jefftheref Posted January 5 Report Share Posted January 5 2 hours ago, IUFLA said: Mike Woodson isn't the one who committed 3 turnovers in 1 minute and 2 seconds versus Nebraska...That's on XJ... But he always seems to need a "warm up" period be it the beginning of the season or coming back off of a layoff...I hope this time it's a short one... Coaching (like any leadership position) can only put kids in a situation to succeed...Execution is up to the kid himself... Woodson is the coach. He decides who is on the team, who plays and when, what offense and defense we run and what substitutions need to be made. His game management sucks as well as his recruiting to balance the team. Dude can't be gone soon enough in my opinion. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IUFLA Posted January 5 Report Share Posted January 5 (edited) 23 minutes ago, tdhoosier said: I know we have a difference in opinion to how much the coaching staff is to blame for the performances. I’m only ‘bothering’ to reply, in order to get an understanding to where you’re coming from. I’d just like to know if you think the schemes have anything to do with our performance. If you think both execution and scheme are an issue, but moreso player execution, that is fine. Maybe you think it’s 80/20. I don’t know. But the way you’re posting (unless I missed something), it leads me to believe that the scheme is not an issue at all. Is this the case? Do you believe the coaches are completely off the hook here? I'm not sure I'd assign a percentage to it, but I'm not sure there's any such thing as a perfect scheme...You have to tailor your particular scheme to what you perceive as your team's strengths, right? And I'm positive there are no players who perfectly execute any scheme... You can absolutely make strategic mistakes as a coach, but to be honest, I'm not sure Coach Woodson has ever made 19 coaching missteps in a game So to answer your question, can there can be flaws in the scheme? I would imagine so...But I'd say our execution of what the coaches have drawn up for us is way more at fault in our subpar play than the scheme itself... Edited January 5 by IUFLA 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kyhoosier29 Posted January 5 Report Share Posted January 5 5 hours ago, Maedhros said: Crean was fired after a season in which Indiana finished 44th in KenPom and made the NIT. Only Archie's COVID team finished higher on KenPom, and that team didn't have to finish out the Big Ten or NCAA Tournaments. Crean wasn't fired because Indiana was a dumpster fire, he was fired because Indiana underachieved with a roster loaded with young talent. The 2017 team didn't have a point guard, after thinking Josh Newkirk could replace Yogi Ferrel, but we had four star talent everywhere else. And every player on that roster had eligibility to return. Thomas Bryant, OG Anunoby and James Blackmon went pro after their coach was fired. Archie didn't or couldn't convince any to stay. That still left four-star recruits Robert Johnson, Curtis Jones, Juwan Morgan and De'Ron Davis, with Justin Smith coming in. Hell even Clifton Moore was a high three star, like most of Archie's recruits, with skills that got him some draft buzz. Some of those names might get a goofy face from you now, knowing how their careers turned out, but those careers happened under Archie's coaching. Was the cupboard actually bare, or did Archie squander the talent he had on hand? It's a poor defense of a coach if the best you can say is the fired guy didn't leave him any good players. It rings particlarly hollow knowing that on the 2020 team, Archie's high point at IU, the one that maybe probably would have made the Tournament, three of the top four scorers were still Crean recruits. 👍. I’m not arguing about Archie Miller…. or the mediocre players he inherited (which weren’t good enough for IU), but you’re welcome to believe otherwise. He needed to go when he did and so will Woodson in a couple years if things don’t improve much. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IUFLA Posted January 5 Report Share Posted January 5 18 minutes ago, jefftheref said: Woodson is the coach. He decides who is on the team, who plays and when, what offense and defense we run and what substitutions need to be made. His game management sucks as well as his recruiting to balance the team. Dude can't be gone soon enough in my opinion. Who would you suggest as his replacement? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jefftheref Posted January 5 Report Share Posted January 5 3 minutes ago, IUFLA said: Who would you suggest as his replacement? At this point I have no idea. For me it doesn't have to be an Indiana Guy. I am tired of horse crap coaching, recruiting and execution on the court. I also don't think Dolson is the right guy to hire the best coach. Just my honest opinion. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
5fouls Posted January 5 Report Share Posted January 5 18 minutes ago, IUFLA said: Who would you suggest as his replacement? Brad Stevens 1 5 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BGleas Posted January 5 Report Share Posted January 5 Might be broken record here, but again on the "blame game" I don't think there's a right or a wrong here. It depends on whether you're looking through a micro or a macro lense. @IUFLA is right that 19 turnovers in the Nebraska game is largely a player issue. IU had some ridiculously boneheaded, low bball IQ turnovers in that game. Something like missed free throws is a player issue, poor defensive communication, etc. Those are largely execution things. They can be good/bad from a game-to-game basis and are largely on the players being ready to play, focused and executing. But, I also think some like myself, @KoB2011 and @tdhoosier are looking through a more macro lense. Things like poor 3pt defense over 2.5 years and an offensive scheme with bottom half in the nation or worse 3pt shooting volume over 2.5 years, or the nail, slot rim defense which can cause a lot of overhelping and contribute to the miscommunication issues over 2.5 years, poor guard/perimeter play over a period of time., etc. When those issues persist it's then a program/coach problem to solve. I really don't think there is a right or wrong here. The bottom line is college basketball coaches get paid an exorbitant amount of money. It's Mike's Woodson's job to collaborate with his staff and, in terms of guard play, XJ and Galloway, to figure out how to best utilize them and take advantage of their strengths in a way to makes our guard play an advantage and not a disadvantage. 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hoosierdave Posted January 5 Report Share Posted January 5 I guess instead of complaining about what has happened so far this season, here’s what I would like to see moving forward: -Utilize more of the action where we throw 3 people on one side and have either Ware/Reneau play a 2 man game with Gallo/X. I don’t love Ware/Reneau with their backs to the basket because they get it stripped or they don’t recognize the double quick enough and throw it away. I’d prefer simplifying things for them and getting them going towards the basket with a full head of steam, and worst case need 1-2 dribbles max before putting up a shot. I’d like to see us maximize Ware’s height and vertical because that is an objective advantage he has over a lot of guys he’ll face this year. -When we do throw the ball into the post for Ware/Reneau, make sure that Mac is the nearest perimeter option. He’s the most confident/comfortable catch & fire shooter. Gotta take the wide open 3s when they are available. if we need to reverse the ball, we have guys like Gallo and X that I’m confident can get to the rim/draw fouls because defenders are now out of position and scrambling. -Give Mac more isolation opportunities. I don’t love him getting the ball curling off a screen because he isn’t particularly fast and it forces him to put the ball on the deck in traffic. He’s also our best free throw shooter so giving him space to create against smaller guys could go a long way. Also, can we at least give him a shot at the 4? I’m baffled we haven’t seen a single minute of that yet, considering that would be utilizing him most effectively. -Utilize a zone more. If these guys are being taught to overhelp and prevent drives to the rim, might as well have Ware/Reneau under the basket to block shots and be in better positions to rebound and outlet the ball to guys like X and Gallo who then can get out in transition and run. -Maybe throw in a press occasionally? Considering that we don’t really utilize our guards for playmaking on the offensive side, might as well tire out the other teams guards. That way, you hope all those 3 point shots these teams take come up short because of tired legs, and the lack of power on the shot prevents those long rebounds that we constantly lose. We’re not a great rebounding and FT shooting team, so need to find ways to get extra possessions. Obviously having one open scholarship and no Jakai makes this a little more difficult. -Get into our sets much quicker on offense. Considering that we don’t shoot many 3s and play from behind constantly, you can’t afford to waste almost the whole shot clock aimlessly passing the ball around in a circle. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IUFLA Posted January 5 Report Share Posted January 5 1 hour ago, BGleas said: Might be broken record here, but again on the "blame game" I don't think there's a right or a wrong here. It depends on whether you're looking through a micro or a macro lense. @IUFLA is right that 19 turnovers in the Nebraska game is largely a player issue. IU had some ridiculously boneheaded, low bball IQ turnovers in that game. Something like missed free throws is a player issue, poor defensive communication, etc. Those are largely execution things. They can be good/bad from a game-to-game basis and are largely on the players being ready to play, focused and executing. But, I also think some like myself, @KoB2011 and @tdhoosier are looking through a more macro lense. Things like poor 3pt defense over 2.5 years and an offensive scheme with bottom half in the nation or worse 3pt shooting volume over 2.5 years, or the nail, slot rim defense which can cause a lot of overhelping and contribute to the miscommunication issues over 2.5 years, poor guard/perimeter play over a period of time., etc. When those issues persist it's then a program/coach problem to solve. I really don't think there is a right or wrong here. The bottom line is college basketball coaches get paid an exorbitant amount of money. It's Mike's Woodson's job to collaborate with his staff and, in terms of guard play, XJ and Galloway, to figure out how to best utilize them and take advantage of their strengths in a way to makes our guard play an advantage and not a disadvantage. So listen to this and tell me if you don't think Mike Woodson not only realizes what the issues are, but is also trying to address them... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KoB2011 Posted January 5 Report Share Posted January 5 27 minutes ago, IUFLA said: So listen to this and tell me if you don't think Mike Woodson not only realizes what the issues are, but is also trying to address them... What did you hear him say he is adjusting to his schemes, particularly the three point defense? Perimeter defense has been a problem the entire time he has been here. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IUFLA Posted January 5 Report Share Posted January 5 19 minutes ago, KoB2011 said: What did you hear him say he is adjusting to his schemes, particularly the three point defense? Perimeter defense has been a problem the entire time he has been here. He didn't...He said guys weren't communicating, and were missing switches...Just as @Coach Robby said he observed live... That's purely execution... 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KoB2011 Posted January 5 Report Share Posted January 5 13 minutes ago, IUFLA said: He didn't...He said guys weren't communicating, and were missing switches...Just as @Coach Robby said he observed live... That's purely execution... That does seem to be what he is blaming, yes. I just wanted to make sure I didn’t miss anything he said in there. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NCHoosier32 Posted January 5 Report Share Posted January 5 i go back to a previous poster saying we are in purgatory with Woodson at the helm. could be worse. can't fire him. gotta wait until he is ready to hang it up and hope we have the guts to go after a proven winner like Pearl or Beard. maybe May. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BGleas Posted January 5 Report Share Posted January 5 1 hour ago, IUFLA said: So listen to this and tell me if you don't think Mike Woodson not only realizes what the issues are, but is also trying to address them... Yeah, I don't think I said he doesn't know or isn't aware. But, it's his job to figure out how to get it done. Again, I think everyone is making valid points. You're not wrong. Miscommunications and bad/wrong switching has a lot to do with player execution. But as an example, the overhelping which is schematic, lends itself to being out of position, having to scramble on some recoveries due to the unnecessary overhelping and causes more miscommunication and bad switching scenarios. It has a tendency to put the players in bad situations. It lends itself to flying by shooters, leaving shooters open, penetration, etc. People want to say IU is super young, so maybe this defensive scheme is too much for the players to execute? Either way, it's often not working. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KoB2011 Posted January 5 Report Share Posted January 5 2 minutes ago, BGleas said: Yeah, I don't think I said he doesn't know or isn't aware. But, it's his job to figure out how to get it done. Again, I think everyone is making valid points. You're not wrong. Miscommunications and bad/wrong switching has a lot to do with player execution. But as an example, the overhelping which is schematic, lends itself to being out of position, having to scramble on some recoveries due to the unnecessary overhelping and causes more miscommunication and bad switching scenarios. It has a tendency to put the players in bad situations. It lends itself to flying by shooters, leaving shooters open, penetration, etc. People want to say IU is super young, so maybe this defensive scheme is too much for the players to execute? Either way, it's often not working. But even last year with a veteran team, and four guys that are now playing pro ball (or would be if not injured), we were barely a top 50 defense. You can go back and find clips of his Knicks teams with these issues and even articles talking about these issues the year they were a 2 seed - before they went to a big lineup and completely imploded. Now if we want to put some onus on the players needing to move more even when a set play isn’t called on offense I’ll agree with that. I definitely agree turnovers are more of a player issue and have mostly been pretty good under Woody, which is a result of what he emphasizes as a coach. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Parakeet Jones Posted January 5 Report Share Posted January 5 Guys, guys, guys, it’s not the coaches fault, it’s not the players fault, it’s the fans fault. This is all on us. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IUFLA Posted January 5 Report Share Posted January 5 1 minute ago, BGleas said: it's his job to figure out how to get it done. What are his options? In practice, keep preaching it. In game, replace the player who's not communicating... But most of the time you're sacrificing talent level when you do that, agreed? Very first Nebraska offensive possession from Wednesday... Mac goes under the screen (and even gets caught behind Ware), doesn't say anything that I could hear, Ware doesn't switch, and Williams drains the shot... And if you go back and watch, that's not the only time it happened... 9 minutes ago, BGleas said: the overhelping which is schematic I don't know, but I'll take your word for it... 9 minutes ago, BGleas said: People want to say IU is super young, so maybe this defensive scheme is too much for the players to execute? We are super young, or were when Cupps was starting... But I'm not sure a new scheme over the one we've worked on since day 1 of practice is going to be any easier to grasp... My own thought is, keep grinding and improving on what we have... Better execution, better results... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KoB2011 Posted January 5 Report Share Posted January 5 Just now, Parakeet Jones said: Guys, guys, guys, it’s not the coaches fault, it’s not the players fault, it’s the fans fault. This is all on us. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BGleas Posted January 5 Report Share Posted January 5 1 minute ago, IUFLA said: What are his options? In practice, keep preaching it. In game, replace the player who's not communicating... But most of the time you're sacrificing talent level when you do that, agreed? Very first Nebraska offensive possession from Wednesday... Mac goes under the screen (and even gets caught behind Ware), doesn't say anything that I could hear, Ware doesn't switch, and Williams drains the shot... And if you go back and watch, that's not the only time it happened... I don't know, but I'll take your word for it... We are super young, or were when Cupps was starting... But I'm not sure a new scheme over the one we've worked on since day 1 of practice is going to be any easier to grasp... My own thought is, keep grinding and improving on what we have... Better execution, better results... What you can do is stop the strategy of unnecessarily overhelping if the players aren't capable of executing it. It's the coaches job to put the players in schemes they can execute. 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NCHoosier32 Posted January 5 Report Share Posted January 5 4 minutes ago, Parakeet Jones said: Guys, guys, guys, it’s not the coaches fault, it’s not the players fault, it’s the fans fault. This is all on us. totally forgot about that. we could still fix this. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BGleas Posted January 5 Report Share Posted January 5 9 minutes ago, KoB2011 said: But even last year with a veteran team, and four guys that are now playing pro ball (or would be if not injured), we were barely a top 50 defense. You can go back and find clips of his Knicks teams with these issues and even articles talking about these issues the year they were a 2 seed - before they went to a big lineup and completely imploded. Now if we want to put some onus on the players needing to move more even when a set play isn’t called on offense I’ll agree with that. I definitely agree turnovers are more of a player issue and have mostly been pretty good under Woody, which is a result of what he emphasizes as a coach. Yeah, the defensive stuff if definitely schematic, but was just an example. We agree on the turnovers. It hasn't been a consistent issues and Wednesday was more of a player execution outlier. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IU Scott Posted January 5 Report Share Posted January 5 (edited) 1 hour ago, IUFLA said: He didn't...He said guys weren't communicating, and were missing switches...Just as @Coach Robby said he observed live... That's purely execution... Maybe he should try a different defensive scheme since this group can't play in this scheme It isn't just Woodson but I see many coaches who are stubborn and keep doing things not working. The best coaches adapt and change things to fit their personal. On Assembly Call last night they were talking about how this nail, slot defense is a good defense in the pros because those players are able to run this defense but college players struggle with it. Edited January 5 by IU Scott 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IU Scott Posted January 5 Report Share Posted January 5 47 minutes ago, NCHoosier32 said: i go back to a previous poster saying we are in purgatory with Woodson at the helm. could be worse. can't fire him. gotta wait until he is ready to hang it up and hope we have the guts to go after a proven winner like Pearl or Beard. maybe May. I hope you weren't serious about Beard. Hiring him could be the one thing to make me stop supporting IU basketball. I have no desire to see Pearl coach here as well but at least could stomach him because he didn't do anything against the law. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MoyeCowbell Posted January 5 Report Share Posted January 5 15 minutes ago, IU Scott said: I hope you weren't serious about Beard. Hiring him could be the one thing to make me stop supporting IU basketball. I have no desire to see Pearl coach here as well but at least could stomach him because he didn't do anything against the law. Wow. Of all things... interesting. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IUFLA Posted January 5 Report Share Posted January 5 22 minutes ago, IU Scott said: On Assembly Call last night they were talking about how this nail, slot defense is a good defense in the pros because those players are able to run this defense but college players struggle with it. Any coaches on there? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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