btownqb Posted January 3, 2023 Report Share Posted January 3, 2023 Just now, IUFLA said: As I said, I do understand the fairness aspect...But most things are driven by money...More fans attending, more money... And you're correct...The IHSAA should be looking out for the kids first... I don't think they are making less money with the streaming subscriptions. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IUFLA Posted January 3, 2023 Report Share Posted January 3, 2023 Just now, btownqb said: I don't think they are making less money with the streaming subscriptions. I have no idea, but more viewership would mean more money, no? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
btownqb Posted January 3, 2023 Report Share Posted January 3, 2023 Just now, IUFLA said: I have no idea, but more viewership would mean more money, no? Yes? I Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Purdue7 Posted January 3, 2023 Report Share Posted January 3, 2023 I never met a player or fan who hated the old system 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
btownqb Posted January 3, 2023 Report Share Posted January 3, 2023 1 minute ago, Purdue7 said: I never met a player or fan who hated the old system There is no player now that hates this system lol 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Purdue7 Posted January 3, 2023 Report Share Posted January 3, 2023 16 minutes ago, btownqb said: There is no player now that hates this system lol True…..but I’ll bet half of them don’t know who Bobby Plump is said it my entire life it’s about the kids Maybe we shouldn’t worry what adults say or try to Monetize a kids game 🥱 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
5fouls Posted January 3, 2023 Report Share Posted January 3, 2023 4 hours ago, Purdue7 said: True…..but I’ll bet half of them don’t know who Bobby Plump is said it my entire life it’s about the kids Maybe we shouldn’t worry what adults say or try to Monetize a kids game 🥱 Bobby Plump never gets the opportunity in 2023 that he got in 1954. If your sole argument is 'Plump', then it's a moot argument, because there is zero chance that happens in a single class in 2023. You can argue sectional and regional, and possibly even semi-state coming out of the South. But, a 'Milan' has no chance against an Indy area mega school. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
btownqb Posted January 3, 2023 Report Share Posted January 3, 2023 9 minutes ago, 5fouls said: Bobby Plump never gets the opportunity in 2023 that he got in 1954. If your sole argument is 'Plump', then it's a moot argument, because there is zero chance that happens in a single class in 2023. You can argue sectional and regional, and possibly even semi-state coming out of the South. But, a 'Milan' has no chance against an Indy area mega school. Milan would be a 50pt dog vs Ben Davis currently. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IU Scott Posted January 3, 2023 Report Share Posted January 3, 2023 11 minutes ago, 5fouls said: Bobby Plump never gets the opportunity in 2023 that he got in 1954. If your sole argument is 'Plump', then it's a moot argument, because there is zero chance that happens in a single class in 2023. You can argue sectional and regional, and possibly even semi-state coming out of the South. But, a 'Milan' has no chance against an Indy area mega school. Well you put the guys from back in the day saying they couldn't compete based on the decade they played. Give guys back in the day the same advantages that today's players have then the would be able to compete just fine Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
btownqb Posted January 3, 2023 Report Share Posted January 3, 2023 42 minutes ago, IU Scott said: Well you put the guys from back in the day saying they couldn't compete based on the decade they played. Give guys back in the day the same advantages that today's players have then the would be able to compete just fine You missed his point.. But..that is part of the issue. Milan doesn't have the same advantages that Ben Davis has. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IU Scott Posted January 3, 2023 Report Share Posted January 3, 2023 1 hour ago, btownqb said: You missed his point.. But..that is part of the issue. Milan doesn't have the same advantages that Ben Davis has. I was just talking about how different the workouts are today, plus summer basketball and nutrition. If those guys back then had the technology today they wod be as good as players today. I actually think some of the players back then are better basketball players but not as athletic Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steubenhoosier Posted January 4, 2023 Report Share Posted January 4, 2023 (edited) In your life, or in your profession, you are told that there are levels of performance above you, and that you won’t have the opportunity to attain that level. Doesn’t matter whether you have the ability or resources to get to those levels. Just the message… you cannot achieve to those levels. Exactly the message promoted by class basketball. How in the hell is that teaching the right lessons to young people? Compete with your peers! Be the best of the rest! Be happy to win something, instead of striving for the best! Edited January 4, 2023 by Steubenhoosier 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
btownqb Posted January 4, 2023 Report Share Posted January 4, 2023 9 hours ago, Steubenhoosier said: In your life, or in your profession, you are told that there are levels of performance above you, and that you won’t have the opportunity to attain that level. Doesn’t matter whether you have the ability or resources to get to those levels. Just the message… you cannot achieve to those levels. Exactly the message promoted by class basketball. How in the hell is that teaching the right lessons to young people? Compete with your peers! Be the best of the rest! Be happy to win something, instead of striving for the best! What lesson is this? What aren't some kids able to achieve? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
5fouls Posted January 4, 2023 Report Share Posted January 4, 2023 9 hours ago, Steubenhoosier said: In your life, or in your profession, you are told that there are levels of performance above you, and that you won’t have the opportunity to attain that level. Doesn’t matter whether you have the ability or resources to get to those levels. Just the message… you cannot achieve to those levels. Exactly the message promoted by class basketball. How in the hell is that teaching the right lessons to young people? Compete with your peers! Be the best of the rest! Be happy to win something, instead of striving for the best! So....... Every little league baseball team in the world except the one that wins the LLWS is a failure. Only kids that score perfect on their SAT should be acknowledged academically I should not have been allowed to give a salutatorian speech at my high school graduation, because damnit, I wasn't Valedictorian (I'm biased, but my speech was better) Single class basketball champion in Indiana? Now, go bet the champs of the other 49 states, the District of Columbia, and Guam. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IUFLA Posted January 4, 2023 Report Share Posted January 4, 2023 2 hours ago, 5fouls said: So....... Every little league baseball team in the world except the one that wins the LLWS is a failure. Only kids that score perfect on their SAT should be acknowledged academically I should not have been allowed to give a salutatorian speech at my high school graduation, because damnit, I wasn't Valedictorian (I'm biased, but my speech was better) Single class basketball champion in Indiana? Now, go bet the champs of the other 49 states, the District of Columbia, and Guam. I don't think that's what @Steubenhoosieris saying at all...Actually the exact opposite... Re your first bullet...Why don't they divide the LLWS by population of the country the teams came from? Or metro areas? Would they be cheating the Dominican Republic out of a chance to play the US, or are they just being "fair"? There would be more champions and everybody would feel better about themselves! Re your second bullet...Sure, all academic acheivement should be honored, but if someone scores a perfect SAT you don't think that merits individual recognition? Look, this is all going to boil down to the age old argument of whether it's ok to let kids experience losing and failure and also how to cope with both winning AND losing, or give everybody a trinket to make them feel better about themselves... I made an earlier point that back when there was only one class, a small school taking out a large school at ANY stage of the tournament was big news...Didn't necessarily have to win the whole thing,...But it would be talked about in the smaller community for a generation... 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
btownqb Posted January 4, 2023 Report Share Posted January 4, 2023 13 minutes ago, IUFLA said: I don't think that's what @Steubenhoosieris saying at all...Actually the exact opposite... Re your first bullet...Why don't they divide the LLWS by population of the country the teams came from? Or metro areas? Would they be cheating the Dominican Republic out of a chance to play the US, or are they just being "fair"? There would be more champions and everybody would feel better about themselves! Re your second bullet...Sure, all academic acheivement should be honored, but if someone scores a perfect SAT you don't think that merits individual recognition? Look, this is all going to boil down to the age old argument of whether it's ok to let kids experience losing and failure and also how to cope with both winning AND losing, or give everybody a trinket to make them feel better about themselves... I made an earlier point that back when there was only one class, a small school taking out a large school at ANY stage of the tournament was big news...Didn't necessarily have to win the whole thing,...But it would be talked about in the smaller community for a generation... Ok but what aren't some kids able to achieve in class basketball? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IUFLA Posted January 4, 2023 Report Share Posted January 4, 2023 (edited) 3 minutes ago, btownqb said: Ok but what aren't some kids able to achieve in class basketball? Getting at least the chance to play the best teams/players in the state in a tournament setting... Not sure how it works...Can a 1A team schedule a 4A team during the regular season? Edited January 4, 2023 by IUFLA Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steubenhoosier Posted January 4, 2023 Report Share Posted January 4, 2023 2 hours ago, 5fouls said: So....... Every little league baseball team in the world except the one that wins the LLWS is a failure. Only kids that score perfect on their SAT should be acknowledged academically I should not have been allowed to give a salutatorian speech at my high school graduation, because damnit, I wasn't Valedictorian (I'm biased, but my speech was better) Single class basketball champion in Indiana? Now, go bet the champs of the other 49 states, the District of Columbia, and Guam. 7 minutes ago, btownqb said: Ok but what aren't some kids able to achieve in class basketball? As I said earlier, and as @IUFLAexplained better than I have, this is not about being a failure. It's about not being given the opportunity to prove your the best. It's about artificial ceilings being placed on kids because someone thinks they know better. It's the message that "you don't have a shot." It's the message of "being happy in your lane, but don't try to achieve outside of it." 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
btownqb Posted January 4, 2023 Report Share Posted January 4, 2023 1 minute ago, IUFLA said: Getting at least the chance to play the best teams/players in the state in a tournament setting... Not sure how it works...Can a 1A team schedule a 4A team during the regular season? Of course to the bold. We are a 2A team and I think we have 7 games vs. 4A opponents this season and 8 vs. 3A opponents. Your first sentence...I think that is easily sacrificed for a more fair tournament. And all these kids play against each other in aau/growing up anyway, a single class tournament wouldn't offer anything more than what a classed tournament can offer. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
btownqb Posted January 4, 2023 Report Share Posted January 4, 2023 2 minutes ago, Steubenhoosier said: As I said earlier, and as @IUFLAexplained better than I have, this is not about being a failure. It's about not being given the opportunity to prove your the best. It's about artificial ceilings being placed on kids because someone thinks they know better. It's the message that "you don't have a shot." It's the message of "being happy in your lane, but don't try to achieve outside of it." Man.. like, I have coached/played in this tournament. This never entered anyone's mind... or even close to it. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IUFLA Posted January 4, 2023 Report Share Posted January 4, 2023 1 minute ago, btownqb said: Of course to the bold. We are a 2A team and I think we have 7 games vs. 4A opponents this season and 8 vs. 3A opponents. Your first sentence...I think that is easily sacrificed for a more fair tournament. And all these kids play against each other in aau/growing up anyway, a single class tournament wouldn't offer anything more than what a classed tournament can offer. Like I said...I can see the fairness aspect...I just don't necessarily agree with it totally... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IU Scott Posted January 4, 2023 Report Share Posted January 4, 2023 32 minutes ago, btownqb said: Man.. like, I have coached/played in this tournament. This never entered anyone's mind... or even close to it. Because the class system is all you have ever known so you don't know what it was like in a single class system. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
5fouls Posted January 4, 2023 Report Share Posted January 4, 2023 38 minutes ago, IU Scott said: Because the class system is all you have ever known so you don't know what it was like in a single class system. I would speculate the 80% plus of the coaches in the state who played in a single class environment, but are coaching in a multi-class environment would vote for multi-class. They understand how the game has changed and there would be no hope for a Milan type scenario today. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
btownqb Posted January 4, 2023 Report Share Posted January 4, 2023 47 minutes ago, IU Scott said: Because the class system is all you have ever known so you don't know what it was like in a single class system. That isn't relevant though. My kids aren't missing out on anything or any opportunity because they're playing in the classed tourney. Hell we got beat by Deshaun Thomas in the state finals... we missed out on nothing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rico Posted January 4, 2023 Author Report Share Posted January 4, 2023 Do I like the class system? Absolutely not. But I concede it that it is here to stay and why it has come about. But I will say this much. The single class system was waaaaaay more entertaining to me than this class system is today. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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