Hoosierhoopster

1 hour ago, BGleas said:

Stop it, you know I watched every game of the Celtics-Raptors series. You know I watch a ton of NBA. In that series OG spent a ton of time spotting up in the corner as Toronto ran their offense through Lowry, Van Vleet and Siakim. 

OG is not an offense creator, yet. If you think he is, then you're not watching. He absolutely, 100% spots up and scores off slashing in their offense. He is not a facilitator of offense yet, Jaylen Brown is. 

Efficiency numbers are great, but until usage rises for OG, its not all that significant. The guy averages 11ppg scoring as a 4th/5th option on his team. 

The biggest leap in the NBA is going from a 10-15ppg secondary option to a legit 20ppg scorer that carries an offensive load, and Jaylen Brown has made that leap, OG hasn't. 

OG is excellent in his role, but he is not yet close to being in the Pascal Siakim, Jaylen Brown, Jayson Tatum conversation. 

Stop it? Wow Gleas. I’ve watched OG create off the dribble multiple times, from the wing. Give me a break. You just keep ignoring that exactly the same things you’re saying about OG after his third year could be said about Kawhi, would you have said then that Brown is better than Kawhi? OG is taking 13 shots, that’s hardly insignificant, any GM looking at that sees he s efficiency. I never said OG has made the “leap” to a 20 point scorer, I said we don’t know, but everything points to his ability to do that and all you do is ignore and downplay it, I get the impression you just can’t admit what the numbers show, that surprises me man, thanks for the stop it though 

2 hours ago, BGleas said:

Yes, at this point OG is a spot up 3 guy and a cutter who scores off of others creating. He's an 11ppg guy that gets baskets off of other guys. The Raptors rarely run offense through him. They run their offense through Lowry, Van Vleet and Siakim, and even Gasol. 

That's not a criticism of OG, he's very good in his role for Toronto. But, Jaylen Brown is a 20ppg scorer on a contending team who is relied upon to create offense along with Tatum and Kemba. Brown has already made the leap we hope OG can make. 

OG is great and I'd love to have him on my team, as I love having Jaylen Brown on my team,, but in terms of comparing the two Brown is what OG would hope to become. 

None of this is criticizing OG, again I'd love to have him on the Celtics, but he's not on Brown's level yet. 

Gleas, no, OG is not a spot up shooter, that tells me you’re not following his game. 
I already walked you through OG’s offensive stats many of which are better than Brown’s, your answer is Brown is a 20 ppg scorer (that’s just this season) while ignoring his significant usage difference. 

What was Kawhi’s scoring average after year 3? 

It was 12.8. He was around the 4th option as an offensive scorer on that team. Sound familiar? OG’s game is remarkably similar. No of course he’s not Kawhi, but he is very much in the mold of Kawhi, a lock  down defender who can shut down about anyone and he can easily score 20 plus when called upon to do so, just pull up some of his games and you’ll see that, and much like Kawhi he scores efficiently, more efficiently than Brown. 
 

Year 4 Kawhi averaged 16.5, year 5 21.2, and so on. If you don’t think OG can  average 20 you’re really not following his game at all. Their respective roles are different because of who they are playing with and the constructed roster and who the coach is. You are really touting Brown really based on what he did just this past season. Your view in comparing them is skewed and you keep ignoring OG’s better offensively stats - many - across the board.
Can he score that efficiently if he shoots more, from 13 shots (that is not a small number) to Brown’s 22 a game? We don’t know really one way or the other, but your dismissing his offense is to ignore what he’s shown. You started this discussion saying GM’s would laugh, no they wouldn’t, OG’s promise is already widely recognized, we don’t know if he will be a 20-plus scorer but frankly there’s no reason to believe he can’t 

OG is not some spot up corner 3 guy, that’s not his game. I agree he hasn’t shot at a high enough volume — behind Lowry, Fleet and Siakim - to know if he can make that “leap” to all star level offensive player, but it’s clearly inaccurate to dismiss his offensive game. He’s very good, and consistently, offensively, to go with his elite D, he’s a true 2-way high level player, and teams and GM’s see that. Will be interesting to see where Toronto and OG go from here. 

Ok so let's take this a couple steps further. Miles apart?

Fouls could enter an appearance here lol because even a simple look at the metrics show that's just not the case. If you look a little deeper here Gleas, Brown has been featured offensively, OG has not, that drives the point difference you're focused on. Here's just a few of the stats reflecting OG frankly has been better than Brown, offensively, in several respects. All of the below are 2019-20, from stats reference.

Per 100 possessions:

OG - Offensive rating (ORtg) 114, Brown 110. (DRtg OG 104 to Brown's 108). OG clearly better in both categories. 

OG - 3P% 39, Brown 38. 2p% OG 58, Brown 54.

ORB OG 1.8 to Brown's 1.5. 

But -- more on this below - FGA (attempts per game per 100) Brown 22.1 to OG's 13. Of course Brown has more points. 

Adjusted shooting:

OG EFg 58 to Brown's 55. OG's 3PAr 40 to Brown's 38. 

Advanced

OG's Vorp 1.7 to Brown's 1.4.

WS Iwin shares) OG's 5.7 to Brown's 4.9. But Brown gets OWS 2.3 to OG's 2.1.

Could keep going here but instead of just focusing on who had more points consider the why --

Offensive usage and shots;

USG% Brown's 24,7 to OG's 14.3. Yes, Brown scores more, because he takes way more shots on way more usage. 

Listen, I said I think Brown is better offensively. I think so, generally, because has been able to carve out a major scoring role on a good Boston team, and again he played at an almost all star level. But you are really being dismissive of OG's offensive game, and you're doing that based on how many points he scored without looking at the fact that he shoots better, on any measure, both from 2 and from 3, he scores more efficiently, he just shoots a lot less because Toronto -- which obviously also is a very good team with its own stars -- looks to get most of its offense from its guards -- lowry and Fleet score the most on that team -- followed by Siakim. OG is now the 4th leading scorer on that team. That's hardly chopped liver, and if he was emphasized the way Brown is in Boston, he would score a lot more, any GM looking at him would consider that, it's clear he can score at a high level and against the elite teams, and it's clear his D - his primary usage on the that team, is elite.

https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/a/anunoog01.html

https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/b/brownja02.html

2 hours ago, BGleas said:

The gap between OG and Brown offensively is infinitely greater than the gap between OG and Brown defensively. 

Brown is the second best defender on the Celtics after Smart, and the Celtics are one of the top defensive teams in the league. When Smart was coming off the bench Brown always started on the opponents best player. 

Honestly, HH this is silly Brown is an all-star level player, OG isn't close to that conversation. 

Brown is the better player by far. I love OG, every GM in the league would laugh and hangup if you tried to offer OG straight up for Brown. 

I would say you have a heavy dose of IU colored glasses on this one. 

Geez, pretty aggressive there Gleas. Brown is the better player, I said he’s really good and a border line all star - you then say he is an all star level player - since I don’t disagree what’s the point? And then you reply about GM’s laughing? Ok.  You’re over-valuing Brown’s D. He’s not on the level you’re backing. That’s my point. OG frankly is close, he is in the mold of a Kawhi defensively, if he keeps improving and stays healthy he could be one of the best wing defenders in the League.  He is an outstanding lock down defender, that’s not rose colored glasses it’s just fact. 

58 minutes ago, KoB2011 said:

He turned down more money to pay for the Clippers though. Harrell took a low deal to leave the Clippers, too. I wonder what is causing guys to not want to play with the Clippers?

 

Honestly where are you going with this? Lately it’s like you’re looking to poke to cause trouble? Harrell left to chase a ring, which is kind of lame, especially going to the next door Lakers. Smacks of a Durant-like move. Obviously there are locker room issues. Obviously they fell apart. If this is a back/door jab at PG it’s lame. 

14 minutes ago, BGleas said:

Wow, you're way, way off on this. Jaylen Brown came into the league known for his defense and averages 20ppg. He's the definition of a 2-way player. 

I love OG, but Brown's offense is infinitely more developed than any edge OG would have defensively over Brown. 

Brown literally came into the league as a guy ready to play D but that had to improve offensively and he's done exactly that. Many people were calling for him to be an all-star last year. 

Honestly, i love OG but comparing him to Brown at this point is laughable. 

Hmm, no I don’t think it’s laughable Gleas, and in this case I think you are wearing a bit of C’s glasses. As I said, Brown is better offensively. But if you really think Brown is on OG’s level defensively you’re drinking too much kool aid, he’s clearly not. Show me the game where Brown shut down LBJ. You can’t he hasn’t. Brown is a borderline all star, he’s really good, but he’s not a Tatum good and he’s not on OG’s level defensively 

3 hours ago, BGleas said:

Will be interesting to see how that plays out. I agree with most that Turner/Sabonis aren't a great fit together, but I also said once Indiana got their coach that if I was them I would have sat tight and let it play out for a year. 

Yes good point — the P’s already have good players, the mediocre coaching is gone and the new Nate will bring a new look. Turner is a good player and a very good shot blocker, he’s the best player to move but not for the sake of just moving him, and remains to be seen how he’ll play in the new look P’s

1 hour ago, IU Scott said:

Saw Rondo signed with the Hawks

Right because the Lakers picked up a new point and there’s real bad blood between him and Rondo 

2 hours ago, BGleas said:

Brown is significantly better than OG, it's not even remotely close. Brown also completely outplayed Siakim in their playoff series. 

On the Heat, I'm saying I need to see them play like that outside of the bubble. I believe they were the 5 seed in the East, and then they got hot in the bubble. We've seen what Tatum, Brown, etc. can do during a normal season. 

Whoa there Brown is better offensively OG is twice the player Brown is defensively. I think your view of Brown is skewed here. Tatum for sure, but Brown is good but he’s not fantastic. Personally I always prefer 2-way players and OG still has huge upside. Not buying the not even close assessment. I’d take Brown today - probably - but not if I needed a wing who could play really strong both ways. Hell OG has had games where he shut down LBJ, discounting that over offense is ok but not to say it’s not even close 

1 minute ago, BGleas said:

So what do you guys think, do the Pacers stand pat or look to move Turner somewhere else?

I think they’re in the market but need the right fit. Pritchard is doing a good job all around, the players he’s been bringing in have been good fits. I don’t think they’ll just move Turner but they’re still looking imo 

All things considered I think Hayward made a mistake. Getting paid is great, but you’re not going to win well in Charlotte and its organization, with MJ, is questionable (remember Lance). Money isn’t everything, but unfortunately it generally is the decider 

3 hours ago, KoB2011 said:

I don't think it's equally likely that he just needs to be healthy to become a good NBA shooter and scorer. There are tons of guys who don't have issues that can't make that translation from being a great high school shooter and scorer to the NBA, let alone a guy with two years of injuries. 

I think everyone on this board wants to see Romeo succeed, but at this point I think the most reasonable approach is to say he needs to prove he is good at shooting rather than give him the benefit of the doubt he can do it when he is healthy. 

I would agree with you IF he had been healthy and struggled or even had a couple minor injuries - but that’s just not the case. He had real injuries that kept him off the floor for much of the season and repeated injuries - he never even had the chance to get into a groove. You just can’t say you know how he’ll do healthy. If you step back and look at objectively - not as an IU fan or a person arguing on a message board, I think you’ll agree with that -
 

and frankly most guys who make the NBA after being not just good in HS but one of the all - time greats in their state, generally do well in the League. There are also examples of guys who were incredible college players who are never elite but solid NBA players — to me Cheaney is a great example — and guys who were incredible but robbed of their pro careers by injury - see Jonathan Bender who broke MJ’s McD’s game scoring record —
but you don’t generally see guys who just suddenly can’t shoot if not injured - Romeo can shoot, but his injuries have continued almost non-stop since IU. That’s the point 

30 minutes ago, BGleas said:

No, I haven't seen him healthy, but we're going on two years here. So with that much data I have to assume that playing through years of hand/wrist injuries has messed up his shot. He's not just off a little, he's been a bad shooter. 

I understand -- it's possible his shot is messed up from his injuries, but it's at least equally possible we just haven't seen him shoot (at IU, and with Boston) when he's healthy. The kid was smooth in high school -- his scouted recruiting profile (for example espn's) coming in was that he was a threat at all 3 levels. He could certainly shoot, but those injuries clearly messed up his ability to shoot. so the question to me is if/when he gets his hand/wrist back and legs back, without further injury time off, how will he shoot. I'd bet money he will shoot well, if/when healthy.

1 hour ago, IU Scott said:

I saw him in person at the state finals his sophomore year and his shot looked smooth.  I remember that same year he went to the semi state game when they at Richmond.  He said he couldn't believe how smooth and effortlessly he made scoring looked.

Yeah he wasn’t a bad shooter he just had a bad hand injury at IU 

35 minutes ago, IU Scott said:

Grant Hill first 4 or 5 years in the league he was a great player

He was literally one of the best players ever before his injuries. Hill probably would’ve been on the level of the all time greats but for those awful derailing injuries, but he still managed to be a really good player 

2 hours ago, BGleas said:

I think so too. Edwards didn't really have a good year and Langford is an interesting case, he played better than expected defensively but provides almost nothing offensively. 

It's amazing to me that a guard can score so many points in Indiana high school basketball and be such a bad shooter. Its crazy to think that offense might be what limits his NBA career. 

Think you just haven’t seen him healthy Gleas, don’t think it’s right to judge him as such a bad shooter when he spent most of the year injured including his hand again. Let’s see what he does this season. Realistically there’s really no way he is one of Indiana’s all time great scorers as such a bad shooter. 

26 minutes ago, snowling said:

Just love the way T Petty interacts with the audience in Breakdown (posted above).  He and Heartbreakers always put on a great show. had a real rapport with the band members, as well.  Arguably, the last time I saw them was the best.  Great, tight band, that got better, the longer they played together.

Go Hoosiers!

Couple true stories - he was rejected by the studios when trying to break into the business, had to hand walk his cassettes around. Then, was about to file bankruptcy when he had his first breakthrough hit. Glad he kept at it, one of the greats 

43 minutes ago, Steubenhoosier said:

American Girl and You Wreck Me are two of my favorites and always worth cranking it up 

Love American Girl

Achilles tear to Klay just sucks. I’m no Warriors fan but that just sucks. Hate to see that happen to any player let alone a really good player. 

Well, here's an interesting factoid --

Tom Crean is now one of just 2 coaches -- the other being Teflon Cal -- in the Modern Draft Era (that's since 1996) to produce a top 5 draft pick at 3 different schools. 

Crean wasn't the right coach long-term for IU, at least to most, because he couldn't maintain class balance, his recruiting went South towards the end of his tenure at IU, and he couldn't build consistently good defensive teams -- though he often had a top-ranked offense. But there really isn't any disputing that he identified and developed top-flight NBA players. 

@ReacherI'm not sure how to ask this without your or others deciding I, as a mod, am taking a political side. I'm not. However, I am going to ask that you immediately back off these CLEARLY politically driven posts / articles. Advocating not wearing masks is just flat out ridiculous and frankly dangerous. The whole ignore-Covid-don't-wear-masks has been a highly political BS tool and it clearly, indisputably and stupidly, caused Covid cases to spread including at political rallies where mask--wearing was discouraged. Covid has killed over 1/4 million Americans. Enough of the BS anti-mask crap.

No, I'm not trying to get into politics. No, I am not OK'ing anyone to do so regardless whether or not they agree or disagree with this take, but yes, I am asking that you immediately knock off the anti-mask stuff. It is not appropriate for this Board, period, and it is re-spurring the political BS that has no place here. We can just lock this thread, if/as needed.

1 hour ago, rico said:

That Pritchard is a baller.  Good get for the C's.

😁

3 hours ago, BGleas said:

Sounds like Klay Thompson injured his right leg in a workout today. Really complicates things for the Warriors. 

 

Well that sucks 

17 minutes ago, IU Scott said:

I would trade Turner for Hayward in a heartbeat

Hayward is the better player, but Turner is more durable, Hayward carries some serious past injury issues with him. That's a roll of the dice -- I'd do it with the roster as constructed, though (just considering those two, I'm sure Boston would want more)