Is it Woodson or the Players?

[Zville Hoosier]

Been debating this with my IUBB buddies and there are two distinct factions so figured I’d get a pulse here…

[IU Scott]

I would say both, we have some talent in the front court but very little in the back court 

[iuswingman]

Woodson built this mess of a roster.

Came in saying 4 out, 1 in offense and he constructs 1 out, 4 in.

The nba coach angle only helps recruiting for a short while if you are crap at actual coaching

Edited February 19 by iuswingman

[EvilleHoosier]

I would also say it is a little bit of both, but It's on Woodson to build a complete balanced roster and put his players in position to succeed.  We have had poor execution and very inconsistent play, but it is up to Woody to field a roster with enough talent to go to in the event there is an injury/injuries, foul trouble, or if rotation players aren't bringing it on a given night. Everyone except Galloway, Leal, and Gunn are his recruits.  He built a roster with 2 point guards, shooting guards who can't shoot consistently, a crap ton of 4 and 5's and no true wing players.  Woodson keeps saying the team just isn't knocking down shots, but it is his job to find players who can and it's his job to run an offense that gets his players good looks.

[ephul]

28 minutes ago, iuswingman said:

Woodson built this mess of a roster.

Came in saying 4 out, 1 in offense and he constructs 1 out, 4 in.

The nba coach angle only helps recruiting for a short while if you are crap at actual coaching

Maybe Woodson was referring to our actual shots when he was talking about "4 out, 1 in".

[tdhoosier]

I think this should’ve been phrased who is more responsible. Each can take responsibility, but…..

I will say that Malik and Ware would start on just about all rosters in the B1G. I think that Mgbako and Galloway would start on most rosters, given that they play their nature positions/fill roles. That says a lot, IMO.

Also….

If the issues of not rebounding, not hitting free throws and turning the ball over are still an issue over a 3 year span, then I’m sorry: these aspects of the game are not being emphasized by the coaching staff and/or not being practiced to the degree that other teams who are good in these areas practice them. And/or we are not recruiting players who demonstrate these fundamentals. 

AND IF we are going to be playing an inside/out style that doesn’t shoot 3s at a high volume, we are going to be playing from an analytical disadvantage that will require us to be efficient with our possessions. HENCE we need to rebound, capitalize on free throws and not turn the ball over!

SO OBVIOUSLY, the style we play requires us to be very good at the exact same aspects we are very bad at. 

I’m giving a good 75% of the blame to the coaching staff. I’m not saying this team should be a world beater by any means. BUT I think a proven college basketball coach with above average career results, would have this team on the bubble (at the very least). 

Edited February 19 by tdhoosier

[IndyResident16]

A combination of both.

The coach stinks and the players he recruited neither play hard or smart. 

That's never a winning combination. 

[NotIThatLives]

54 minutes ago, IndyResident16 said:

A combination of both.

The coach stinks and the players he recruited neither play hard or smart. 

That's never a winning combination. 

The amount of hustle compared to Northwestern was so stark in contrast it was embarrassing.  My 5 year old asked why Indiana isn't very good at basketball.  I said, they don't pass, they don't move, they don't block out.  Simple stuff he's about to learn at the ymca.  The same stuff every kid learns in pe class as an elementary kid in Indiana.   It's baffling.  We make basketball look hard.  

[Hoosierdave]

It’s absolutely a mixture of both but a coaching staffs responsibility includes: roster construction, minute allocation and substitution patterns, scouting, style of play, recruiting, practice prep, game film, etc.

Our roster was poorly constructed and our style of play is one dimensional. We’ve been better about it but lost momentum in several games from mass subbing. Our team doesn’t seem to adapt to other teams strategies well. Not sure what we do in practice because we can’t do anything well outside of scoring the basket within 5 feet of the bucket. Our scouting reports evidently suck because we give wide open shots to teams best shooters and always have to climb out of a deficit.

Something that also gets overlooked is the impact a coaching staff has on motivating players and building a culture and identity. I remember a quote from Bob Knight talking about how a player couldn’t jump high enough to touch the back board. Knight put a $10 bill on the back board and told the kid if he hit it, he’d keep it. Of course, first try, he did just that.  
 

It doesn’t look like this team wants to fight and scrap for each other and this staff. That culture is on Woody. 

[IndyResident16]

1 minute ago, NotIThatLives said:

The amount of hustle compared to Northwestern was so stark in contrast it was embarrassing.  My 5 year old asked why Indiana isn't very good at basketball.  I said, they don't pass, they don't move, they don't block out.  Simple stuff he's about to learn at the ymca.  The same stuff every kid learns in pe class as an elementary kid in Indiana.   It's baffling.  We make basketball look hard.  

Free throws and hustle have probably attributed to 3-4 losses this season despite having one of the worst back courts in college basketball. Difference of being on the bubble and finding out if you're hosting an NIT game. 

[IowaHoosierFan]

Its the FANS Fault. Just kidding!!!

Definitely a combination of staff and players.  Things like free throws fall on players to put in the extra effort, after practice, on weekends and evening putting up thousands of shots to be ready.  Effort is completely on the players.  Galloway, although annoys the living shit out of me that he is always in the air or on the ground or falling away, usually give 100% when he is on the floor.  I just wish he would learn to to dial it back about 10% most of the time.  Anyways, the coaching staff is responsible for roster construction, offense and defensive schemes.  And how those pieces fit into those schemes or how to adjust the scheme to fit the platers.  I feels like sometimes we constantly trying to pound a 4x4 square peg into a round pin hole.

There is alot of talent on this team.  And each of those talented players have holes in their games that they and the coach need to work on fixing.  And it feels like neither of them want to put the effort into doing so.

Go Hoosiers.

Edited February 19 by IowaHoosierFan

[13th&Jackson]

It's both, but it's more the coaches.  Think about this, in one game against IU:

Langborg tied his career high scoring (26 with Princeton) and tied his season high in assists.

Martinelli had his first career double double (13/13).

Nicholson also had his first career double double (16/14). 

All three were three star recruits ranked in the 40-60 range at their position. 

It's really almost impossible to believe that those three players would achieve those career milestones in the same game on the road against a B1G team. 

Editing to add this from the NW post game thread. This is the epitome of being out coached and not having a team prepared:

From Collins' post game comments:

They've had 8 days off to prepare for us, and we were on the East Coast with a real dogfight of a game at Rutgers Thursday night and then real minimal prep for this game. This game was a testament to these guys' will. We had a lineup on the floor in the end of the first half that never in my wildest imagination thought that would be on the floor at Indiana in a late season game that we needed to win. 

Edited February 19 by 13th&Jackson

[IowaHoosierFan]

2 minutes ago, 13th&Jackson said:

It's both, but it's more the coaches.  Think about this, in one game against IU:

Langborg tied his career high scoring (26 with Princeton) and tied his season high in assists.

Martinelli had his first career double double (13/13).

Nicholson also had his first career double double (16/14). 

All three were three star recruits ranked in the 40-60 range at their position. 

That's really almost impossible to believe that those three players would achieve those career milestones in the same game on the road against a B1G team. 

 

I don't know how far back i would have to go, but it feels like some player has had a career night against IU for like 20 years now.  

[13th&Jackson]

1 minute ago, IowaHoosierFan said:

I don't know how far back i would have to go, but it feels like some player has had a career night against IU for like 20 years now.  

One player yes, always. But three in the same game? That's a total systemic failure. 

[Zville Hoosier]

Great responses so far and you’re right @tdhoosier, better phrasing would have been “Who is MORE responsible”, which was the spirit of the question. I’m with you, I lay 75% of the blame at Woody’s feet based on all the items covered… roster construction, scheme, lack of adjustments, culture, etc. If I were Dolan I’d demand a detailed read out on exactly what Woodson is going to change for next year (assuming like most of us do that he’ll get a 4th year) and if I don’t like what I hear, changes need to be made asap. And I’d do that NOW. And if Woodson says the right things but they don’t come to fruition next year, you’ve got clear documentation to point back to as to why this just isn't going to work and can part ways in time to find someone new. 

[Common Sense]

It appears we don't have the talent and Woodson's system is terrible.  

I want the third choice.  

[Seeking6]

Being born into a Knight household and IU world I'm just a guy who has always defended our Coach first and foremost.  I did it with any of the post Knight guys (not named Dakich). It's just the way I was programmed as a fan. I'm more Pro Coach vs Pro Player. Probably always will be.

Not going to get into all the nuances of this year. I could join the other 4 threads. Coach Woodson knows the game. His sets produce tons of wide open shots...and not just this year. I think we were leading all of hoops last year in that category. We just haven't had kids make shots....and Coach Woodson understands that's on him.

Finish the season. See if we can get any sort of momentum and give Coach a chance to make the changes this offseason. If we don't...no problem after the end of next season and make a change if next year is similar.

But canning a Coach after 3 years where he brought us back into tourney fold immediately? Nope. Not even going there. I could bring up all the examples of Coach K, Tony Bennett....shoot even in our conference with Painter, Underwood,etc...he deserves a year to fix it. 

[rogue3542]

16 hours ago, iuswingman said:

Woodson built this mess of a roster.

Came in saying 4 out, 1 in offense and he constructs 1 out, 4 in.

The nba coach angle only helps recruiting for a short while if you are crap at actual coaching

This is the correct answer. We have talent, but it’s all inside - and the talent we do have in the guard position can’t be utilized correctly because we are so thin there.

[13th&Jackson]

21 minutes ago, Seeking6 said:

Being born into a Knight household and IU world I'm just a guy who has always defended our Coach first and foremost.  I did it with any of the post Knight guys (not named Dakich). It's just the way I was programmed as a fan. I'm more Pro Coach vs Pro Player. Probably always will be.

Not going to get into all the nuances of this year. I could join the other 4 threads. Coach Woodson knows the game. His sets produce tons of wide open shots...and not just this year. I think we were leading all of hoops last year in that category. We just haven't had kids make shots....and Coach Woodson understands that's on him.

Finish the season. See if we can get any sort of momentum and give Coach a chance to make the changes this offseason. If we don't...no problem after the end of next season and make a change if next year is similar.

But canning a Coach after 3 years where he brought us back into tourney fold immediately? Nope. Not even going there. I could bring up all the examples of Coach K, Tony Bennett....shoot even in our conference with Painter, Underwood,etc...he deserves a year to fix it. 

Oh I've said there's no chance they fire him after 3 years. But here's the problem.  You said, "His sets produce tons of wide open shots...and not just this year. I think we were leading all of hoops last year in that category. We just haven't had kids make shots."

Since CMW has been coach, these are IU's ranking in 3pt attempts per game: 319, 352 and 354 this year. If his sets produce wide open shots, then the players aren't attempting them or the open shots are long 2s, which opponents are allowing because it's a bad shot. 

[IndyResident16]

2 hours ago, Seeking6 said:

Being born into a Knight household and IU world I'm just a guy who has always defended our Coach first and foremost.  I did it with any of the post Knight guys (not named Dakich). It's just the way I was programmed as a fan. I'm more Pro Coach vs Pro Player. Probably always will be.

Not going to get into all the nuances of this year. I could join the other 4 threads. Coach Woodson knows the game. His sets produce tons of wide open shots...and not just this year. I think we were leading all of hoops last year in that category. We just haven't had kids make shots....and Coach Woodson understands that's on him.

Finish the season. See if we can get any sort of momentum and give Coach a chance to make the changes this offseason. If we don't...no problem after the end of next season and make a change if next year is similar.

But canning a Coach after 3 years where he brought us back into tourney fold immediately? Nope. Not even going there. I could bring up all the examples of Coach K, Tony Bennett....shoot even in our conference with Painter, Underwood,etc...he deserves a year to fix it. 

None of those guys were 65 years old ALREADY on a retirement tour. The entire Woodson experiment was supposed to be a 3-4 year stop gap. So he gets year 4 on principle (although that shouldn't be the case),then what? He's going to have to bring in 5-6 one year mercenaries to try and even get back to a level of respectability. The entire thing is going to have to be burned down for the next guy. Woodson has zero interest in trying to build a foundation. His recruiting sucks. His roster construction sucks. He's not leaving anything behind for his successor. Best case scenario IU limps into the tournament next year, Woody can retire on a semi-high note, but we still lose 7-8 players that brought in to salvage the next season. It's just a horrible situation all around. 

The IU administration and Quinn Buckner needs to come out and admit this was a failed experiment, cut bait, and get out in front of it NOW. Chances are that next year ends up being worse than this year and you're forced to fire Woodson.

Edited February 19 by IndyResident16

[IUFLA]

2 hours ago, Seeking6 said:

Being born into a Knight household and IU world I'm just a guy who has always defended our Coach first and foremost.  I did it with any of the post Knight guys (not named Dakich). It's just the way I was programmed as a fan. I'm more Pro Coach vs Pro Player. Probably always will be.

Not going to get into all the nuances of this year. I could join the other 4 threads. Coach Woodson knows the game. His sets produce tons of wide open shots...and not just this year. I think we were leading all of hoops last year in that category. We just haven't had kids make shots....and Coach Woodson understands that's on him.

Finish the season. See if we can get any sort of momentum and give Coach a chance to make the changes this offseason. If we don't...no problem after the end of next season and make a change if next year is similar.

But canning a Coach after 3 years where he brought us back into tourney fold immediately? Nope. Not even going there. I could bring up all the examples of Coach K, Tony Bennett....shoot even in our conference with Painter, Underwood,etc...he deserves a year to fix it. 

X 1000

Brings about the question "did Bob Knight forget how to coach in 1985?"

His seniors that year were Uwe Blab and (ironically) Dan Dakich...Steve Alford was his best player, but he was only a sophomore and simply wasn't ready to assume the leadership mantle...

And @tdhoosier made a good point...Trey Galloway has been asked to do too much...I've always thought he was a decent defender, but yesterday he was guarding Langborg most of the time, and that didn't work out so well...We can't ask him score, facilitate, defend, and have to shoulder the whole leadership load and expect him to be great at all of them...

And I've said this before, but on the court leadership is the biggest flaw in this team, and yeah, that's on Coach Woodson...But it was a mistake born out of trust and loyalty...XJ hasn't been able to lead because of immaturity and injury...Walker and Leal are limited by their skills...So it's fallen to Trey...And I know he's trying...

I also believe that Woody expected a bigger sophomore jump from Banks and Gunn...I remember seeing video of CJ working on his shot in the offseason...But even practicing shooting is fun...Put me in mind of an article I read on Miller Kopp last year who focused on his physical limitations playing defense by working all summer on his lateral quickness and studying film...Kopp was one of our better team defenders last year, and came up with some nice efforts (remember at Michigan?)...His off season work, while probably boring, helped his team...It's not talent that's keeping CJ off the floor...

 

 

[IndyResident16]

7 minutes ago, IUFLA said:

X 1000

Brings about the question "did Bob Knight forget how to coach in 1985?"

His seniors that year were Uwe Blab and (ironically) Dan Dakich...Steve Alford was his best player, but he was only a sophomore and simply wasn't ready to assume the leadership mantle...

And @tdhoosier made a good point...Trey Galloway has been asked to do too much...I've always thought he was a decent defender, but yesterday he was guarding Langborg most of the time, and that didn't work out so well...We can't ask him score, facilitate, defend, and have to shoulder the whole leadership load and expect him to be great at all of them...

And I've said this before, but on the court leadership is the biggest flaw in this team, and yeah, that's on Coach Woodson...But it was a mistake born out of trust and loyalty...XJ hasn't been able to lead because of immaturity and injury...Walker and Leal are limited by their skills...So it's fallen to Trey...And I know he's trying...

I also believe that Woody expected a bigger sophomore jump from Banks and Gunn...I remember seeing video of CJ working on his shot in the offseason...But even practicing shooting is fun...Put me in mind of an article I read on Miller Kopp last year who focused on his physical limitations playing defense by working all summer on his lateral quickness and studying film...Kopp was one of our better team defenders last year, and came up with some nice efforts (remember at Michigan?)...His off season work, while probably boring, helped his team...It's not talent that's keeping CJ off the floor...

 

 

Bob Knight had already won 2 national titles by 1985 and was still 20 years younger than Woodson is today. What an odd comparison. Where is the long term hope with Woodson not only next year but in the years to follow? He’s going to get a 4th year unless Dolson grows a pair a stones, but not because he’s earned it.

[Zuckerkorn]

Of the two choices it has to be Woodson.  Certainly both are factors but the tiebreaker is that Mike Woodson chose the roster and who plays.

[IUFLA]

2 minutes ago, IndyResident16 said:

Bob Knight had already won 2 national titles by 1985 and was still 20 years younger than Woodson is today. What an odd comparison. Where is the long term hope with Woodson not only next year but in the years to follow? He’s going to get a 4th year unless Dolson grows a pair a stones, but not because he’s earned it.

You're missing the point...ANY coach can have a down season if they don't get their on the court leaders to actually lead...

And, yeah, he has earned a chance next year...

[Hoosier4Life53]

It’s on Woody because we have talent, but it’s just not the right mix. Hard to imagine adding Sparks and Walker, and not adding a scoring guard. Hopefully, next year will be different.