4A

[IU Scott]

1 minute ago, Billingsley99 said:

Yes you can but it takes a whole team of very very good players to win at a high level. Most of the bench players at a mediocre 4A would start for most 1A programs. Its not a knock on the kids the talent pool has a lot more to draw from. In individual sports like golf and tennis yes any level can win but when you need multiple stars it won't happen.  I am sure there are others but the year the Greensburg won their 2nd championship they were IMO the best team in the state. In almost every other year the 4A teams that win are head and shoulders above the other 3 classes. how do you think Blackhawk Christian would fare in the 4A tourney and they have legit D1 talent so take the average 2A school that may have some very good players but not high level D1  fare in 4A

I would like to see how they would fare

[Billingsley99]

1 minute ago, IU Scott said:

I would like to see how they would fare

My best guess is that they will like their results they way they are much more than playing in the 4A tournament. 

[IU Scott]

Just now, Billingsley99 said:

My best guess is that they will like their results they way they are much more than playing in the 4A tournament. 

Not going to argue that and like I said not trying to change your mind but just going by what I like.  The last few years we played our sectionals at Shenandoah which is a descent size gyms and the crowds were good but not sold out.  One difference I see today is that if your team is not playing that night you don't see that fan base still going to the other games.   Championship games have been almost sold out and had good crowds but not for the whole sectional.

[Billingsley99]

Just now, IU Scott said:

Not going to argue that and like I said not trying to change your mind but just going by what I like.  The last few years we played our sectionals at Shenandoah which is a descent size gyms and the crowds were good but not sold out.  One difference I see today is that if your team is not playing that night you don't see that fan base still going to the other games.   Championship games have been almost sold out and had good crowds but not for the whole sectional.

I can tell you for a fact that the South Decatur sectional which they had hosted for 12 years but since moving up won't host, there is not a gym of the teams involved that will hold the crowd opening night. It will sell out

[IU Scott]

1 minute ago, Billingsley99 said:

I can tell you for a fact that the South Decatur sectional which they had hosted for 12 years but since moving up won't host, there is not a gym of the teams involved that will hold the crowd opening night. It will sell out

That is great but not has happened in my experience lately.  Just watch highlights every Friday on Channel 8 and even the top teams in the Indy area you see half empty gyms.  They showed the LC game form last week and it was not even close to being a sellout.

[Billingsley99]

Just now, IU Scott said:

That is great but not has happened in my experience lately.  Just watch highlights every Friday on Channel 8 and even the top teams in the Indy area you see half empty gyms.  They showed the LC game form last week and it was not even close to being a sellout.

Its always been that way in Indy. Even with Conley and oden. School support as a whole with IPS is terrible either in single or 4 class basketball. Not true in the smaller classes. Just pick a random Friday night small school game and you will see that Hoosier Hysteria is still alive and kicking

[Indy1987]

1 hour ago, 5fouls said:

30-40 years ago that was the mindset.  Things have changed over the years.

Only because people were forced to accept class basketball.  The move to the class set up was a money grab and had nothing to do with what the people of Indiana wanted.

Go Hoosiers!!!

[IU Scott]

2 minutes ago, Billingsley99 said:

Its always been that way in Indy. Even with Conley and oden. School support as a whole with IPS is terrible either in single or 4 class basketball. Not true in the smaller classes. Just pick a random Friday night small school game and you will see that Hoosier Hysteria is still alive and kicking

Like I said in an earlier post we went to the semi state the LN played after us and did not bring many fans at all.  I guess your experience has been different than mine because I went to games with good crowds but are not packed.

[Billingsley99]

1 minute ago, IU Scott said:

Like I said in an earlier post we went to the semi state the LN played after us and did not bring many fans at all.  I guess your experience has been different than mine because I went to games with good crowds but are not packed.

I just said the 4A teams in Indy have never ever ever ever done well with crowds. When a 4A like new Albany, Bloomington South or North, or any of the schools up North that are not in Indy are there the crowds are great. 

[FKIM01]

38 minutes ago, milehiiu said:

I would like to interject something here.  Years ago. On John Decker's Hoosier Nation, on the old Scout platform. We had a similar discussion about class basketball in Indiana. At that time, class basketball was relatively newer, than now.  And the overwhelming opinion, back then was FOR class basketball.  Now, with a few years of class basketball under our belt, it is interesting to see more and more people wishing for a return to one class basketball, than back then.

I don't see that at all.  The illusion is created because of the vocal nature of some of those participating in online basketball forums desiring a return to class basketball.  When class basketball was new, there was tremendous controversy over it and a lot of opposition.  Bobby Plump headed a group that was fiercely opposed to the change and for awhile, it seemed like they had a lot of momentum.  Over time, that opposition has faded a lot and the only place I really see a lot of discussion about a desire to return to single class basketball is online forums like this one.

I've used Barr-Reeve as an example, but 3A Washington, which I'm even closer to, is of the same mind.  I hear no public interest in reverting to single class basketball.  The three state championships in the 6 year Zeller era were sources of huge community pride and no one cared that they were 3A championships.  Maybe the big 4A schools carp about no longer having single class championships, but around me with 1, 2 & 3A schools, nobody, and I mean nobody talks about going back.

[milehiiu]

2 minutes ago, FKIM01 said:

I don't see that at all.  The illusion is created because of the vocal nature of some of those participating in online basketball forums desiring a return to class basketball.  When class basketball was new, there was tremendous controversy over it and a lot of opposition.  Bobby Plump headed a group that was fiercely opposed to the change and for awhile, it seemed like they had a lot of momentum.  Over time, that opposition has faded a lot and the only place I really see a lot of discussion about a desire to return to single class basketball is online forums like this one.

I've used Barr-Reeve as an example, but 3A Washington, which I'm even closer to, is of the same mind.  I hear no public interest in reverting to single class basketball.  The three state championships in the 6 year Zeller era were sources of huge community pride and no one cared that they were 3A championships.  Maybe the big 4A schools carp about no longer having single class championships, but around me with 1, 2 & 3A schools, nobody, and I mean nobody talks about going back.

Just an old man's memories. Who no longer lives in Indiana. Just remembering....the way things were.   LOL

[Billingsley99]

3 minutes ago, FKIM01 said:

I don't see that at all.  The illusion is created because of the vocal nature of some of those participating in online basketball forums desiring a return to class basketball.  When class basketball was new, there was tremendous controversy over it and a lot of opposition.  Bobby Plump headed a group that was fiercely opposed to the change and for awhile, it seemed like they had a lot of momentum.  Over time, that opposition has faded a lot and the only place I really see a lot of discussion about a desire to return to single class basketball is online forums like this one.

I've used Barr-Reeve as an example, but 3A Washington, which I'm even closer to, is of the same mind.  I hear no public interest in reverting to single class basketball.  The three state championships in the 6 year Zeller era were sources of huge community pride and no one cared that they were 3A championships.  Maybe the big 4A schools carp about no longer having single class championships, but around me with 1, 2 & 3A schools, nobody, and I mean nobody talks about going back.

Since Class basketball in our area, Greensburg (2) Hauser (2) Jac Cen Del (1) Morristown (1) Waldron (1) have all won boys basketball state championships. I have gone to watch each of those because it is close to our community and I love basketball. None of those schools had ever won a title before but I tell you what their crowd was huge because all of the community got behind them. None of them would trade those titles for getting beat in sectional or winning a sectional to lose in Regional I promise you that. 

[IU Scott]

5 minutes ago, Billingsley99 said:

I just said the 4A teams in Indy have never ever ever ever done well with crowds. When a 4A like new Albany, Bloomington South or North, or any of the schools up North that are not in Indy are there the crowds are great. 

I guess I ma just coming from the perspective that I was use to seeing 9000 people our sectionals every night of the tournament at New Castle.  Back then even during the regular season the place would have 7500 or more for the games.  Today you can go to a big regular season game and you are lucky to see 3000.  I have really noticed a huge drop off in the attendance at the HOF tournament there because it use to sell out and today around 2500 goes if their lucky.
 

[milehiiu]

Great discussion and information, people. As of my typing this, Rico started this thread, just four hours ago.  And it has already reached four pages.  Obviously a topic of interest.

[FKIM01]

Just now, milehiiu said:

Just an old man's memories. Who no longer lives in Indiana. Just remembering....the way things were.   LOL

...and I get that.  I can remember looking back in the Washington paper every year when they had a huge sectional insert and had all the results of the Washington sectional going back to the beginning.  Some years, there were like 15-16 teams in the Washington sectional...schools like Alfordsville (now a part of Barr-Reeve) and Epson, Odon, Raglesville and Plainville (Now a part of North Daviess).  Just crazy big tournaments.  most years (and we're talking like 95%), either Washington or Loogootee won it all.  Only in the 1980's did other powers like Barr-Reeve and Washington Catholic emerge and diversify the perennial winners pool.

The best David and Goliath game I ever saw there was in the 1980 Washington sectional when Washington Catholic (with a record of something like 3-17 or 4-16) just went lights out in the semifinals and blew out sectional favorite Loogootee.  In the first round, Loogootee had drawn co-favorite Washington and won a hard-fought game with like a 3-point margin.  The overwhelming consensus was that the winner of that game would win the sectional.  Loogootee was coached bu HOF-er Jack Butcher and had been to the state final game in 1970 and 1975 so there was some thought that they were due to go back that year and no question, they were talented...MUCH more talented than hapless Washington Catholic.

Didn't matter.

Washington Catholic could not miss.  There was a guard...I think his name was Brayton Hayes(?) just lighting it up...having the performance of his life.  I think he shot a couple from the hash marks.  With each shot and the margin growing, the entire gym, save the Loogootee section, was ROARING.  We all kept thinking that eventually, WC would come back to earth and Loogootee would pull out the win, but it was a lot of fun rooting for David (side note: both schools were and are 1A schools, but Loogootee had a long history of excellence under Jack Butcher).  Long story short, WC rode their magical night all the way to the buzzer much to the delight of everybody except the stunned Loogootee crowd.

Championship night, Barr-Reeve, which at that time was considered a very long shot to win the sectional, blew out Washington Catholic, which reverted to their previous form and looked like they would have struggled beating a junior high team.

Magical memories, but from my perspective, the single class genie has long since escaped the bottle.  Fun conversation nevertheless.

[Indy1987]

1 hour ago, 5fouls said:

Mile.  The people wanting that do not attend games.  I've asked that directly on here and no one has stepped up.  I can promise you that if you posed the question to every fan sitting in a high school gym on Friday night, 75-80 percent prefer class basketball.

I remember the single class system very well, and stories of how things were back then are fun to reminisce about.  But, to imply that the majority prefer class basketball today because a dozen posters on a message board do is not reality.

Maybe they'd be attending still if the IHSAA hadn't got greedy.  🤔🤔🤔

I no longer live in Indiana but I do have family and friends that still live in the town I grew up in.   I don't know of any of them attending games regularly anymore.   Once your kids graduate there are so many more things you're free to do and see on a Friday night.  So many of us are transient that we lose the connection to our HS as well.  I've tried attending games at the local schools I've been near but its just not the same.

I'd be curious to see a legit poll on which the citizens of Indiana would prefer.  

Go Hoosiers!!!

[FKIM01]

7 minutes ago, Indy1987 said:

Maybe they'd be attending still if the IHSAA hadn't got greedy.  🤔🤔🤔

I no longer live in Indiana but I do have family and friends that still live in the town I grew up in.   I don't know of any of them attending games regularly anymore.   Once your kids graduate there are so many more things you're free to do and see on a Friday night.  So many of us are transient that we lose the connection to our HS as well.  I've tried attending games at the local schools I've been near but its just not the same.

I'd be curious to see a legit poll on which the citizens of Indiana would prefer.  

Go Hoosiers!!!

My prediction:  1A's would be overwhelmingly in favor of class basketball.  2A's, about the same.  3A's a little less but still a sizable majority for class basketball.  4A's would have some appetite for single class basketball, but even there, most 4A champs probably already feel like they are the best team in the state, so I'm guessing there would be some apathy about the decision, outside of us old-timers who remember single class well.

Again, that was also an era where high school basketball didn't have near as many competing interests as it does today.

[IU Scott]

The thing is that if IU is playing on a Friday or Saturday night I rather stay home and watch them than go to a high school game.  Also there are just way more things that people can find doing now than people had back in the day as well.  I think kids would rather stay home and play fortnight or what ever game they are in to.  Even at games you see people looking down at their phones as much as they are watching the game.

[FKIM01]

3 minutes ago, IU Scott said:

The thing is that if IU is playing on a Friday or Saturday night I rather stay home and watch them than go to a high school game.  Also there are just way more things that people can find doing now than people had back in the day as well.  I think kids would rather stay home and play fortnight or what ever game they are in to.  Even at games you see people looking down at their phones as much as they are watching the game.

You hit it on the head there...many many more competing interests than there used to be.  Sad but true.  High school basketball is still a great venue for entertainment, but it used to be just about the only show in town.

[IU Scott]

5 minutes ago, FKIM01 said:

You hit it on the head there...many many more competing interests than there used to be.  Sad but true.  High school basketball is still a great venue for entertainment, but it used to be just about the only show in town.

It is also cheap entertainment.  I have noticed a lot of lower scoring game sin high school when I see scores on TV so maybe it is not as entertaining of basketball that people are used to.  I know South Decatur scores a whole lot but a lot of smaller schools seem to have trouble scoring.