The H🔥T Seat

[IUFLA]

16 minutes ago, Seeking6 said:

All I know is that our current version isn't fun to watch play anymore. Getting beat like we did in game 23 of year 3 of a coaching tenure vs rival at home when we honor our legend. That just can't happen. I'll support the team and hope that Archie can turn this thing around still but I also don't blame people for just saying f this stuff. 

It's not that I don't understand that point of view...I simply don't agree with it. Let Archie have at least one graduating class, then we'll make the assessment.

What we need are Luka Garza types (I know I prattle on about the kid, but it's one of the more inspiring stories I've witnessed watching B10 basketball). Kids who get in the gym and work tirelessly to make themselves better...kids who hustle and run their guts out to get back on D. Watch Garza play sometime...he doesn't take any plays off...he might not be the most athletic kid in the B10, but no one has his motor...

I think Anthony Leal is that type of kid...Galloway too...not sure about Jordan Geronimo, but I'm hopeful...

And I think were it not for injuries, Hunter and Phinisee are those types of kids too...

And we already know about TJD and Joey Brunk...

 

 

[IUCrazy2]

27 minutes ago, tdhoosier said:

If Green is the cancer people speculate, the next question out of their mouth is “then why does CAM play him?” I’m going to say because Al has a hard time playing defense, Rob obviously can’t play a full amount of minutes because of a mysterious injury and Franklin is a freshman.

CAM is hamstrung. Partly of his own doing because he should have recruited more guards. 

Like in life the answer to complex questions requires a complex answer. Despite what you think of CAM it’s like the there’s one pressing ‘no brainer’ answer he has failed grasp.

Look, the team is limited in personnel. The system he wants to play requires specific personnel. I.e. big men with quick feet who can recover from hedges. Everybody is always drooling over UVA, but it took a while for Bennett to go get the right players for his system. CAM so far has half a team of players he needs for his system. 

You can call all this ‘making excuses’ but I’l just call it reality. Give the guy another 2 years and let’s see what happens.

Sure, we can go out and hire another coach, but we were shown in the last search that many coaches don’t want to come here. We’re going to be left with another guy like CAM - somebody who is not elite yet and looking to prove themselves. We go down this road - it’s another 5 years of not winning. Reality isn’t pretty right now, but we need to face it. 

 

 

I have seen people pull out the "it takes 4 years" card, but can you show me any wildly successful coach that was showing zero signs of life until year 5?  Year 4 the team is completely his.  "Well he was forced to keep the Crean recruits..."  OK, bu he was still their coach for their entire time at IU and he has played the 2 that are left a whole bunch of minutes.

Some of you just keep pushing this window further and further back because you have the battered fan syndrome.  Our fanbase has become a Pearl Jam song..."Can't find a better maaaaaan...."  If we tank this year and are mediocre again next, Miller is not the guy.  I would argue that if we miss the tournament again this year we might as well move on because recruiting is dead at that point.  But he will get a year four where every loss becomes a referendum on his job by the majority of the fanbase.  When you get to that point you are done.  And if you are not pretty successful in year 4, what does another year give you?

[CTrojan88]

22 minutes ago, IUrocker said:

I support Archie and hope he succeeds. I was pumped when we hired him because I thought he was gonna be the next really good up and coming coach. I said to my friends and family  “if he can take Dayton to the Elite 8, just imagine what he could do with IUs resources and glamour.  
It is indeed getting difficult to pick a side as far as whether this is a coaching issue or a players issue.....but something definitely does feel off about the team. Whether he is being handcuffed by whoever, or as Jarod Odle put it and said he experienced himself, a “cancer” on the team, I haven’t really seen the fire and grit I expected Archie to portray. People could say he acts clueless and seems over his head, which indeed passes the eye test, but at the same time I could see a guy frustrated and pissed about a possible internal situation he’s trying to manage that no one really knows about, and it sucks because he knows the only thing people see on the outside is piss poor effort and losses, which is making people question his coaching abilities. His Dayton teams always played with passion and intensity, and made what Archie built a reputation as being. There are kids on this team who just act like they don’t give a damn. The fact that Archie isn’t ripping into them makes me wonder what the heck is really going on.

If Archie is hamstrung, explain this....in yesterday’s game, we cut the lead to 6 with 9 minutes to go.  We had momentum.  Rather than ride the group that got us there, Archie changes 4 of the 5, bringing Brunk, Race, Al and Green into the game.  In 30 seconds, we are back down 11 - game over.  A coach that gets it wouldn’t have done that.  Archie seems to do it all the time....it was very clear once we started playing better competition this season that playing 10-11 guys was not going to work.  Archie hinted at knowing this but never really changed his approach.  For me, all signs point to him being in over his head against better teams and coaches than he faced at Dayton.

[NotIThatLives]

6 minutes ago, IUFLA said:

It's not that I don't understand that point of view...I simply don't agree with it. Let Archie have at least one graduating class, then we'll make the assessment.

What we need are Luka Garza types (I know I prattle on about the kid, but it's one of the more inspiring stories I've witnessed watching B10 basketball). Kids who get in the gym and work tirelessly to make themselves better...kids who hustle and run their guts out to get back on D. Watch Garza play sometime...he doesn't take any plays off...he might not be the most athletic kid in the B10, but no one has his motor...

I think Anthony Leal is that type of kid...Galloway too...not sure about Jordan Geronimo, but I'm hopeful...

And I think were it not for injuries, Hunter and Phinisee are those types of kids too...

And we already know about TJD and Joey Brunk...

 

 

He has to go get some start now ready transfers.  I don't care if they are juco or grads.  Either way, as currently stands for next year, help is not on the way and he will be fired for missing the tourney 4 years in a row.  

He made a huge mistake not doing it this year and evidently trusting Green to be something he's not.  

The other sad part is not coaching guys up.  Bob Huggins would be top 10 with this talent.  Most underrated and despised coach in the nation.  He'll kick his top 3 players off the team for discipline and still win 25 games.  

[BEKA]

I honestly do not see how Archie recovers from this. A four game skid, including blowing a 6 point lead at home with a minute on the clock, and 2 no-show performances on the road. Now this stinker of a showing against a sub par Purdue team at Assembly Hall on one of the most hyped days in the past 20 years. Aaaand we're staring at a really good Iowa team coming to town this week. This team plays with no sense of urgency and continually makes the same boneheaded decisions game after game. Where is the progress? Why does he continue to start the same 5 guys every game and follow horrible substitution patterns? He's completely married to a defensive scheme that he doesn't have the players for and runs whatever you want to call the "offense". It's literally the same garbage basketball every game for 2+ years. 

I've tried being patient and not to jump on the "fire Archie" bandwagon, and I realize the players have a role in this as well. But something has to change, and fast. Otherwise we are looking at permanent mediocrity and the loss of a huge swath of our fan base. 

[rico]

7 minutes ago, NotIThatLives said:

He has to go get some start now ready transfers.  I don't care if they are juco or grads.  Either way, as currently stands for next year, help is not on the way and he will be fired for missing the tourney 4 years in a row.  

He made a huge mistake not doing it this year and evidently trusting Green to be something he's not.  

The other sad part is not coaching guys up.  Bob Huggins would be top 10 with this talent.  Most underrated and despised coach in the nation.  He'll kick his top 3 players off the team for discipline and still win 25 games.  

The same Bob Huggins that was 15-21 last year?

[IUrocker]

2 minutes ago, CTrojan88 said:

If Archie is hamstrung, explain this....in yesterday’s game, we cut the lead to 6 with 9 minutes to go.  We had momentum.  Rather than ride the group that got us there, Archie changes 4 of the 5, bringing Brunk, Race, Al and Green into the game.  In 30 seconds, we are back down 11 - game over.  A coach that gets it wouldn’t have done that.  Archie seems to do it all the time....it was very clear once we started playing better competition this season that playing 10-11 guys was not going to work.  Archie hinted at knowing this but never really changed his approach.  For me, all signs point to him being in over his head against better teams and coaches that he faced at Dayton.

Yep, for sure. That’s why I said it’s getting more difficult for me to pick a side when it comes to players/coach. Early I was all in on thinking it has everything to do with the players, but things like the point you mentioned make me take steps away from thinking it’s all on the players. I think i remember someone mentioning on here that it’s Ostrom who is responsible for the sub patterns we see...if thats the case why the heck can’t Archie put a stop to it? Unless he sees no harm in any of it, which is definitely an issue. Even if he does have an issue, he isn’t doing anything about it.  

[Seeking6]

14 minutes ago, IUFLA said:

It's not that I don't understand that point of view...I simply don't agree with it. Let Archie have at least one graduating class, then we'll make the assessment.

What we need are Luka Garza types (I know I prattle on about the kid, but it's one of the more inspiring stories I've witnessed watching B10 basketball). Kids who get in the gym and work tirelessly to make themselves better...kids who hustle and run their guts out to get back on D. Watch Garza play sometime...he doesn't take any plays off...he might not be the most athletic kid in the B10, but no one has his motor...

I think Anthony Leal is that type of kid...Galloway too...not sure about Jordan Geronimo, but I'm hopeful...

And I think were it not for injuries, Hunter and Phinisee are those types of kids too...

And we already know about TJD and Joey Brunk...

 

 

And that's the hard part. I agree with your assessment and sometime today I will completely disagree with it. We had an entire week to prepare for a not very good Purdue team and that's what we rolled out? What I saw yesterday is the very reason coaches in all sports (college or pro) are let go. The message isn't being received and the coach isn't changing. 

[FW_Hoosier]

12 hours ago, Seeking6 said:

Thank the lord that message board opinions represent less than 1/10th of 1/10th. Not saying there isn't frustration but you can't keep hiring and firing. Shame on the 10 fans who keep this thread going. 

Every single IU fan I talked to yesterday said some variation of “fire Archie into the sun.”  This was his Syracuse game.

[NotIThatLives]

5 minutes ago, rico said:

The same Bob Huggins that was 15-21 last year?

Yes.  I'm driving now.  He's had major transfers, injuries, and discipline removals and typically keeps on ticking.  

[MrsStoller]

9 hours ago, ButlerHoosier said:

I honestly wish I could tell you. I only have my guesses from my mile high view point. I think it first was the APR which meant that Archie had to keep players he wanted to let walk. Then cause Archie had to keep those players he had to cater to keeping them and not do anything to rock the boat too much and let them walk away. Which I think the AD is still doing to Archie right now forcing Archie to cater to the players instead of allowing him to run his program the way he wants to. Couple that with the bare cupboard that Crean left us when he started not caring about recruiting and academics meant a perfect storm for Archie. All of these circumstances means no accountability poor leadership and a bad culture aka handcuffing Archie. I understand everyone thinks I am making an excuse. First I am not an Archie fan when he was hired. I thought we could pull someone else. After hearing other peoples thoughts I think we were turned down by other coaches cause our AD office is one of the most difficult to work with which runs coaches off. I am definitely not happy about everything but hearing that there is still major locker room chemistry issues from leadership on down and that leadership isn't acting like a leader leads to poor play on the players not the coaches part. There is only so much Archie can do. I just can't buy the idea that Archie has changed into a very poor and weak coach that loses his teams because he has come to a Power 5 conference and without a cause. A zebra just doesn't change its stripes. A basketball player and coach just doesn't change his core morals and DNA. Look at Archies career. Look at Dayton. Look at the type of player Archie was and the type of players he recruited. Look at the type of play that was established there. Yes subpar 3 point defense and offense. But even though that was a flaw they still became ranked and were starting to make deeper runs in tournament and with subpar talent against better teams and sometimes not even a player over 6'6".  Not a fluke. While he was an assistant for his brother he was an expert recruiter that brought in a top 10 class and a good game tactician. At Dayton he was in the running for national coach of the year one year. How can all of that as a coach be reduced to this poor play and poor coaching? So everyone thinks a former runner in the national coach of the year is now exposed cause he is in a better league? His teams out toughed other teams with lesser talent and a better game plan. That is the only way they won. He instilled that in his teams and demanded that from his players. Now he can't do that with his teams here. I really do wonder why cause this seems way out of character. Once again I think there are outside forces that have lead to a bad culture and Archie is stuck babysitting this mess instead of allowing to be a coach. One example that my conspiracy theory mind is going on about...remember Mr. Smith last year speaking so poorly about Archie and how he is mistreating and misusing his son? Well look who is playing the 3 this year even though everyone knows he should be playing the 4. He is a college 4 that can't space the floor very well. He reminds me of Brandon Dawson from MSU. Yet he is playing the 3 this year. I personally don't think there is a coincidence there. I know this isn't a very popular opinion and most likely will be roasted for my opinion but I honestly think there is even more to the story than what I can surmise. I honestly think he gets next year. I would be very surprised to see how this team performs next year. Sorry about the novel.

Don’t be sorry about the novel - I appreciate your thoughtful response.  I agree with much of what you say. Archie was a proven good coach at Dayton, and I don’t think changing conferences changes that. I like Archie. Having never actually played the game, I don’t always get the intricacies of ball movement, offense/defense patterns, etc. But I get a lot of what it takes to win the game and know that passion, energy, shot selection, among others are crucial in any game.  I liked when CAM threw the towel down during a game :).  I like when our crowd raises the roof by cheering “Defense!”.  I’d be all in for a few technicals :).

I get that it gets to be not fun watching a team play with less energy than we’d like to see but honestly it’s getting really tiring seeing post after post calling for a new coach after a loss or the (what seems at times to be) excessive calling out of individual players by name. I don’t even want to read a thread when we lose tbh.  When IU wins, it’s sunshine and roses on Twitter and sports threads. Maybe part of that is just the nature of the beast of social media and the ability to convey instantly our emotions. I don’t know; I’ve kind of started rambling and I apologize.  I understand how the play of individual guys can be better, but if I’m in college, and I’m a kid with all this instant social media around me, and there are people not in the locker rooms or on the practice court saying all these things, I don’t know... it would probably get to me. And that bothers me as a parent. Maybe I just need food this morning, and more coffee.

[IUFLA]

17 minutes ago, Seeking6 said:

And that's the hard part. I agree with your assessment and sometime today I will completely disagree with it. We had an entire week to prepare for a not very good Purdue team and that's what we rolled out? What I saw yesterday is the very reason coaches in all sports (college or pro) are let go. The message isn't being received and the coach isn't changing. 

I disagree with the "Purdue not being very good" part. I think the Northwestern game woke them up a little. Then they absolutely destroyed a good (and ranked) Iowa team. Purdue has been up and down this year, but I think they're finding their stride. I might make sport of ol Porkchop once in awhile, but the guy can coach.

College and or coaches aren't let go because of one game or knee-jerk reactions from fans.

Archie should be judged after being given a full and fair chance. If, at the end of his first full recruiting class's senior year, he's still struggling, I'll say "fire up the search committee."

But not until...

[rico]

11 minutes ago, IUFLA said:

I disagree with the "Purdue not being very good" part. I think the Northwestern game woke them up a little. Then they absolutely destroyed a good (and ranked) Iowa team. Purdue has been up and down this year, but I think they're finding their stride. I might make sport of ol Porkchop once in awhile, but the guy can coach.

 

That is something that needs to be said.  Purdue is a good team and has a very good coach.

[Fiveoutofsix]

8 minutes ago, IUFLA said:

I disagree with the "Purdue not being very good" part. I think the Northwestern game woke them up a little. Then they absolutely destroyed a good (and ranked) Iowa team. Purdue has been up and down this year, but I think they're finding their stride. I might make sport of ol Porkchop once in awhile, but the guy can coach.

College and or coaches aren't let go because of one game or knee-jerk reactions from fans.

Archie should be judged after being given a full and fair chance. If, at the end of his first full recruiting class's senior year, he's still struggling, I'll say "fire up the search committee."

But not until...

Purdue plays in your face defense and goes to the basket strong with the ball, and makes hard cuts and screens off the ball.  Indiana does not.  

It's becoming clear that the team is regressing and is loosing grit.  How many unforced turnovers and easy back door or pins were created yesterday?  How many one arm "throws" to the basket were made by IU by anyone who got in the paint?

A poster stated that when IU got to 6 points down, Archie subs 3-4 guys and with in a minute down 11.  

 

[IndySportsPartizan]

50 minutes ago, IUCrazy2 said:

I have seen people pull out the "it takes 4 years" card, but can you show me any wildly successful coach that was showing zero signs of life until year 5?  Year 4 the team is completely his.  "Well he was forced to keep the Crean recruits..."  OK, bu he was still their coach for their entire time at IU and he has played the 2 that are left a whole bunch of minutes.

Some of you just keep pushing this window further and further back because you have the battered fan syndrome.  Our fanbase has become a Pearl Jam song..."Can't find a better maaaaaan...."  If we tank this year and are mediocre again next, Miller is not the guy.  I would argue that if we miss the tournament again this year we might as well move on because recruiting is dead at that point.  But he will get a year four where every loss becomes a referendum on his job by the majority of the fanbase.  When you get to that point you are done.  And if you are not pretty successful in year 4, what does another year give you?

Beilein, Boeheim, Altman, Drew, Pearl, Bennett, Wright, Coach K

[Brass Cannon]

34 minutes ago, FW_Hoosier said:

Every single IU fan I talked to yesterday said some variation of “fire Archie into the sun.”  This was his Syracuse game.

Was at Les mis and at Intermission in the line for the bathroom the general tone was not positive for Archie. 
 

Year 3 without any signs of Improvement. Hell even Tom Crean didn’t fail that bad. And Creans team was young with a stud coming in year 4. Were fairly old with a bunch of projects next year. 

[Fiveoutofsix]

1 minute ago, IndySportsPartizan said:

Beilein, Boeheim, Altman, Drew, Pearl, Bennett, Wright, Coach K

Glass had 3-4 candidates, quality candidates, in the Hall yesterday.  Instead of being a sponge and having meetings with them he was taking pictures with Dickey V and made sure to sit next to Cuban.  

He needs to pick the brains of people who has passion for IU and wants nothing more than success.  He promised during the interview process, and it has been reported came up short.

Now that the IU family has started the healing process, its time to strike and put a leader who cares about the past, present and future.

[Brass Cannon]

4 minutes ago, IndySportsPartizan said:

Beilein, Boeheim, Altman, Drew, Pearl, Bennett, Wright, Coach K

Several of those made the tourney before year 4. Bennett and and Beilein off the top of my head. And college basketball is radically different since K was hired. 

[13th&Jackson]

19 minutes ago, IUFLA said:

 

College and or coaches aren't let go because of one game or knee-jerk reactions from fans.

Archie should be judged after being given a full and fair chance. If, at the end of his first full recruiting class's senior year, he's still struggling, I'll say "fire up the search committee."

But not until...

I've been in this camp, but here's my major concern.

In CAM's first game, IN ST came to AH and shot 17-26 3s in that game. Starters were Newkirk, Johnson, Morgan, Davis & Green. A couple weeks later, the mighty FW Mastadons shot 17-30 3s in AH. Starters were the same except Durham instead of Green.

Yesterday, PU, a team that had been shooting 25% on the road from 3, was 8-16. IU starters were TJD, Smith, Brunk, RP & Durham.

Last home game, MD, one of the worst 3 pt shooting teams in the big was 12-29 in AH, 10% above their avg. Same starters as yesterday. The only personnel consistency is Durham & Green off the bench to more than 2+ years ago. Either Durham is the worst perimeter defender in the history of basketball and he has a contagious virus or there is a problem with the defensive scheme and/or personnel recruited to execute it.

[IUCrazy2]

6 minutes ago, IndySportsPartizan said:

Beilein, Boeheim, Altman, Drew, Pearl, Bennett, Wright, Coach K

Coach K was 24-10 in year 4.  It did not take him 5.

John Beilein, I am not sure which stop you are talking about for him but at West Virginia he was 24-11 and made the Elite 8 in year 3 and at Michigan he won over 20 games in year 2 and 4 and made the tournament each year.  Didn't take him 5 either.

Jim Boeheim you are way off.  He won 22 or more games each of his first 5 seasons at Syracuse.  He made the Sweet 16 3 of those years, Round of 32 once, and was NIT runner up once.

Altman, I will give you that it took awhile to get Creighton going, but when he got to Oregon he was in the Sweet 16 in year 3.  Did not take 5 years for him to show signs of life there.

Drew took a long time to get going.  He also is reportedly a guy who started cheating (if you believe the rumor mill) to turn that around.  I will give you Drew.

Pearl has bounced around a bit so I am not going to go over every stop, but that guy was winning by end of year 4 at every stop.  His most recent stint at Auburn being the only one that really took that long.

Bennett, whether looking at Washington St. or Virginia, he had made the tournament by year 3 at each location.

Wright was in the Sweet 16 in year 4.  It dis not take him 5 years either.

So out of all of the outlier examples you provided, only Scott Drew took longer than 5 years to get it going at his Power 5 school.  And we know from the Hanner Perea stuff what he had to do in order to change his fortunes.  So after looking at all of these guys, we should have expected to see some sign of life by now or we should be expecting that a team has been built for next year that should be capable of making it to the second weekend of the NCAA tournament.

Things could turn around, but would you bet on that happening right now?

[IU878176]

27 minutes ago, IndySportsPartizan said:

Beilein, Boeheim, Altman, Drew, Pearl, Bennett, Wright, Coach K

The poster asked “if you are not pretty successful in year 4 what does another year give you” and you listed these coaches. I agree with that poster that it does not make sense to go past 4 years if we don’t have some success (ie at least be in the tourney). The coaches you listed....

Boeheim made the tourney each of his first 4 years and made the sweet 16 in three of those 4 years. 

Bennett was in the sweet 16 his 4th year.

 Coach K made the second round in his fourth year

Pearl made the tourney 2 of his first four years at UW Milwaukee including a sweet 16. He then made the tourney all 6 years he was at Tennessee including 2 sweet 16’s in his first three years followed by an Elite 8. 

Wright took Nova to the sweet 16 in year 4

Altman was hired from a mid-major, like Archie, and took Oregon to the sweet 16 in his third year

Beilein went from mid-major Richmond to West Virginia and in his first three years took West Virginia to an Elite 8 and a sweet 16. He made the tourney 2 of his first 4 years at Michigan.

Heck, even Crean inherited Kyle Tabor and Brett Finklemeier but went to the sweet 16 in his 4th year.

 

 

[IUCrazy2]

1 hour ago, FW_Hoosier said:

Every single IU fan I talked to yesterday said some variation of “fire Archie into the sun.”  This was his Syracuse game.

Agree.  Usually after losses you could find people that would give him the benefit of the doubt, laying an egg yesterday with a bunch of the people who are more fair weather tuning in to see Knight shined a bright light on him and the team and they failed miserably.

[IUCrazy2]

6 minutes ago, IU878176 said:

The poster asked “if you are not pretty successful in year 4 what does another year give you” and you listed these coaches. I agree with that poster that it does not make sense to go past 4 years if we don’t have some success (ie at least be in the tourney). The coaches you listed....

Boeheim made the tourney each of his first 4 years and made the sweet 16 in three of those 4 years. 

Bennett was in the sweet 16 his 4th year.

 Coach K made the second round in his fourth year

Pearl made the tourney 2 of his first four years at UW Milwaukee including a sweet 16. He then made the tourney all 6 years he was at Tennessee including 2 sweet 16’s in his first three years followed by an Elite 8. 

Wright took Nova to the sweet 16 in year 4

Altman was hired from a mid-major, like Archie, and took Oregon to the sweet 16 in his third year

Beilein went from mid-major Richmond to West Virginia and in his first three years took West Virginia to an Elite 8 and a sweet 16. He made the tourney 2 of his first 4 years at Michigan.

Heck, even Crean inherited Kyle Tabor and Brett Finklemeier and went to the sweet 16 in his 4th year.

 

 

Great minds and all that.

[Fiveoutofsix]

21 minutes ago, IUCrazy2 said:

Agree.  Usually after losses you could find people that would give him the benefit of the doubt, laying an egg yesterday with a bunch of the people who are more fair weather tuning in to see Knight shined a bright light on him and the team and they failed miserably.

Its one thing to loose, its another to have the body language of going through the motions.  When a rival comes to your court and they out hustle you its a red flag.  When you have extra juice in the building, teams generally would want to run through the wall to do what it takes.  This team does not have that personality and that is on the coach.  You can see with some of them a brief hesitation to go after a ball for 50/50, they almost wait to see if the other team dives first.  

That is what is disappointing.  The fans that spent 1,000s for tickets made 5+ hr drives, changed around schedules to watch them on the tube.....and do watch being out hustled.  That is disappointing.

[dbmhoosier]

Here’s the point guys.  If we miss the tourney this season it’s all over.  The 2021 class is dead.  What could Archie possibly sell them on?  Lander, Furst, and Kaufman please come to IU.  There’s about a 50% chance or slightly less that I’ll be the coach when you arrive.  And if not IUs last 4 coaches were Davis, Sampson, Crean and myself.  So even if I’m fired IU is guaranteed to make a splash hire so you’ll be in good hands either way.  I mean cmon.  It’s over if we’re not in the dance.