High School Hoops

[Seeking6]

2 minutes ago, 5fouls said:

The class system can be made better by not requiring each class to have the same number of schools.  The difference in enrollment between the top of 4A (Carmel with 5327) and the bottom of 4A (S.B. Riley at 1030) is almost 4,300.  meanwhile, the top of 3A and the bottom of 1A are separated by less than 1,000. 

Limit 4A to the top 64 schools by enrollment.  That would be 16 sectionals of 4 teams.

Have 3A be the next 96 schools.  16 sectionals of 6 teams.

And split 2A and 1A equally from there.

I am not in favor of creating a 5th or 6th class.  The meaningful enrollment gap is at the top.  That can be mitigated by the proposal I listed above.  

 

Bingo. Well said. The discrepancy needs to be narrowed.

[5fouls]

The reality is that the game has changed.  What worked in 1954 or 1990 doesn't work today. 

That Milan team in '54 doesn't make it out of the regional with today's athletes.

Damon doesn't put 40,000 plus in the dome in 2023.  Even in 1990, BNL doesn't make it to Indy unless they come out of the South.  The path in those other 3 regions would have likely tripped BNL up before they even got to Indy.   

[Steubenhoosier]

8 minutes ago, btownqb said:

Ok. But there are 5 champions in college, and just 4 in Indiana. 

Which makes sense, because the different divisions in college play under different rules. Division 1 is the only one offering full scholarships. Division 3 an lower offer none. 

All high schools are playing under the same guidelines. Larger schools have more resources is the only difference.

[btownqb]

1 minute ago, 5fouls said:

The reality is that the game has changed.  What worked in 1954 or 1990 doesn't work today. 

That Milan team in '54 doesn't make it out of the regional with today's athletes.

Damon doesn't put 40,000 plus in the dome in 2023.  Even in 1990, BNL doesn't make it to Indy unless they come out of the South.  The path in those other 3 regions would have likely tripped BNL up before they even got to Indy.   

Off topic.. Romeo was 100-10 in HS. 4 sectional championships, 2 regionals, 1 state. 

Shewwww

[IU Scott]

2 hours ago, rico said:

I just preferred the one class system.

Me too, but when Knightstown won 3 straight sectionals and one regional it was a great ride. All the gyms were packed for all the games 

[Steubenhoosier]

2 minutes ago, 5fouls said:

The reality is that the game has changed.  What worked in 1954 or 1990 doesn't work today. 

That Milan team in '54 doesn't make it out of the regional with today's athletes.

Damon doesn't put 40,000 plus in the dome in 2023.  Even in 1990, BNL doesn't make it to Indy unless they come out of the South.  The path in those other 3 regions would have likely tripped BNL up before they even got to Indy.   

Those are your opinions. Blackhawk Christian competed head to head with the big boys over the last few years and held their own every game.

[btownqb]

4 minutes ago, Steubenhoosier said:

Which makes sense, because the different divisions in college play under different rules. Division 1 is the only one offering full scholarships. Division 3 an lower offer none. 

All high schools are playing under the same guidelines. Larger schools have more resources is the only difference.

Not even close to the same.playing field.. not in in the same realm....

Medora to Carmel is "further" from each other than Hanover to IU is. 100% 

D3 basketball teams are closer to D1 basketball teams than the top of 4A compared to 1A. So if you want 1 state champ, you should want one college champion, as well. 

Edited December 31, 2022 by btownqb

[btownqb]

3 minutes ago, IU Scott said:

Me too, but when Knightstown won 3 straight sectionals and one regional it was a great ride. All the gyms were packed for all the games 

We won 5 straight at one point and every time I turned the radio on to listen to a game... our radio guy complained CONSTANTLY that we were getting screwed. Incredibly embarrassing listening to him, as an alumnus. 

[IU Scott]

18 minutes ago, IUFLA said:

I think there's a lot validity to saying kids (and adults) have a lot more options on a Friday night... And I'm not sure how hard schools sell their sports any more...

When my family moved from Terre Haute to Martinsville in 1963, I was in 2nd grade. At the beginning of the school year the teacher would ask who wanted season basketball tickets and how many. If you didn't have the money, they'd get them to you some way... 

I talked my Dad into going and it was awesome...

Old Glenn M Curtis Memorial Gym was a shrine to me... Many enjoyable memories there... 

My mom and dad talked about when they were in school that sectionals we're so big that they started on Tuesday afternoons and they let them out of school

[Steubenhoosier]

3 minutes ago, btownqb said:

Not even close to the same.playing field.. not in in the same realm....

Medora to Carmel is "further" from each other than Hanover to IU is. 100% 

D3 basketball teams are closer to D1 basketball teams than the top of 4A compared to 1A. So if you want 1 state champ, you should want one college champion, as well. 

Yes, Carmel has resources that Medora doesn't. They still fall under the same IHSAA guidelines. Same rules. There is no governing body that says that at Carmel, kids get this, and at Medora they don't . 

[5fouls]

1 minute ago, IU Scott said:

Me too, but when Knightstown won 3 straight sectionals and one regional it was a great ride. All the gyms were packed for all the games 

Were the gyms packed when Knightstown had losing seasons?

My point is that the crowds Knightstown has had nothing to do with the class system, it was because the team was good.

I was at the game in the video below from 3 years ago.  #1 vs. #1, standing room only.  That same matchup last season, the gym was about 30% full.  Why?  Because neither team was as good.  The game 3 years agio had Leal, Kaufmann-Renn, Jacobi, etc.  the game last year didn't. 

Same schools, 2 years apart.  One game was must see, the other wasn't.  Class basketball had nothing to do with it.

 

[btownqb]

8 minutes ago, Steubenhoosier said:

Yes, Carmel has resources that Medora doesn't. They still fall under the same IHSAA guidelines. Same rules. There is no governing body that says that at Carmel, kids get this, and at Medora they don't . 

They are all college basketball players. They fall under the same guidelines that they are student-athletes and not professional. Sure, some get advantages.... just like the kids at Carmel. Theres no difference. 

[btownqb]

In 1990 there were over 900K that attended the Indiana basketball tourney..  in 1997--- 190K less. 7 years... 200K fans. Class basketball isn't the issue. 

[5fouls]

14 minutes ago, Steubenhoosier said:

Those are your opinions. Blackhawk Christian competed head to head with the big boys over the last few years and held their own every game.

Playing a one-off game vs., winning 5-6 games in a row against top competition are two totally different things.  Likewise, playing big Ft. Wayne schools is not the same as playing big Indy schools.  It just isn't.

Silver Creek played Blackhawk and Lawrence Central two weeks apart in the 19-20 season.  I was at both games.  Silver Creek had two D1 players and another player who had D1 offers on that roster.  They had zero chance in the L. North game from the opening tip.  Lawrence North came to play and the athleticism they had was something Silver Creek could not offset no matter what they did. 

Maybe they could have competed better if L. North came out flat.  But, they didn't, and as a result, SC had no chance, none at all.  And, this is the team that won 3A the year before, likely would have won it this particular season had Covid not intervened, and won it the year after Covid.   So, a probable 3-time state champion in 3A with 3 D1 level players gets drilled by 30 against a very talented Indy school.  How in the hell would a good 1A or 2A school compete with that?  

Oh, and that Lawrence North team didn't even win their sectional that season.  

[Purdue7]

Lafayette Sectional Tuesday was must see!  I can’t even tell you if anyone plays here anymore 

I can tell you that Rossville took EC to the limit in 1971 

Lafayette Central Catholic ended Jeff’s consecutive Sectional streak at 29 in 1973….not 100% sure if they won 3 or 4 State Titles or what years in class and I was there 

 

[Steubenhoosier]

4 minutes ago, 5fouls said:

Playing a one-off game vs., winning 5-6 games in a row against top competition are two totally different things.  Likewise, playing big Ft. Wayne schools is not the same as playing big Indy schools.  It just isn't.

Silver Creek played Blackhawk and Lawrence Central two weeks apart in the 19-20 season.  I was at both games.  Silver Creek had two D1 players and another player who had D1 offers on that roster.  They had zero chance in the L. North game from the opening tip.  Lawrence North came to play and the athleticism they had was something Silver Creek could not offset no matter what they did. 

Maybe they could have competed better if L. North came out flat.  But, they didn't, and as a result, SC had no chance, none at all.  And, this is the team that won 3A the year before, likely would have won it this particular season had Covid not intervened, and won it the year after Covid.   So, a probable 3-time state champion in 3A with 3 D1 level players gets drilled by 30 against a very talented Indy school.  How in the hell would a good 1A or 2A school compete with that?  

Oh, and that Lawrence North team didn't even win their sectional that season.  

If a school has the resources and wants to play that level of competition, they shouldn’t be forced to play lesser teams because of the attendance mandates

[btownqb]

5 minutes ago, Steubenhoosier said:

If a school has the resources and wants to play that level of competition, they shouldn’t be forced to play lesser teams because of the attendance mandates

I'm confused... this is the case now. 

[btownqb]

11 minutes ago, 5fouls said:

Playing a one-off game vs., winning 5-6 games in a row against top competition are two totally different things.  Likewise, playing big Ft. Wayne schools is not the same as playing big Indy schools.  It just isn't.

Silver Creek played Blackhawk and Lawrence Central two weeks apart in the 19-20 season.  I was at both games.  Silver Creek had two D1 players and another player who had D1 offers on that roster.  They had zero chance in the L. North game from the opening tip.  Lawrence North came to play and the athleticism they had was something Silver Creek could not offset no matter what they did. 

Maybe they could have competed better if L. North came out flat.  But, they didn't, and as a result, SC had no chance, none at all.  And, this is the team that won 3A the year before, likely would have won it this particular season had Covid not intervened, and won it the year after Covid.   So, a probable 3-time state champion in 3A with 3 D1 level players gets drilled by 30 against a very talented Indy school.  How in the hell would a good 1A or 2A school compete with that?  

Oh, and that Lawrence North team didn't even win their sectional that season.  

Picking on Charlestown that year? 

I'm all in favor of making life hell on them. 🤣 (joking, I know that was the Clark Co tourney).. 

[btownqb]

11 minutes ago, 5fouls said:

Playing a one-off game vs., winning 5-6 games in a row against top competition are two totally different things.  Likewise, playing big Ft. Wayne schools is not the same as playing big Indy schools.  It just isn't.

Silver Creek played Blackhawk and Lawrence Central two weeks apart in the 19-20 season.  I was at both games.  Silver Creek had two D1 players and another player who had D1 offers on that roster.  They had zero chance in the L. North game from the opening tip.  Lawrence North came to play and the athleticism they had was something Silver Creek could not offset no matter what they did. 

Maybe they could have competed better if L. North came out flat.  But, they didn't, and as a result, SC had no chance, none at all.  And, this is the team that won 3A the year before, likely would have won it this particular season had Covid not intervened, and won it the year after Covid.   So, a probable 3-time state champion in 3A with 3 D1 level players gets drilled by 30 against a very talented Indy school.  How in the hell would a good 1A or 2A school compete with that?  

Oh, and that Lawrence North team didn't even win their sectional that season.  

Picking on Charlestown that year? 

I'm all in favor of making life hell on them. 🤣 (joking, I know that was the Clark Co tourney).. 

[btownqb]

Brownstown actually had their season tickets sold out by mid October, now that I think about it. Doesn't really matter for our discussion, but pretty cool nonetheless. 

[5fouls]

14 minutes ago, Purdue7 said:

Lafayette Sectional Tuesday was must see!  I can’t even tell you if anyone plays here anymore 

I can tell you that Rossville took EC to the limit in 1971 

Lafayette Central Catholic ended Jeff’s consecutive Sectional streak at 29 in 1973….not 100% sure if they won 3 or 4 State Titles or what years in class and I was there 

 

The fact that Lafayette Jeff won 29 straight sectionals is an indictment against one-class basketball.   It's a clear indicator that the bigger 'city' schools have a built-in advantage that is extremely difficult for the smaller county/country schools to overcome.  

[5fouls]

5 minutes ago, btownqb said:

Brownstown actually had their season tickets sold out by mid October, now that I think about it. Doesn't really matter for our discussion, but pretty cool nonetheless. 

I think it does mater.  It's a scenario you don't get at Ben Davis, Warren Central, Lawrence North, etc.  High school basketball is still thriving in the small towns across the state.  And, interest in those small towns remains high because those communities have some hope of a Championship.  That hope goes away in a single class environment.     

[btownqb]

1 minute ago, 5fouls said:

I think it does mater.  It's a scenario you don't get at Ben Davis, Warren Central, Lawrence North, etc.  High school basketball is still thriving in the small towns across the state.  And, interest in those small towns remains high because those communities have some hope of a Championship.  That hope goes away in a single class environment.     

I've spoke before about the absurd # of ppl Washington used to bring to Seymour for the semi state. I grew up on Hwy 50... dear god it was a small army of Hatchets headed to Seymour on those days. 

They sold out Seymour for a one game semi state vs Roncalli. I had to sneak in and sit in the rafters. 

[btownqb]

1 minute ago, 5fouls said:

I think it does mater.  It's a scenario you don't get at Ben Davis, Warren Central, Lawrence North, etc.  High school basketball is still thriving in the small towns across the state.  And, interest in those small towns remains high because those communities have some hope of a Championship.  That hope goes away in a single class environment.     

I've spoke before about the absurd # of ppl Washington used to bring to Seymour for the semi state. I grew up on Hwy 50... dear god it was a small army of Hatchets headed to Seymour on those days. 

They sold out Seymour for a one game semi state vs Roncalli. I had to sneak in and sit in the rafters. 

[5fouls]

11 minutes ago, btownqb said:

Picking on Charlestown that year? 

I'm all in favor of making life hell on them. 🤣 (joking, I know that was the Clark Co tourney).. 

It's been a one-sided rivalry in basketball for a few years now.  Would like to see their program get back to where it was 20-30 years ago to liven things up again.