rico Posted January 2, 2023 Author Report Share Posted January 2, 2023 7 hours ago, FKIM01 said: Didn't read nearly all of this raging debate, but you'll never convince me that class basketball killed attendance. We simply live in a different world where more choices and convenience killed attendance. Kind of like how streaming and on demand programming has killed cable, satellite and especially movie theaters. So from 1920 until 1990 the world didn't change much? All of the sudden class basketball comes along and bam it is a different world? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NotIThatLives Posted January 2, 2023 Report Share Posted January 2, 2023 45 minutes ago, rico said: So from 1920 until 1990 the world didn't change much? All of the sudden class basketball comes along and bam it is a different world? I guess the personal/handheld technology could be partly to blame as well. You watch the crowd on TV of live events and over a 1/4 aren't even watching the game. They are looking at their phone. People just aren't as interested. Politics has divided communities. Lots of things have divided people. But the options for quality entertainment in the safe and comfy co fi es of your own home have vastly expanded. Instead of playing board or card games with a group of people, many are hooked up to video games. It has rapidly changed over the last 30 years, imo, more so than the previous 30-50-70. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rico Posted January 2, 2023 Author Report Share Posted January 2, 2023 4 minutes ago, NotIThatLives said: I guess the personal/handheld technology could be partly to blame as well. You watch the crowd on TV of live events and over a 1/4 aren't even watching the game. They are looking at their phone. People just aren't as interested. Politics has divided communities. Lots of things have divided people. But the options for quality entertainment in the safe and comfy co fi es of your own home have vastly expanded. Instead of playing board or card games with a group of people, many are hooked up to video games. It has rapidly changed over the last 30 years, imo, more so than the previous 30-50-70. Yeah, the invention of the television wasn't a very big jump. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NotIThatLives Posted January 2, 2023 Report Share Posted January 2, 2023 7 minutes ago, rico said: Yeah, the invention of the television wasn't a very big jump. The programming has changed a little, no? 😆 Im not sure if you are being serious or playing devil's advocate. I'm guessing the later. Blockbuster was founded in 85 and didn't start expansion until mid 90s. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IUFLA Posted January 2, 2023 Report Share Posted January 2, 2023 While class basketball by itself might not be the culprit for declining attendance, look at the chart from the article I posted earlier... The most precipitous decline is in 1998... Hmmm... 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
5fouls Posted January 2, 2023 Report Share Posted January 2, 2023 3 hours ago, IUFLA said: While class basketball by itself might not be the culprit for declining attendance, look at the chart from the article I posted earlier... The most precipitous decline is in 1998... Hmmm... When the 'Y' axis has '00.000' as a value all the way from top to bottom, it's kind of hard to take the chart seriously. High school basketball peaked with Damon. Itt was a perfect storm of legendary player coinciding with the beginning of a significant generational shift in interests. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IUFLA Posted January 2, 2023 Report Share Posted January 2, 2023 12 minutes ago, 5fouls said: When the 'Y' axis has '00.000' as a value all the way from top to bottom, it's kind of hard to take the chart seriously. High school basketball peaked with Damon. Itt was a perfect storm of legendary player coinciding with the beginning of a significant generational shift in interests. It doesn't though...I accidently cut off the left side (did the initial on my phone)... Look, I understand the argument from a fairness standpoint, but to say that dividing the tournament into classes has nothing to do with declining attendance just isn't an arguable point... 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Purdue7 Posted January 2, 2023 Report Share Posted January 2, 2023 Sectionals were a must see… Not even sure where teams locally are playing instead of every local team under one Big Top it’s a mess Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
5fouls Posted January 2, 2023 Report Share Posted January 2, 2023 (edited) 8 minutes ago, Purdue7 said: Sectionals were a must see… Not even sure where teams locally are playing instead of every local team under one Big Top it’s a mess It's extremely easy to find out where 'local' teams are playing. See link below. http://www.johnharrell.net/boys.html What you're really saying is that you don't make it a priority. That is not the fault of the class system. Edited January 2, 2023 by 5fouls 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
btownqb Posted January 2, 2023 Report Share Posted January 2, 2023 19 minutes ago, 5fouls said: It's extremely easy to find out where 'local' teams are playing. See link below. http://www.johnharrell.net/boys.html What you're really saying is that you don't make it a priority. That is not the fault of the class system. Thank you!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
5fouls Posted January 2, 2023 Report Share Posted January 2, 2023 How many of you remember these handbooks? The local banks always handed them out to customers (My bank is not the one represented in picture). I would spend hours reviewing these each year when they came out. If you've never seen one, click the link and flip through the pages. https://www.genealogycenter.info/viewpage_inbasketball1975.php?realpage=15&display=_001 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Purdue7 Posted January 2, 2023 Report Share Posted January 2, 2023 1 hour ago, 5fouls said: It's extremely easy to find out where 'local' teams are playing. See link below. http://www.johnharrell.net/boys.html What you're really saying is that you don't make it a priority. That is not the fault of the class system. I don’t get to see 4 county rivals play on Tuesday night Watch the CC kids come in cheering Watch everyone booo JEFF 7,000 screaming fans was awesome Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
go_iu_bb Posted January 2, 2023 Report Share Posted January 2, 2023 1 hour ago, IUFLA said: It doesn't though...I accidently cut off the left side (did the initial on my phone)... Look, I understand the argument from a fairness standpoint, but to say that dividing the tournament into classes has nothing to do with declining attendance just isn't an arguable point... Attendance was already dropping. It appears that moving to multiple classes accelerated the decline but it is doubtful that it's the sole cause since it was already dropping. My guess as well why it fell was that people were willing to go when the games were close to home (<30 minutes) but not as willing to travel longer than that. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Purdue7 Posted January 2, 2023 Report Share Posted January 2, 2023 You notice the biggest drop was in sectional how many teams played more than 20-30 minutes drive from home? Guessing it wasn’t many Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IU Scott Posted January 2, 2023 Report Share Posted January 2, 2023 19 minutes ago, Purdue7 said: I don’t get to see 4 county rivals play on Tuesday night Watch the CC kids come in cheering Watch everyone booo JEFF 7,000 screaming fans was awesome New Castle was an 8 team sectional with 2 games on Tuesday and 2 on Wednesday. We always bought all session tickets and even went to games the day Knightstown didn't play. All schools did this because every team was within a 20-25 mile drive from New Castle. Today you might have to drive over an hour to the sectionals and most people won't make that drive if their teams aren't involved. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IUFLA Posted January 2, 2023 Report Share Posted January 2, 2023 50 minutes ago, go_iu_bb said: Attendance was already dropping. It appears that moving to multiple classes accelerated the decline but it is doubtful that it's the sole cause since it was already dropping. My guess as well why it fell was that people were willing to go when the games were close to home (<30 minutes) but not as willing to travel longer than that. No, and I never made that argument... I understand the world has changed and there are more than one reason high school basketball has declined attendance wise... But to get the full view, we'd have to have attendance figures dating back to at least the 50s, and also factor in TV viewership once the tournament was televised... I have more thoughts but time crunched right now Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
5fouls Posted January 2, 2023 Report Share Posted January 2, 2023 I would be interested in seeing tournament attendance figures from 1960 to 1990. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IU Scott Posted January 2, 2023 Report Share Posted January 2, 2023 9 minutes ago, 5fouls said: I would be interested in seeing tournament attendance figures from 1960 to 1990. I can just go by the games I went to during sectionals at New Castle. I can remember starting in the 70's and in that time frame the place was always packed. I know you have been to the fidhouse do you know the dimensions of the gym. New Castle got half the arena, from the mid court all the way around to the other side. The other 7 teams got the other half of the gym. Like I said all the teams had people in the gym even on days their team didn't play. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IUFLA Posted January 2, 2023 Report Share Posted January 2, 2023 (edited) 1 hour ago, 5fouls said: I would be interested in seeing tournament attendance figures from 1960 to 1990. I would too... I guess my point is that the all in one tournament created more storylines than the class tournament does. You mentioned Damon Bailey, and I would imagine his mention in "Season on the Brink" sparked a lot of interest, as well as his chasing of the scoring record. Attendance fluctuated based on matchup, super player, or super team... Oscar Robertson and the super Crispus Attucks teams, McGinnis/Downing/Pack of the 69 Washington team... Here's a snapshot on the most watched NCAA finals... Storylines on every one of those... The steepest drop in Indiana high school basketball was when they went to the 4 class tournament...That's not really a debate... As I said, there's no more David and Goliath... If you're not creating storylines, then the casual fan isn't going to watch two 400 enrollment schools pair off... Just an opinion... Edited January 2, 2023 by IUFLA 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
5fouls Posted January 2, 2023 Report Share Posted January 2, 2023 42 minutes ago, IU Scott said: I can just go by the games I went to during sectionals at New Castle. I can remember starting in the 70's and in that time frame the place was always packed. I know you have been to the fidhouse do you know the dimensions of the gym. New Castle got half the arena, from the mid court all the way around to the other side. The other 7 teams got the other half of the gym. Like I said all the teams had people in the gym even on days their team didn't play. When I was in high school, Silver Creek, Charlestown, Henryville and New Washington were Clark County schools that were shipped to Madison for sectional, combining with the 3 Jefferson County schools for a 7-team sectional, instead of to Jeffersonville (which was only a 4-team sectional). For New Washington, the distance between the 2 was about the same. But, for the other 3, it was a much farther trip to Madison. No one complained though, because they didn't have to face Jeffersonville and either New Albany or Floyd Central (the two rotated to Jeff, one going each year). The thing I remember is that, despite the distance the schools had to travel to Madison, fans would still attend the games, even on nights where their school was not playing. If your team got the bye and didn't have to play until Friday, you were still there on Tuesday and Wednesday. If you're team got eliminated earlier in the week, you still attended the semi-finals on Friday. That kind of commitment to high school ball just doesn't happen any longer. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IU Scott Posted January 2, 2023 Report Share Posted January 2, 2023 13 minutes ago, 5fouls said: When I was in high school, Silver Creek, Charlestown, Henryville and New Washington were Clark County schools that were shipped to Madison for sectional, combining with the 3 Jefferson County schools for a 7-team sectional, instead of to Jeffersonville (which was only a 4-team sectional). For New Washington, the distance between the 2 was about the same. But, for the other 3, it was a much farther trip to Madison. No one complained though, because they didn't have to face Jeffersonville and either New Albany or Floyd Central (the two rotated to Jeff, one going each year). The thing I remember is that, despite the distance the schools had to travel to Madison, fans would still attend the games, even on nights where their school was not playing. If your team got the bye and didn't have to play until Friday, you were still there on Tuesday and Wednesday. If you're team got eliminated earlier in the week, you still attended the semi-finals on Friday. That kind of commitment to high school ball just doesn't happen any longer. No, it has totally changed. The thing with our sectional we had 5 Henry county schools New Castle the big school with Knightstown, Tri, Shenandoah and Blue River. We swti.es had Easyetn Hancock which is 5 miles from Knightstown. Tri was 10 mes away and Shenandoah was like 15 miles away from us. So when we played each other in the sectional it was just not the two schools going against each other but it was the towns going against each other. With us being so close to each other thenkids knew each other and it just meant more. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FKIM01 Posted January 3, 2023 Report Share Posted January 3, 2023 4 hours ago, rico said: So from 1920 until 1990 the world didn't change much? All of the sudden class basketball comes along and bam it is a different world? No, that's not what I'm saying at all. That's a straw man argument. The world changed a lot from 1920 to 1990, but those changes didn't affect peoples' interest in live sporting events like more recent changes have. It's my opinion that overall interest in sports, as a percentage of the population, is down considerably from what it was 30 years ago. Most millennials don't care at all about sports, and certainly not like previous generations did. That has nothing to do with whether or not Indiana operates under class basketball. There's simply little to no interest given all the alternatives kids have for entertainment. If you really want to see a basketball game, a lot of them are streamed online for no charge. We can like it or not, but live sporting events have a lot of competition for eyeballs today and I remain convinced that only a small minority of hardcore fans remain passionate about class basketball. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
btownqb Posted January 3, 2023 Report Share Posted January 3, 2023 16 hours ago, IUFLA said: I would too... I guess my point is that the all in one tournament created more storylines than the class tournament does. You mentioned Damon Bailey, and I would imagine his mention in "Season on the Brink" sparked a lot of interest, as well as his chasing of the scoring record. Attendance fluctuated based on matchup, super player, or super team... Oscar Robertson and the super Crispus Attucks teams, McGinnis/Downing/Pack of the 69 Washington team... Here's a snapshot on the most watched NCAA finals... Storylines on every one of those... The steepest drop in Indiana high school basketball was when they went to the 4 class tournament...That's not really a debate... As I said, there's no more David and Goliath... If you're not creating storylines, then the casual fan isn't going to watch two 400 enrollment schools pair off... Just an opinion... You are pretty much right. I can't think of a way to really argue with you. But.... some of you have to realize... the IHSAA is NOT put in place for "the casual fan"... that is not their job to make the single class basketball lovers fall in love with the sport again. It's not in their job description. Their job is to make their sports/organization as fair and just as possible... That is fine that some can't accept the fact there are 4 state champs, but that is reality. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jefftheref Posted January 3, 2023 Report Share Posted January 3, 2023 20 hours ago, 5fouls said: How many of you remember these handbooks? The local banks always handed them out to customers (My bank is not the one represented in picture). I would spend hours reviewing these each year when they came out. If you've never seen one, click the link and flip through the pages. https://www.genealogycenter.info/viewpage_inbasketball1975.php?realpage=15&display=_001 That picture looks like my good friend and teammate, Bruce P. Captain of the 75 Pan-American team. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IUFLA Posted January 3, 2023 Report Share Posted January 3, 2023 25 minutes ago, btownqb said: You are pretty much right. I can't think of a way to really argue with you. But.... some of you have to realize... the IHSAA is NOT put in place for "the casual fan"... that is not their job to make the single class basketball lovers fall in love with the sport again. It's not in their job description. Their job is to make their sports/organization as fair and just as possible... That is fine that some can't accept the fact there are 4 state champs, but that is reality. As I said, I do understand the fairness aspect...But most things are driven by money...More fans attending, more money... And you're correct...The IHSAA should be looking out for the kids first... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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