Auburn Post Game

[KoB2011]

1 minute ago, IUFLA said:

What are our "standards"? What were they when Woody got here? 

Mine are the same as Woody’s, I love how he’s embraced what the goals are here.

If you are calling last year some type of vindication because things didn’t go totally off the rails after Penn State then your standards are lower than his and TJD. 

[IUFLA]

3 minutes ago, KoB2011 said:

Mine are the same as Woody’s, I love how he’s embraced what the goals are here.

If you are calling last year some type of vindication because things didn’t go totally off the rails after Penn State then your standards are lower than his and TJD. 

Standards and goals are different...

[tdhoosier]

After calming down a bit I will say this is just a game. One really bad game, but a game none the less. We can bounce back.

I think the thing that frustrates me the most is that I’m not sure what the future (beyond this season) will hold. Will we accept a program that will make it to the second weekend every 4 years? Is that success for us? 

I fear that we are going to keep getting sucked into a style that’s not conducive to winning at a high level in the modern game. 

- Woody was hired and talked about his Knicks teams that shot a lot of 3’s and he was going to bring that style to IU.

- Woody said that the last 2 years were a fluke and that personnel forced him to play inside out. (Paraphrasing)

- Knowing that shooting was our weakness last year, the transfers we recruited were Walker, Ware and Sparks. All forwards. Not only were they only forwards but combining Ware with Malik brings us back to the Trayce/Race buddy ball clogging the paint.

- This year, we have the same problems. We failed to get the personnel to play the way Woody claims he wants to play.

- Next year, we have a good chance of getting Derrick Queen. He’s a great player. If he wants to come here we gotta take him, right? But then again, we’ll be playing more buddy ball with Queen and Malik. You’ll have to feed the post because they are so good. 

I don’t know. It’s great that Woody is proving that he can develop bigs, but it’s a detriment to how we need play. And it’s proving to be a deterrent for the type of guards we need. Guards do not want to come here and have the PG’s every first, second and third look be into the post. 

It’s hard to not bring in guys like Queen, Ware, Malik, etc. if they want to come here, but are we going to get pulled into this never ending cycle? 

Edited December 10, 2023 by tdhoosier

[IU Scott]

15 minutes ago, KoB2011 said:

Mine are the same as Woody’s, I love how he’s embraced what the goals are here.

If you are calling last year some type of vindication because things didn’t go totally off the rails after Penn State then your standards are lower than his and TJD. 

So by your standards if championship or bust then RMK had 26 bad years out 29 years

[HoosierDPU95]

I told myself I wasn't going to  read the post game thread after this one. Figured it would be a waste of my time drudging through all the posts from the Woodson haters coming out of the woodwork. But it turns out it was actually productive. I found a few more folks to put on ignore. 

[IUskim]

This board isn’t fun anymore. 

[Euroclydon]

IU doesn't have the guards to compete against a strong press team. Even with X they are really too thin at guard. CMW should have realized that going in and come up with a plan to slow it down. Not sure a W was in the cards but no way they should be giving up 100+.  

 

 

[KoB2011]

50 minutes ago, IU Scott said:

So by your standards if championship or bust then RMK had 26 bad years out 29 years

I don’t recall saying last year was a bad year.

I will say if last year was a good year in the flow of things, then that isn’t good enough. 

[Jackson Kellogs]

Woodson doesn’t know how to call timeouts or have any knack for substitutions… dude just crosses his arms and does nothing. 

[EvilleHoosier]

1 hour ago, tdhoosier said:

After calming down a bit I will say this is just a game. One really bad game, but a game none the less. We can bounce back.

I think the thing that frustrates me the most is that I’m not sure what the future (beyond this season) will hold. Will we accept a program that will make it to the second weekend every 4 years? Is that success for us? 

I fear that we are going to keep getting sucked into a style that’s not conducive to winning at a high level in the modern game. 

- Woody was hired and talked about his Knicks teams that shot a lot of 3’s and he was going to bring that style to IU.

- Woody said that the last 2 years were a fluke and that personnel forced him to play inside out. (Paraphrasing)

- Knowing that shooting was our weakness last year, the transfers we recruited were Walker, Ware and Sparks. All forwards. Not only were they only forwards but combining Ware with Malik brings us back to the Trayce/Race buddy ball clogging the paint.

- This year, we have the same problems. We failed to get the personnel to play the way Woody claims he wants to play.

- Next year, we have a good chance of getting Derrick Queen. He’s a great player. If he wants to come here we gotta take him, right? But then again, we’ll be playing more buddy ball with Queen and Malik. You’ll have to feed the post because they are so good. 

I don’t know. It’s great that Woody is proving that he can develop bigs, but it’s a detriment to how we need play. And it’s proving to be a deterrent for they type of guards we need. Guards do not one to come here and have the PG’s every first, second and third look be into the post. 

It’s hard to not bring in guys like Queen, Ware, Malik, etc. if they want to come here, but are we going to get pulled into this never ending cycle? 

You take what you can get especially if they are top 20 guys like Queen. Guards should want to play with a guy like Queen.  He is skilled and a good passer.  He is going to find guys when he is double teamed, at least he did the few games I have watched.  He can hit cutters too.  Schifino had a good season under Woodson despite playing with a dominant post player.  Woodson missed on some guards in the off-season and without knowing all the details, it probably had more to do with guys looking at a X and Galloway as playing a lot of the minutes at the guard spots.  From some of the guys mentioned as recruiting targets for 2024, (Davis and Sonon, if he reclasses) it looks like, Woodson understands the need for backcourt depth.  We'll see how it all plays out though.

[Hoosier987]

Even Rabjohns is now stating the obvious about the mass substitutions. Wow. 

[IUCrazy2]

 

[TheWatShot]

2 hours ago, tdhoosier said:

 

I think the thing that frustrates me the most is that I’m not sure what the future (beyond this season) will hold. Will we accept a program that will make it to the second weekend every 4 years? Is that success for us? 

I know people don't like to keep blaming past mistakes, but Archie Miller should have been out the door after that NIT loss to Wichita State. That season with Romeo was just such an epic disaster. Probably my least favorite IU team of all time. Miller was in over his head after that (heck, even before then) and everybody knew it. Keeping him for 2 more seasons just suffocated this program and any excitement surrounding it. The apologists kept saying "you can't fire him after 2 years because who would want to come here?!!" Gee I don't know, maybe the IU alum who wanted the job when it was open last time and the guy we ended up hiring two years too late. 

 

I'm always kind of intrigued and wondering what could have been when I imagine Woodson starting in 2019, then having a team that actually got better and trended upward during the Covid year. Maybe he doesn't get stuck playing Archie's style for so long if we hadn't given Archie so much time to ruin everything. 

[MSHoosier]

3 hours ago, 94hoosier said:

The cylinder foul on MM was complete BS

MM establish legal guarding position. Offensive player than stepped into MM putting his leg between MM’s leg. MM never moved foward.  Offensive player then tired to clear and raised elbow up and out making contact. 

If some can post it. I can’t do it

Not only did he raise his elbow, he extended it outside of his space. At the very least it should have been a flagrant one.

[Zuckerkorn]

Missed the game live and viewed the dvr replay last evening.  Man, the first 10 minutes were impressive!  Then came the platooning subs and the drop off was profound - it was like amateur hour.  Obviosly no boost to be expected from backup guard play, but the front court subs (looking at you Sparks) were KeystoneCop bad.  The starters never really mattered after that.  Maybe this alleged sickness was a factor?  IDK.

- It's inexplicable how Woodson and company could think we were anything but lacking from the backcourt personnel perspective.  Truthfully, we probably fooled ourselves thinking XJ was going to be the savior - he was unspectacular last season before getting injured and was about the same this season thus far.  Hopefully he blossoms eventually.

- Subbing.  Our play goes down the tubes when the "shift change" comes in.  Our opponent always seems able to capitalize. Virtually EVERYONE sees it.

- This was a yardstick game and exposed that we are, once again, too flawed to really fight the big dogs.  We'll be OK in the B10 because there are no real elte level teams there.

- If you can't build a complete team/roster, what's the point of bringing in one-and-dones from HS or the portal? Ware has been magnificent, but with no backcourt talent, his lone season here will mean little.  If he and Mgbako go, we're right back to square one.

On an optimistic note, we did start the game impressively and we're 2-0 in the league (for the first time in a long time). IMO we can count on what the front court starters do.  Hopefully somebody steps up and we see improvement from the other guys.

 

P.S.  Jimmy Dykes blows.

Edited December 10, 2023 by Zuckerkorn

[5fouls]

9 hours ago, Jackson Kellogs said:

Woodson doesn’t know how to call timeouts or have any knack for substitutions… dude just crosses his arms and does nothing. 

He's thinking to himself "What would @Jackson Kellogsdo?"

[rico]

1 minute ago, 5fouls said:

He's thinking to himself "What would @Jackson Kellogsdo?"

Naw.  Now Clark Kellogg maybe?

[IUFLA]

2 minutes ago, rico said:

Naw.  Now Clark Kellogg maybe?

Or Clark Griswold 

[tdhoosier]

9 hours ago, EvilleHoosier said:

You take what you can get especially if they are top 20 guys like Queen. Guards should want to play with a guy like Queen.  He is skilled and a good passer.  He is going to find guys when he is double teamed, at least he did the few games I have watched.  He can hit cutters too.  Schifino had a good season under Woodson despite playing with a dominant post player.  Woodson missed on some guards in the off-season and without knowing all the details, it probably had more to do with guys looking at a X and Galloway as playing a lot of the minutes at the guard spots.  From some of the guys mentioned as recruiting targets for 2024, (Davis and Sonon, if he reclasses) it looks like, Woodson understands the need for backcourt depth.  We'll see how it all plays out though.

I think PG’s will be okay; I’m more concerned about the scoring guards/wings. 

I’ve been watching Tennessee a lot lately. Dalton Knecht is a player i sure would’ve liked for Woody to nail down. However, it pains me to say this, but I think he made the right choice going to TN. We would not have utilized him in the same way. I honestly can’t imagine Woody giving Knecht that much freedom, I can’t imagine him having lanes to drive to the basket, and i can’t imagine Knecht getting the first look in our offense. He get’s all of this in Barnes’ offense. Heck, I wouldn’t put it past Woody to yank him after a defensive lapse or two. (Which he does have at times)

Maybe I’m over-reacting because we haven’t had a wing with that type of play making/scoring ability. But not having that type of guy yet, is ALSO going to make it that much harder for the staff to sell a recruit on us. Having a tape of the style you want to play is one thing. Having a ‘vision’ that we haven’t been able to pull off for 3 years is another. 

I want Woody to succeed so bad. I want to give him more time to do so. These comments weren’t made because of our loss yesterday. It’s been on my mind for quite some time. 

[IUCrazy2]

14 minutes ago, tdhoosier said:

I think PG’s will be okay; I’m more concerned about the scoring guards/wings. 

I’ve been watching Tennessee a lot lately. Dalton Knecht is a player i sure would’ve liked for Woody to nail down. However, it pains me to say this, but I think he made the right choice going to TN. We would not have utilized him in the same way. I honestly can’t imagine Woody giving Knecht that much freedom, I can’t imagine him having lanes to drive to the basket, and i can’t imagine Knecht getting the first look in our offense. He get’s all of this in Barnes’ offense. Heck, I wouldn’t put it past Woody to yank him after a defensive lapse or two. (Which he does have at times)

Maybe I’m over-reacting because we haven’t had a wing with that type of play making/scoring ability. But not having that type of guy yet, is ALSO going to make it that much harder for the staff to sell a recruit on us. Having a tape of the style you want to play is one thing. Having a ‘vision’ that we haven’t been able to pull off for 3 years is another. 

I want Woody to succeed so bad. I want to give him more time to do so. These comments weren’t made because of our loss yesterday. It’s been on my mind for quite some time. 

Not filling that last scholarship with a guard was basically criminal malfeasance.

Our players are dictating how we play, which on its face is a good thing, the problem is that we haven't recruited the whole team like a top power has.  Guards should be about the easiest positions to fill.  We have an elite front court and a mid-major level back court right now (if that, I bet you could pull some MAC backcourts and put them with Ware and Reneau right now and have a top 15 team.)

IMO Galloway and Gunn are 3's, Mgbako is a 4 and we don't have any 2's. Johnson wasn't playing all that well before he got hurt but having him as the starting PG would put Cupps in a more comfortable spot.  Asking him to run the point right now against the top tier teams is a hard ask.

[EvilleHoosier]

4 minutes ago, tdhoosier said:

I think PG’s will be okay; I’m more concerned about the scoring guards/wings. 

I’ve been watching Tennessee a lot lately. Dalton Knecht is a player i sure would’ve liked for Woody to nail down. However, it pains me to say this, but I think he made the right choice going to TN. We would not have utilized him in the same way. I honestly can’t imagine Woody giving Knecht that much freedom, I can’t imagine him having lanes to drive to the basket, and i can’t imagine Knecht getting the first look in our offense. He get’s all of this in Barnes’ offense. Heck, I wouldn’t put it past Woody to yank him after a defensive lapse or two. (Which he does have at times)

Maybe I’m over-reacting because we haven’t had a wing with that type of play making/scoring ability. But not having that type of guy yet, is ALSO going to make it that much harder for the staff to sell a recruit on us. Having a tape of the style you want to play is one thing. Having a ‘vision’ that we haven’t been able to pull off for 3 years is another. 

I want Woody to succeed so bad. I want to give him more time to do so. These comments weren’t made because of our loss yesterday. It’s been on my mind for quite some time. 

I would have loved to get Knecht too, but watching the Tennessee Illinois game yesterday, one of the announces mentioned he picked Tennessee because he wanted to go somewhere that would make him better on defense.  Barnes has had a top 5 defense the last 4 years in Kenpom.  They also mentioned he was a huge Kevin Durant fan, so having an inroad to meet his favorite player may have also figured into his decision.  I'm with you though on if we did get him, we may not have maximized his skills and it's possible he would've been used as Miller Kopp was, but who knows.  I do think Woodson understands the wing spot is a weakness with the staff targeting Sanon.  Hopefully there is a backup plan if that doesn't work out.

[NCHoosier32]

17 hours ago, Danomatic said:

Looking forward to next weekend. Lots to dissect and figure out for the staff. Hopefully X can come back and be effective. 
 

P.S. - I don’t think many expected us to do much this season, if we’re being honest. That being said, we just weren’t competitive today.

my frustration (and this isn't aimed necessarily at you) is i don't see why we wouldn't have high expectations this season.  only argument is we lost a lot from our roster.  that said, most high level teams do these days.  transfer portal, early NBA, etc.  new world of college bball is that the roster is going to change a lot every year.  so we have three 5 star guys, a 6th year PG, and a returning starter from last season.  that's not as much talent as most?

[NCHoosier32]

17 hours ago, IU Scott said:

Maybe he had to sub more because four or five guys have been sick this week

but wasn't this his normal subbing patterns?

[5fouls]

15 minutes ago, IUCrazy2 said:

Not filling that last scholarship with a guard was basically criminal malfeasance.

You should report it to the FBI.  

 

[tdhoosier]

2 minutes ago, NCHoosier32 said:

my frustration (and this isn't aimed necessarily at you) is i don't see why we wouldn't have high expectations this season.  only argument is we lost a lot from our roster.  that said, most high level teams do these days.  transfer portal, early NBA, etc.  new world of college bball is that the roster is going to change a lot every year.  so we have three 5 star guys, a 6th year PG, and a returning starter from last season.  that's not as much talent as most?

Very true. That said, two of those 5 stars are in the front court. The remaining 5 star is playing a 3 when he should be a 4. The 6th year PG is injured. 

We don't’ have balance. THere’s a reason why pundits didn’t project us high even with ‘all this talent’. They kept asking: ‘where’s the shooting’ and ‘where’s the guard depth’? We could have boat loads of talent, but if we can’t shoot, we’ll only get so far. 

I will be interested to see how Liam is used next year. I will also be interested to see who we pick up in the transfer portal. If we get 3 more forwards in the portal and if Liam gets delegated to the corner I think the writing will be on the wall. Let’s hope that doesn't’ happen.