It’s time... Fire Archie Miller

[IUrocker]

1 minute ago, IU Scott said:

I am more worried with transfers if Archie comes back than if he left.

Right that’s what I’m saying. I could definitely see kids stay at IU to play for his replacement instead of leaving if he gets fired. 

[IUFLA]

Just now, Feathery said:

Brunk doesn’t make us a tournament team and a heathy Armaan doesn’t change the outcome vs Michigan, Michigan State, and the loss coming this weekend to Purdue. Still miss the tournament with both healthy IMO. 

There's no way to know that...Armaan was an important piece for us on both ends of the floor...Maybe he could have handled Henry better than we did...

And the depth and flexibility that Joey Brunk would have provided was very important...Again, no way to know, but you can't say it didn't impact our season...

[go_iu_bb]

14 minutes ago, IUFLA said:

That was my statement...Race is not mentioned in that sentence...
I'll just ask, do you think the injuries to Joey and Armaan have impacted our season?

Your full post:

52 minutes ago, IUFLA said:

Yes on the first...He would have been getting at least some game time and a lot of practice time in those 3 months...And I'm of the mind every game and every practice is valuable in a player's development...

To the second, no...

But that's why I DID bring it up...

I keep hearing injuries are no excuse...yes they are...they're a very valid excuse...if they aren't, then this fanbase should shut up about 75 and 93...

 

 

That was in response to a post about Thompson's injury 2 years ago. No indication you weren't still talking about Thompson at the end and certainly no mention of Franklin or Brunk there.

As for Franklin and Brunk:

Franklin - yes, but IU has played pretty poorly in the games he missed so I don't know if his contribution would-be been enough. Losing a starter and your second best player does hurt.

Brunk - not really. If a guy that should be seeing 10 mpg off the bench being injured ruins a season, the team has huge issues.

Also, neither Franklin's nor Brunk's injuries are on the level of impact as May's or Henderson's.

[Feathery]

Just now, IUFLA said:

Scott, I understand that...But that razor thin line we're walking in some of these games are going to be the difference between going to the tournament and not going...And if we had those winds and were solidly in, even at a 9 or 10 seed, the fire Archie drumbeat wouldn't be as loud...

It’s year 4, it shouldn’t be IF this or that happened we would be in. It should be we had injuries and still got in being a bubble team. I’ll give you the team is young. But why is it year 4 and we are one of the youngest teams in the conference? The coach has preached get old and stay old but in 4 years his roster is actually younger. The problems lay at the feet of the head coach. He is out of excuses for so many people. We will find out if he is out of them to those that matter soon enough. 

[Feathery]

1 minute ago, IUFLA said:

There's no way to know that...Armaan was an important piece for us on both ends of the floor...Maybe he could have handled Henry better than we did...

And the depth and flexibility that Joey Brunk would have provided was very important...Again, no way to know, but you can't say it didn't impact our season...

Then there is no way for you to say that it did impact our season. See it goes both ways. 

If we went into the season so thin on the roster, then maybe Archie should have used those scholarships he had on his pocket. No way around it, Archie has done a poor job at IU. I really wish Archie would run the tables and turn it around, but nothing in 4 years indicates that he is up for this job. A single big win here and there isn’t good enough. 

[BADGERVOL]

1 hour ago, AxnJxn said:

That's fine, and I get it. As I said, heads are going to explode. The 2012-13 team was a much better team overall, obviously. The point is more that this team has more talent than people think, IMO, especially if TJD returns. Secondary point was that there aren't any home run hires being mentioned in this thread. 

Look at what the 2012-13 team was on the floor in 2011-12 compared to this years team.

this team totally SUCKS. So an astronomical improvement would put them in the top 4-5 in conference. Congrats...in year FIVE of a rebuild we have finally reached what should be an AVERAGE year for IU.

Translation: “The Experiment” is over. Archie failed. Time for a new start for both sides. 

[NCHoosier32]

1 hour ago, AxnJxn said:

Folks, some reading comprehension here. I wasn't comparing this current team to 12/13. I'm comparing the potential of these players next year to those in 12/13. I hope you realize that what you are saying is that there's is absolutely no chance, across the board, that any of these current players can improve enough to be comparable to those 12/13 guys. 

Yogi/Lander ... this was Yogi's freshman year, Lander will be in year 2, and they were both 5 star recruits.

Hulls/AF ... I appreciate that Hulls was a terrific shooter and a leader. AF can play defense, rebound, and drive to the hole, all things where Hulls was below average at best, and that's current AF, not AF after another offseason of work. He's clearly shown the ability to put in the work to improve.

VO/Hunter ... yeah, no real comparison here, and I understand that. Jerome would have to make a major jump for this to be comparable.

Race/Watford ... obviously shooting is a major difference. But, Christian didn't have much of an inside game or a presence on the boards, which Race has, at least a little bit. Still, I'd likely give the edge to Watford here, unless Race really develops an outside shot.

Cody/TJD ... their stats currently are fairly similar, and Cody was playing on a much better team and not commanding a double team every time he touched the ball. Another year of work for TJD could make this very comparable.

I appreciate the responses and that you think I'm crazy, and if I were comparing this current team to 12/13 I would agree, but you're not really responding to what I'm saying. 

i think IUCrazy2 summarized very well that the age/experience comparisons are actually already very close in your match-ups

[IUFLA]

1 minute ago, go_iu_bb said:

That was in response to a post about Thompson's injury 2 years ago. No indication you weren't still talking about Thompson at the end and certainly no mention of Franklin or Brunk there.

It was a general statement about injuries and whether they were an excuse or not...

 

2 minutes ago, go_iu_bb said:

Brunk - not really. If a guy that should be seeing 10 mpg off the bench being injured ruins a season, the team has huge issues.

I would guarantee you if you asked Juwan Howard how much of an impact it would have been if Austin Davis was taken away for the whole year, he'd have said it was big...

[Feathery]

Just now, IUFLA said:

 

I would guarantee you if you asked Juwan Howard how much of an impact it would have been if Austin Davis was taken away for the whole year, he'd have said it was big...

You simply don’t know that Howard would say that. Do you converse with him regularly? Know his thinking and how he rates his players? Those are your feelings, not facts. 

[IUFLA]

2 minutes ago, Feathery said:

Then there is no way for you to say that it did impact our season. See it goes both ways. 

If we went into the season so thin on the roster, then maybe Archie should have used those scholarships he had on his pocket. No way around it, Archie has done a poor job at IU. I really wish Archie would run the tables and turn it around, but nothing in 4 years indicates that he is up for this job. A single big win here and there isn’t good enough. 

So our 2nd leading scorer being out/hobbled most of the conference season had no impact on our season? A senior contributor and leader being out didn't affect our season?

 

[IowaHoosierFan]

6 hours ago, cybergates said:

Wonder if Archie does anything like this?

https://www.espn.com/mens-college-basketball/story/_/id/31007359/draymond-green-video-fires-michigan-clinch-big-ten-men-basketball-title-vs-michigan-state

 

So i read this article and then scrolled down.  I saw 2 IU pay wall articles..  One about the hot seat and one about IU's chance as a bubble team. 

 

[Seeking6]

10 minutes ago, Feathery said:

Brunk doesn’t make us a tournament team and a heathy Armaan doesn’t change the outcome vs Michigan, Michigan State, and the loss coming this weekend to Purdue. Still miss the tournament with both healthy IMO. 

What was the score of IU/Sparty game when Armaan went out with his 4th foul halfway into 2nd half? Him not being on the court via foul trouble or injuries was huge. 

Won't know Brunk impact but from what I saw last year....he helps not hurts our team which means at the minimum 1-2 more wins especially considering we have OT losses to FSU, Wisconsin, and Illinois. 

[go_iu_bb]

16 minutes ago, NCHoosier32 said:

franklin is not a Hulls type shooter

The 45% Franklin has shot from 3 this year would be Hulls' 2nd best season at close to the same volume for 3 of Hulls' seasons. Hulls was a much better FT shooter but got to the line less so Franklin's FT made per game matches Hulls' best.

So his numbers this season compare favorably to Hulls. Sure, in a game of HORSE I'd take Hulls over Franklin but the shooting gap isn't that great.

[AxnJxn]

12 minutes ago, BADGERVOL said:

Look at what the 2012-13 team was on the floor in 2011-12 compared to this years team.

this team totally SUCKS. So an astronomical improvement would put them in the top 4-5 in conference. Congrats...in year FIVE of a rebuild we have finally reached what should be an AVERAGE year for IU.

Translation: “The Experiment” is over. Archie failed. Time for a new start for both sides. 

Well, (1) I think we'd all agree this team has underachieved, (2) this team has pretty much played the majority of the season without two important players, in AF and Brunk, and (3) if you're returning all of those guys, I don't think top 4-5 in the conference would be sufficient - that group should be competing for the title, especially when you consider that the top teams this year are pretty heavy with upperclassmen or guys who are likely going pro. If they fall short of that, I think you definitely have your answer on CAM, and hopefully better options on the coaching front after next season. 

You've already made your decision on CAM. I get it, and you're not alone - the majority of this board wants him gone. I'm simply not 100% there yet, partly because of the potential for next year and also based on the names being thrown out as replacements. Other than the Stevens pipe dream or Drew/Beilein, I'm not seeing a whole lot to get excited about.

[IUCrazy2]

1 hour ago, IUFLA said:

Wisconsin mainly recruits out of the RSCI top 100 and liberally uses the redshirt...So does Purdue...

The recruiting whining alone makes that impossible here...You're telling me this fan base who gets apoplectic over everything the Archie and the program does would be excited about getting Mr RSCI 250, red shirting him, and having him contribute when he's 24? 

 

Excited?  No, they wouldn't be touting them as the center piece, but adding a guy like that, if you are recruiting your top 11 positions well, would be just fine with everyone.  Why would I be mad about using scholarship 12 and 13 for developmental guys?  That is more useful then them sitting unused year over year. 

[Seeking6]

40 minutes ago, Feathery said:

Only 10 more made shots (bunnies and free throws) a game and we have a different W/L? Only 17 points! Sorry I know what you’re saying but found it funny. So basically we are 1990’s Northwestern. All they needed was an additional 17 points a game. 

I know how it sounds and reads....but yes 17 points a game in those 2 things. 19-6 vs 12-13 or so. Just making bunnies and a couple more free throws. That's the part that is most infuriating to me. Layups and free throws for the coaches on here. They do add up. 

[BADGERVOL]

9 minutes ago, AxnJxn said:

Well, (1) I think we'd all agree this team has underachieved, (2) this team has pretty much played the majority of the season without two important players, in AF and Brunk, and (3) if you're returning all of those guys, I don't think top 4-5 in the conference would be sufficient - that group should be competing for the title, especially when you consider that the top teams this year are pretty heavy with upperclassmen or guys who are likely going pro. If they fall short of that, I think you definitely have your answer on CAM, and hopefully better options on the coaching front after next season. 

You've already made your decision on CAM. I get it, and you're not alone - the majority of this board wants him gone. I'm simply not 100% there yet, partly because of the potential for next year and also based on the names being thrown out as replacements. Other than the Stevens pipe dream or Drew/Beilein, I'm not seeing a whole lot to get excited about.

We would see signs by now. I will totally concede it is POSSIBLE Archie would still pan out if given another few years. But the OVERWHELMING evidence points to the contrary. 
 

One of the many factors you’re not including is the mental. Crean had the program consistently trending UP by the time they got to 2012-13. The players were behind him, experienced, hungry and VERY confident. You don’t “create” all that by kicking the can another year from a complete dumpster fire of a three year stretch. 
 

This team and program is so dysfunctional and NOT unified...being a team that can win things requires some talent at a minimum, but it also requires things this team is so far from...it can’t be built in a single off season. This program has no culture for crying out loud. For all the reasons I couldn’t stand Crean and I’m glad he’s gone, he at least established a culture. Good lord we are garbage. And I LIKE Archie. 🤨🤷🏻‍♂️🤦🏻‍♂️

[AxnJxn]

4 minutes ago, BADGERVOL said:

We would see signs by now. I will totally concede it is POSSIBLE Archie would still pan out if given another few years. But the OVERWHELMING evidence points to the contrary. 
 

One of the many factors you’re not including is the mental. Crean had the program consistently trending UP by the time they got to 2012-13. The players were behind him, experienced, hungry and VERY confident. You don’t “create” all that by kicking the can another year from a complete dumpster fire of a three year stretch. 
 

This team and program is so dysfunctional and NOT unified...being a team that can win things requires some talent at a minimum, but it also requires things this team is so far from...it can’t be built in a single off season. This program has no culture for crying out loud. For all the reasons I couldn’t stand Crean and I’m glad he’s gone, he at least established a culture. Good lord we are garbage. And I LIKE Archie. 🤨🤷🏻‍♂️🤦🏻‍♂️

That's a very fair point on the culture, and I'd agree, and it could also be difficult to rally a team after a year like this one. But, that can also be a kind of lightning rod for a team, too, depending on if someone steps up as a leader on this team and galvanizes the rest. I also get the point that CAM has failed miserably to this point, the player development isn't where it should be, so there's no real logic in expecting things to change in year 5.

I guess I'm just looking at these other options and not all that enthused. Seemed like the last time we did this, there were a handful of rising mid majors and a couple of big fish that we were trying to land. This time ... meh. 

[NCHoosier32]

3 minutes ago, AxnJxn said:

That's a very fair point on the culture, and I'd agree, and it could also be difficult to rally a team after a year like this one. But, that can also be a kind of lightning rod for a team, too, depending on if someone steps up as a leader on this team and galvanizes the rest. I also get the point that CAM has failed miserably to this point, the player development isn't where it should be, so there's no real logic in expecting things to change in year 5.

I guess I'm just looking at these other options and not all that enthused. Seemed like the last time we did this, there were a handful of rising mid majors and a couple of big fish that we were trying to land. This time ... meh. 

i'm thinking you need to be having this discussion on the Get behind Archie Miller thread!  i have been over there trying to get it going more.  

[Steubenhoosier]

2 hours ago, go_iu_bb said:

Race Thompson is Miller's 1st recruit and this is his 4th season. So this isn't true even though Thompson is only a junior as far as eligibility.

He sat out one of those years.

[BGleas]

They just posted the senior speeches on the IU Basketball Facebook Page. 

To me, this is one of my bigger issues with the program right now, the lack of energy and enthusiasm, and IMO the senior speeches are a microcosm of that. 

Both Durham and Cooper Bybee barely even mentioned Archie. Durham said his name once and then spent more time thanking Clif Marshall. 

Bybee didn't even say Archie's name, but gave a personal thank you to the coach of the school he transfered from. 

Same as the last 3 years, there just seems to be something off here. Remember Juwan Morgan's speech? It was almost awkward, he talked more about Devonte Green convincing him not to transfer than anything else and barely mentioned Archie. This is the coach who gave him the stage to become an NBA player. 

It seems like the lack of effort at times, and the lackof enthusiasm and passion can be tied to the apparent lack of relationships that exist between the players and the staff, Archie in particular. 

 

[Steubenhoosier]

1 hour ago, IUFLA said:

Yes on the first...He would have been getting at least some game time and a lot of practice time in those 3 months...And I'm of the mind every game and every practice is valuable in a player's development...

To the second, no...

But that's why I DID bring it up...

I keep hearing injuries are no excuse...yes they are...they're a very valid excuse...if they aren't, then this fanbase should shut up about 75 and 93...

 

 

Funny how injuries to Henderson, Coverdale, May, Kitchel and Landon Turner are brought up in the discussions on what might have been, but yet injuries over the last few years aren't important.

[go_iu_bb]

1 minute ago, Steubenhoosier said:

He sat out one of those years.

He redshirted so he still practiced and earned experience against college players while learning the system. He's academically a senior. He's been in the team for 4 years.

[Steubenhoosier]

1 hour ago, IU Scott said:

I always said a coach needs 4 years before judging and this is the end of year 4.  So to me it is time to judge to see if he should keep his job and to me he has proven that he is not the right guy to coach here.

not what you have said at all when it comes to Coach K and Wooden, among others.

[Steubenhoosier]

1 hour ago, Feathery said:

Brunk doesn’t make us a tournament team and a heathy Armaan doesn’t change the outcome vs Michigan, Michigan State, and the loss coming this weekend to Purdue. Still miss the tournament with both healthy IMO. 

in your opinion