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Beilein on Archie: It's all About Culture


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10 minutes ago, The Daily Hoosier said:
What's it going to take for Archie to truly turn this thing around? We asked someone that should know better than most.
 

Culture is a lot of it and this team is "soft" and "scared".

I believe the coaching staff needs to go out to the Jucos and bring in the best cold-blooded 3 pt SG and a 240 lb PF with a nasty attitude for next season. if you can find that in grad transfers, fine, but you could have the Jucos for two seasons (helping to balance the classes) while the younger guys mature.

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19 minutes ago, The Daily Hoosier said:
What's it going to take for Archie to truly turn this thing around? We asked someone that should know better than most.
 

Thanks for posting this. Mentioned in this post game thread. Takes 2-3 full recruiting classes to develop a culture....and that's if you hit on all those recruits. 

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28 minutes ago, The Daily Hoosier said:
What's it going to take for Archie to truly turn this thing around? We asked someone that should know better than most.
 

Great article.  Three things I will say:

1) It just goes to show you that the public outcry for a coach being fired goes on at every big program.

2) It’s going to take some time to develop the culture, and unfortunately some of that is going to have to come through roster turnover.

3) Coaches and people who have been in the thick of it (Beilein, Odle, etc), realize some of the patience it takes, and they realize that there’s no magic wand you can wave to fix it.  If there was CAM would have already done it.

Edited by StLHoosier
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13 minutes ago, StLHoosier said:

Great article.  Three things I will say:

1) It just goes to show you that the public outcry for a coach being fired goes on at every big program.

2) It’s going to take some time to develop the culture, and unfortunately some of that is going to have to come through roster turnover.

3) Coaches and people who have been in the thick of it (Beilein, Odle, etc), realize some of the patience it takes, and they realize that there’s no magic wand you can wave to fix it.  If there was CAM would have already done it.

There isn't one soph. or jr. on this team that would be missed, turn over the roster. Play a bunch of soph's and freshman next season. The sooner we scrape off the Crean culture the better.

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Just now, Indykev said:

There isn't one soph. or jr. on this team that would be missed, turn over the roster. Play a bunch of soph's and freshman next season. The sooner we scrape off the Crean culture the better.

I tend to agree, however I think we should move on from any player that stands in the way of building the culture.  Hypothetically, if Romeo was in the way of building this culture, he tell him to go pro and that there is no spot for him.  My point is that culture is way more important than a 1-2 year player with rare skills.  You cannot win if your one and done players are not on board with your coaching approach, and Jay Wright identified this on his way to 2 NCs.  

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9 minutes ago, Indykev said:

There isn't one soph. or jr. on this team that would be missed, turn over the roster. Play a bunch of soph's and freshman next season. The sooner we scrape off the Crean culture the better.

I would miss Al.  I think Al is worth keeping around and actually has been one of the few players playing with some form of fire lately.

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I really like how Beilein mentions other teams have to have "down" times for other teams to jump them. Being a fan for so many years, this is something that isn't often talked about but is so very important, and maybe the most important thing when trying to reestablish yourself at the top of the mountain. You look at the ages of the current Big 10 coaches:

John Beilein: 65
Tom Izzo: 64 (in 3 days)
Fran McCaffery: 59
Brad Underwood: 55
Mark Turgeon: 53
Tim Miles: 52
Steve Pikiell: 51
Pat Chambers: 48
Greg Gard: 48
Matt Painter: 48
Chris Holtman: 47
Chris Collins: 44
Archie Miller: 40
Richard Pitino: 36

We are well positioned regards to Michigan & Michigan St. because Izzo & Beilein are in their mid-60s, but they could both still coach for 5-6 more years and unless you start recruiting age against those guys then they aren't going away & there aren't any other schools they are leaving for either. Negative recruiting against age hasn't worked out so well against other coaches though such as Mike Krzyzewski (71) & Roy Williams (68). If you use 71 as a ceiling, Izzo is around for 7 more years while Beilein has 6 more. Turgeon, Gard, Painter, & Holtman are here for the long haul unfortunately. If you believe that right now Maryland, Wisconsin, Purdue & Ohio State are ahead of Indiana then at BEST Archie is trying to overcome 6 other schools. 

Admittedly I don't know much about Tim Miles, Chris Collins, Richard Pitino and their ambitions but I don't see any of the 3 as long term solutions to their current programs because Nebraska, Northwestern & Minnesota don't seem like destination schools and none of those aforementioned 3 coaches have any emotional/family ties to those universities. I don't regard Rutgers or Penn St. as teams IU would have to rely on having down years in their program. Illinois seems to be quite the mess. 

Archie is a very good basketball coach and everyone seems to think this. But there are a lot of very good basketball coaches in the Big 10. If you have to jump 6-7 programs then maybe 3-4 years is a more realistic time frame?
 

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7 minutes ago, iuthruandthru said:

I would miss Al.  I think Al is worth keeping around and actually has been one of the few players playing with some form of fire lately.

True. Me too.  And I would love to see what a healthy De'Ron Davis would mean to the team as well.  And I stress healthy, as we know he has played much of conference play injured. 

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Great article.  Culture is clearly a problem.  Recruiting isn't just about athletic talent.  Having the right mindset is critical.  Just because a kid can jump high doesn't mean he has the right attitude.  I always say motor would be one of the top things I would look at. But, its even more than motor.  You need to have a certain mental toughness to get past adversity.  It's easy to be a front runner when things go well.  But, who is there to push us through tough times?  Morgan can only do so much in that regard.

We aren't in the locker room or at practice, but it looks like we have some, certainly not all, kids who lack self awareness, who may not have the right mindset surrounded by other kids who may not be triggering problems but aren't tough enough to say we aren't having that.  Beyond that, when things get a bit tough, they fold quickly, other than a small minority of guys (Morgan, Phinisee and Durham).   I bet if we had these kids take a lie detector, they all think it's not them, it's someone else's fault around them.  That's obviously absurd since anyone playing or constantly out of condition and hurt is part of the issue, and I don't care who they are.

So, yes, the roster is incomplete and lacking, which is exacerbated by the massive injury problem, but the lack of a good culture is very clear.

Edited by BobSaccamanno
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My biggest worry is that he isn't looking at the long game of building that culture.  We all know he wants to build his teams around defense and smart basketball, but how many times have we seen a guy jog back on defense, or not hustle, or have multiple dumb turnovers and then not come out.

I think Miller is struggling to find the balance between building his culture and trying to win now.  It seems like he's afraid to pull the starters when they make a mistake because the guys on the bench are worse.  And like Odle said, those guys are there for a reason, but that isn't the point.  This isn't about the few point difference that a short stretch without Romeo, Smith, or whoever might cause.  This is about making a point that lack of hustle and dumb play is not acceptable.  If a manager is the only guy on the bench, you bring in the manager.  The guy on the bench is irrelevant when trying to build that culture and holding players accountable.  The minute guys start getting away with play that goes against that culture is the minute things start going downhill.  If guys don't buy into that, they leave on their own, or they don't play.

Next time Smith or Romeo has a bad turnover and jogs back and gives up an easy layup, they're on the bench for the next 5+ minutes.  I think Miller is focused too much on trying to win now and not trying to win down the road when it really matters.

I think fans would mostly be fine losing if those things were happening.  Let's say he pulls Romeo 2 minutes into a game for multiple lack of hustle plays and sits him for 10 minutes and we lose.  He makes it clear to every person on the team that those types of things aren't acceptable.  Most fans would respect that and understand that it might be necessary to win a game down the road.

In the long run, nobody will care all that much what happened last year or this year.  Next year counts a little bit more, and 2 seasons from now is when it will really matter.  I think he needs to start building for next year and especially the 20-21 season.  For recruiting purposes, that is going to be the year that he probably gets a contract extension or a contract termination.  That's when it really matters.

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5 minutes ago, Leathernecks said:

I think Miller is struggling to find the balance between building his culture and trying to win now.  It seems like he's afraid to pull the starters when they make a mistake because the guys on the bench are worse.  And like Odle said, those guys are there for a reason, but that isn't the point.  This isn't about the few point difference that a short stretch without Romeo, Smith, or whoever might cause.  This is about making a point that lack of hustle and dumb play is not acceptable.  If a manager is the only guy on the bench, you bring in the manager.  The guy on the bench is irrelevant when trying to build that culture and holding players accountable.  The minute guys start getting away with play that goes against that culture is the minute things start going downhill.  If guys don't buy into that, they leave on their own, or they don't play.

Next time Smith or Romeo has a bad turnover and jogs back and gives up an easy layup, they're on the bench for the next 5+ minutes.  I think Miller is focused too much on trying to win now and not trying to win down the road when it really matters.

I think fans would mostly be fine losing if those things were happening.  Let's say he pulls Romeo 2 minutes into a game for multiple lack of hustle plays and sits him for 10 minutes and we lose.  He makes it clear to every person on the team that those types of things aren't acceptable.  Most fans would respect that and understand that it might be necessary to win a game down the road.

I highlighted some of the things I thought were especially important, but I love the tone of the overall comment. Do you (or anyone else) think Archie battles cultural problems from the university itself? There is oftentimes discussion on this board about how when Knight was finally let go, the administration & decision makers never wanted another coach who was bigger than the university. Does Archie battle this perception? I mean, with Knight, it was his way or you didn't play like you said. But I'm not sure Archie can come in here and completely burn the house down like that. He doesn't have the gravitas of a Coach K where kids automatically play 100% all the time (or at least that's the perception). Throw in feeling like you "need to win now" and I'm not sure Archie isn't battling a million different fronts. 

How does a coach bring back a team that if it is at 100% with what fans expectations are, doesn't become bigger than the university? We are talking about the state of Indiana and the game of basketball. It seems like an impossible task.

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And to think we may have gotten Beilein instead of Sampson.  It may not have felt sexy at the time, but man did my face turn hot and my heart sink when I heard we lowered ourselves to Sampson.  

As for Archie's use of the bench, my hope is that he would be using it if he weren't so hamstrung by injuries.  

There was a point in the second half where we had a weird group out there, but they showed more life than the usual suspects did.  If you're going to lose a game, play for the long game, and use the bench to try to get the starters' attention.

Some of Knight's lesser teams (that maxed out at 20-23 wins) teetered on doing much worse than that, but he got them to win with their backs on the wall.  Instead of losing six straight, he may have gone 3-3 or 2-4 in those games.  People like to dog on Coach Knight, but he was a master and it wouldn't hurt Archie to study some of his philosophies.  

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I think one aspect of playing young guys early, if they are not ready, is that it could crush their confidence and growth.

Like a baseball team bringing up a kid from the minors before he is ready. He hits 220 and loses confidence, and may never get it back.

Sending an 18byear old kid out there to get dominated over and over can either make or break a kid. It is up to the coach to know how to handle each individual.

So maybe he is stubborn  maybe the kids really are that far from ready, and maybe he is also protecting them. Which is more forward thinking than some may realize.

I have no idea if this is the case at all. Just an angle to think about.

Every kid is different, and the coach knows their make up better than we do.

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22 minutes ago, bluegrassIU said:

What in insightful article. Beilen also seems like a great person. One of the coaches I have come to admire and respect. His insights carry weight for me, and seem on point.

Could be true....what was the recruiting thing that want on with him and Crean.  There was bad blood there.  He also had Jeff Meyer on his staff who was one od Sampsons guys.

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3 hours ago, 13th&Jackson said:

Culture is a lot of it and this team is "soft" and "scared".

I believe the coaching staff needs to go out to the Jucos and bring in the best cold-blooded 3 pt SG and a 240 lb PF with a nasty attitude for next season. if you can find that in grad transfers, fine, but you could have the Jucos for two seasons (helping to balance the classes) while the younger guys mature.

Agreed. If any guys in the current team are soft then let them walk and go get two like you’re describing 

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2 hours ago, hoosiermd said:

I highlighted some of the things I thought were especially important, but I love the tone of the overall comment. Do you (or anyone else) think Archie battles cultural problems from the university itself? There is oftentimes discussion on this board about how when Knight was finally let go, the administration & decision makers never wanted another coach who was bigger than the university. Does Archie battle this perception? I mean, with Knight, it was his way or you didn't play like you said. But I'm not sure Archie can come in here and completely burn the house down like that. He doesn't have the gravitas of a Coach K where kids automatically play 100% all the time (or at least that's the perception). Throw in feeling like you "need to win now" and I'm not sure Archie isn't battling a million different fronts. 

How does a coach bring back a team that if it is at 100% with what fans expectations are, doesn't become bigger than the university? We are talking about the state of Indiana and the game of basketball. It seems like an impossible task.

This is SO close to what I’ve been wondering and thinking. Sometimes the pressure we put in a coach who has an ideal long term plan can set that process back. 

I still think it’s best to shut up and let a coach have three full years before you get too critical unless it’s crap like large scale behavior problems.

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It absolutely is all about culture. We need to get rid of some guys. Devonte needs to go, he’s the epitome of a crean guy as he lacks control and doesn’t have the winners mentality. De’Ron was a great get in high school, and I had high hopes from him, but I’ve come to the realization he’s never going to be the player most people, including myself thought he was going to be.  Juwan is our best player but he has no leadership. Get with the program or get out. 

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To further comment on my previous post above...this is why I think it is so important for us to land Brooks (hopefully he ignores the negative recruiting that is almost certainly going on about us right now). If we get Brooks and with a healthy Hunter, we will almost assuredly have a starting 5 made up of Archie Miller guys.

Edited by Hoosier987
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2 hours ago, bluegrassIU said:

What in insightful article. Beilen also seems like a great person. One of the coaches I have come to admire and respect. His insights carry weight for me, and seem on point.

I like the way he thinks outside the box as well.  Two examples I shared with my family as we watched the game on Friday were the cloth gardening gloves he had his guys handle the ball with to increase ball handling skills & in 2013 he had his guys shooting over players/mgrs holding brooms to simulate the height and length of the Cuse players before beating them in the tournament.   If any of you guys know of other things that he does as a learning tool for the players, I would appreciate you sharing as I love hearing about stuff like that. 

I look forward to another season or two when CAM has had an opportunity to build his culture into this team.

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