Billingsley99 Posted October 15, 2019 Report Share Posted October 15, 2019 18 minutes ago, IU Scott said: I totally agree but most managers limit their starters to around 6 innings a games Even in the playoff when their starters are going great they have taken them out after 7 which is ridiculous. You have to be in the game. Get 7 from your starter is the norm in the playoffs. Relievers make big bucks also to close the door. 3 and 4th time through the line up. All those things add up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IU Scott Posted October 15, 2019 Report Share Posted October 15, 2019 5 minutes ago, Billingsley99 said: You have to be in the game. Get 7 from your starter is the norm in the playoffs. Relievers make big bucks also to close the door. 3 and 4th time through the line up. All those things add up. It is all in the mind set and todays pitchers has been taught to throw as hard as long as they can then go out. If their mind set was to finish what they started they would be able to do it but they have been told for so long that the 3rd time through the lineup they will falter. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Billingsley99 Posted October 15, 2019 Report Share Posted October 15, 2019 20 minutes ago, IU Scott said: It is all in the mind set and todays pitchers has been taught to throw as hard as long as they can then go out. If their mind set was to finish what they started they would be able to do it but they have been told for so long that the 3rd time through the lineup they will falter. Not even close to accurate. I know 4 professional pitchers and not 1 of them would agree withyou. Every team they played on until they reached the majors over used them. From travel ball to college to the minors. The pros know they are an investment and they are protected. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IU Scott Posted October 15, 2019 Report Share Posted October 15, 2019 If baseball is not careful they will truly lose a lot of log time fans if things keep going they are going. to me they are trying to make everything so perfect and scientific that they are taking a lot of the excitement of the game away. From the constant pitching changes to mound visits and the shift taking away hitters hitting for average. It leads to specialization where you starter are only going 5-6 innings and seeing multiple pitching changes in an inning. Also everyone is using the launch angle so they can hit more homeruns which is taking away guys hitting singles and doubles. Teams just waiting on the homerun and when it does not come can' sore any other way. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IU Scott Posted October 15, 2019 Report Share Posted October 15, 2019 1 minute ago, Billingsley99 said: Not even close to accurate. I know 4 professional pitchers and not 1 of them would agree withyou. Every team they played on until they reached the majors over used them. From travel ball to college to the minors. The pros know they are an investment and they are protected. Well early on in high school and parents should limit their kids going to summer ball and not over use them at an early age. It is the parents who try to get their kids noticed that leads to all of this over use. again you are probably going by todays players that you know and their mindset has always been around babying the pitchers. If they would go into it knowing how to pitch and condition themselves to go more than 5 or 6 innings these great athletes should be able to do it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Billingsley99 Posted October 15, 2019 Report Share Posted October 15, 2019 19 minutes ago, IU Scott said: If baseball is not careful they will truly lose a lot of log time fans if things keep going they are going. to me they are trying to make everything so perfect and scientific that they are taking a lot of the excitement of the game away. From the constant pitching changes to mound visits and the shift taking away hitters hitting for average. It leads to specialization where you starter are only going 5-6 innings and seeing multiple pitching changes in an inning. Also everyone is using the launch angle so they can hit more homeruns which is taking away guys hitting singles and doubles. Teams just waiting on the homerun and when it does not come can' sore any other way. The main thing that may turn fans away is length of game and down time. Many fans like the strategy involved. Many thought the DH would ruin the game and take away the strategy . Has not happened yet. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Billingsley99 Posted October 15, 2019 Report Share Posted October 15, 2019 19 minutes ago, IU Scott said: Well early on in high school and parents should limit their kids going to summer ball and not over use them at an early age. It is the parents who try to get their kids noticed that leads to all of this over use. again you are probably going by todays players that you know and their mindset has always been around babying the pitchers. If they would go into it knowing how to pitch and condition themselves to go more than 5 or 6 innings these great athletes should be able to do it. I just said all their coaches over threw them. 3 of the 4 multiple arm surgeries and are out of the league before 30 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Billingsley99 Posted October 15, 2019 Report Share Posted October 15, 2019 20 minutes ago, IU Scott said: Well early on in high school and parents should limit their kids going to summer ball and not over use them at an early age. It is the parents who try to get their kids noticed that leads to all of this over use. again you are probably going by todays players that you know and their mindset has always been around babying the pitchers. If they would go into it knowing how to pitch and condition themselves to go more than 5 or 6 innings these great athletes should be able to do it. It's not only the parents if you have a top notch pitcher almost every coach will ride them to try and win games. We were the type of parent that informed coaches on how long my son could go. I kept him on a pitch count. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IU Scott Posted October 15, 2019 Report Share Posted October 15, 2019 2 minutes ago, Billingsley99 said: I just said all their coaches over threw them. 3 of the 4 multiple arm surgeries and are out of the league before 30 Like I said before the main problem is that these kids are trying to throw to hard to early in their careers and are taught to throw as hard as they can for as long as they can. if they are taught at an early age to actually pitch and not just throw then they might not have all of these problems. If all you try to do is strikeout every hitter you will have a lot of deep counts and a lot of walks. To me it is not the amount of innings that are put on an arm but it is the number of pitches. if they learn to be efficient with their pitches and get outs early in the count that would limit amount of pitches. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IU Scott Posted October 15, 2019 Report Share Posted October 15, 2019 3 minutes ago, Billingsley99 said: It's not only the parents if you have a top notch pitcher almost every coach will ride them to try and win games. We were the type of parent that informed coaches on how long my son could go. I kept him on a pitch count. Early on that is how it should be but most parents see $$$ or scholarships and don't care. Also they need to limit on how much breaking balls these kids throw during their little league years. When I played little league we had a pitcher on my team that could throw 70-75 but he threw a great curve ball and a knuckle ball. By the time he got to high school his arm was pretty much useless and never played high school. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Billingsley99 Posted October 15, 2019 Report Share Posted October 15, 2019 25 minutes ago, IU Scott said: Well early on in high school and parents should limit their kids going to summer ball and not over use them at an early age. It is the parents who try to get their kids noticed that leads to all of this over use. again you are probably going by todays players that you know and their mindset has always been around babying the pitchers. If they would go into it knowing how to pitch and condition themselves to go more than 5 or 6 innings these great athletes should be able to do it. Most stud pitchers in high school go 7 most nights. They pitch every big game and they are I. Much better shape than pitchers 20 30 40 years ago. The hitting had gotten better, players specialize and the pitcher role has changed. That's the evolution of the game. The forward pass was going to ruin football. Sports evolve. Basketball is now almost postionless, not saying better or worse but as all things it is changing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Billingsley99 Posted October 15, 2019 Report Share Posted October 15, 2019 21 minutes ago, IU Scott said: Like I said before the main problem is that these kids are trying to throw to hard to early in their careers and are taught to throw as hard as they can for as long as they can. if they are taught at an early age to actually pitch and not just throw then they might not have all of these problems. If all you try to do is strikeout every hitter you will have a lot of deep counts and a lot of walks. To me it is not the amount of innings that are put on an arm but it is the number of pitches. if they learn to be efficient with their pitches and get outs early in the count that would limit amount of pitches. Much of what you say contradicts itself. A lot of pitching depends on the level of hitting. Until he was 13 my son was unhittable. He had great control and could locate pitches. Once he faced better competition he had to get creative and it has only gotten harder to get outs. Every starting pitcher that I have ever met has the mindset to throw q complete game. They are not conditioned to only go 5 . They get ticker off too Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IU Scott Posted October 15, 2019 Report Share Posted October 15, 2019 3 minutes ago, Billingsley99 said: Most stud pitchers in high school go 7 most nights. They pitch every big game and they are I. Much better shape than pitchers 20 30 40 years ago. The hitting had gotten better, players specialize and the pitcher role has changed. That's the evolution of the game. The forward pass was going to ruin football. Sports evolve. Basketball is now almost postionless, not saying better or worse but as all things it is changing. Problem with baseball is that they are trying to attract younger fans but it is not really working and at the same time they are alienating the fans they have. Baseball is a very simple game but people today are trying to make it way more complicated than it needs to be. All the analytics is taking away a lot of the things that fans use to really enjoy like base running and seeing batters using all of the field. Like I said besides the Reds winning the world series my favorite all time game was game 7 of the World Series between the Braves and Twins. today that game would never happen because both starters were allowed to go through jams and not taken out at the first sign of trouble. Morris went the full 10 innings for the complete game shutout. Smoltz went 9 shutout innings but was taken out to only see the bullpen give it up. today both would have went 7 innings and the last 3 innings would been mind numbing pitching change after pitching chabge to ruin any excitement that last 3 innings had. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Billingsley99 Posted October 15, 2019 Report Share Posted October 15, 2019 26 minutes ago, IU Scott said: Early on that is how it should be but most parents see $$$ or scholarships and don't care. Also they need to limit on how much breaking balls these kids throw during their little league years. When I played little league we had a pitcher on my team that could throw 70-75 but he threw a great curve ball and a knuckle ball. By the time he got to high school his arm was pretty much useless and never played high school. You described me. Had 2 surgeries before I was a freshman and only played 1 year of high school. My son did not throw a curve ball until his freshman year he learned to locate and change speeds. Most parents of elite type players know that their son will be seen if good enough no matter what. The problem is many parents live through their kids. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IU Scott Posted October 15, 2019 Report Share Posted October 15, 2019 3 minutes ago, Billingsley99 said: Much of what you say contradicts itself. A lot of pitching depends on the level of hitting. Until he was 13 my son was unhittable. He had great control and could locate pitches. Once he faced better competition he had to get creative and it has only gotten harder to get outs. Every starting pitcher that I have ever met has the mindset to throw q complete game. They are not conditioned to only go 5 . They get ticker off too I am not blaming the players at all but it is just how the people who manage the game that frustrates me. Any competitor doesn't want to come out of the game nd I saw a lot of the Reds pitchers steaming being taken out after 5 innings. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IU Scott Posted October 15, 2019 Report Share Posted October 15, 2019 Just now, Billingsley99 said: You described me. Had 2 surgeries before I was a freshman and only played 1 year of high school. My son did not throw a curve ball until his freshman year he learned to locate and change speeds. Most parents of elite type players know that their son will be seen if good enough no matter what. The problem is many parents live through their kids. Yes and you see that in any sport and what I really hate seeing is making kids at a young age pick one sport and specialize in that sport. Also you don't see kids just going out with friends to just play the game for fun any more but it is all about travel sports. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Billingsley99 Posted October 15, 2019 Report Share Posted October 15, 2019 26 minutes ago, IU Scott said: Problem with baseball is that they are trying to attract younger fans but it is not really working and at the same time they are alienating the fans they have. Baseball is a very simple game but people today are trying to make it way more complicated than it needs to be. All the analytics is taking away a lot of the things that fans use to really enjoy like base running and seeing batters using all of the field. Like I said besides the Reds winning the world series my favorite all time game was game 7 of the World Series between the Braves and Twins. today that game would never happen because both starters were allowed to go through jams and not taken out at the first sign of trouble. Morris went the full 10 innings for the complete game shutout. Smoltz went 9 shutout innings but was taken out to only see the bullpen give it up. today both would have went 7 innings and the last 3 innings would been mind numbing pitching change after pitching chabge to ruin any excitement that last 3 innings had. Every good coach in every sport has used analytics since the beginning of games they just did not call it that. Coach Knight had charts that showed charts showing percentage of shots from every spot on floor and where the rebounds will go. You know the worst shooters and who to foul etc.. you would be a poor coach in todays game if you did not use the technology. Coaches did it the old fashion way but they did it. Was it analytics to decide it's better to walk Bonds than to pitch to him. Yes, go back to Babe Ruth same thing or not to let guys like Ty Cobb or Lou Brock to get a good jump. Coaches timing pitchers delivery to give the runner an advantage again analytics but without the fancy name. It's all called coachinh Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Billingsley99 Posted October 15, 2019 Report Share Posted October 15, 2019 31 minutes ago, IU Scott said: I am not blaming the players at all but it is just how the people who manage the game that frustrates me. Any competitor doesn't want to come out of the game nd I saw a lot of the Reds pitchers steaming being taken out after 5 innings. Manager dont get paid to keep players happy. Winning is the best way to keep players happy. Ask John Smoltz if he would be happier pitching 7 innings and winning or 9 and take a loss Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IU Scott Posted October 15, 2019 Report Share Posted October 15, 2019 11 minutes ago, Billingsley99 said: Manager dont get paid to keep players happy. Winning is the best way to keep players happy. Ask John Smoltz if he would be happier pitching 7 innings and winning or 9 and take a loss Well back then your best pitchers with the best arms were your starters and they gave you the best chance of winning. I think Smoltz did very well by pitching deep into games and if they tried to take him out of a close game after 5 he would have went berserk. Today a lot of your best arms are put in the bullpen and told to just throw hard for one inning and we will take you out. Those guys only pitch 3 to 4 innings a week and you are using your best arms for that. is ridiculous if you asked me. Like with the Reds where they kept Chapman in the bullpen instead of going back to starting him. To me that was like making Randy Johnson your closer and only using him 3 to 4 innings a week which is a waste to me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Billingsley99 Posted October 15, 2019 Report Share Posted October 15, 2019 34 minutes ago, IU Scott said: Well back then your best pitchers with the best arms were your starters and they gave you the best chance of winning. I think Smoltz did very well by pitching deep into games and if they tried to take him out of a close game after 5 he would have went berserk. Today a lot of your best arms are put in the bullpen and told to just throw hard for one inning and we will take you out. Those guys only pitch 3 to 4 innings a week and you are using your best arms for that. is ridiculous if you asked me. Like with the Reds where they kept Chapman in the bullpen instead of going back to starting him. To me that was like making Randy Johnson your closer and only using him 3 to 4 innings a week which is a waste to me. I bet Smoltz didnt have too much of a problem becoming a closer to extend his career a few more years. I just am not on board with the thought that all change is bad. I don't like seeing a dozen pitching changes but if that is what helps give my team the best chance to win then I endure and cheer like crazy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IU Scott Posted October 15, 2019 Report Share Posted October 15, 2019 15 minutes ago, Billingsley99 said: I bet Smoltz didnt have too much of a problem becoming a closer to extend his career a few more years. I just am not on board with the thought that all change is bad. I don't like seeing a dozen pitching changes but if that is what helps give my team the best chance to win then I endure and cheer like crazy The question is does it really help your team win. I never said all changes are bad but what I am seeing in the NFL and MLB has not been favorable to me. For me changes like the 3 point line and the shot clock being implemented in the college games was really good. What I don't like is now how they use each one of those things like teams only shooting the 3 or a layup. I also don't like that they changed the shot clock down to 30 seconds. It seems like they make changes then it goes over board to another extreme. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
5fouls Posted October 15, 2019 Report Share Posted October 15, 2019 For some reason, my arm hurts. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IUFLA Posted October 16, 2019 Report Share Posted October 16, 2019 Cole wasn't quite as dominant as Strasburg, but you can't argue about the results. Since May 25th, 19-0... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rico Posted October 16, 2019 Author Report Share Posted October 16, 2019 Scott, give it up. You just want to argue and you like that. Love ya...but you are wrong. You say you are "old school", keep in mind I am older than you. I brought up Billyball...you side stepped that one. How about "Iron Mike", he was ran into the ground. Hell Cubs fans would tell you that Dusty ran Prior and Wood into the ground. How about Sullivan for the Reds? Maybe Mario Soto? Me thinks you are barking up the wrong tree. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IUFLA Posted October 16, 2019 Report Share Posted October 16, 2019 Well, it wasn't a 10 spot like the Cards slapped on the Braves, but 7-0 in the first is looking mighty gloomy for the Redbirds... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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