IU vs Seton Hall. Game thread

[NCHoosier32]

definitely can't judge CAM yet.  talent matters and so does time to install your system.  i think next year we can expect it to show more, but barring something bizarre, you really can't hold college coaches accountable until they have been somewhere for at least 4 seasons.

[addictedtoIU]

6 minutes ago, FW_Hoosier said:

Rob’s stats were really deceiving last night.  He didn’t take a single shot until there were 7 and a half minutes left in the first half.  He scored 4 points on 2-3 shooting (0-1 from three) in those last 7 minutes of the first half.  He took 1 shot in the first 12 minutes of the second half, another missed 3.  Then, when we were down 16 with 8 and a half minutes left, he decided to start playing, going 3-6 from the field, 2-3 at the line, and 0-1 from 3.  8 of his 12 points came in garbage time when the game was already over.  It was an absolutely atrocious game for him on both ends.

Edit: And Morgan has never shown he can shoot.  He’s 15-55 (27.3%) for his career.  He hit 5 threes his freshman year, that meant nothing.

You made a good point. Box score can be deceiving and a lot of players exert their efforts to pad their stats in garbage time. It really matters how these guys played in breaking moments. Maybe it's easier said than done, but that differentiates good players from so-so or bad players.

[FW_Hoosier]

Agree that we pretty much have to throw this season out the window, as the upperclassmen look like a lost cause so far.  But if we don’t make the tournament next season, and aren’t competing for at least a top 4-5 seed the season after that, CAM isn’t the answer.  We won 2 Big Ten titles in 5 years and fired the coach.  Archie doesn’t have that long of a leash.

[JaybobHoosier]

I’m usually a little tougher in my critique of teams in the past, but this season is different. Learning a completely different system is tough, and it takes awhile to adjust. Doing it in practice helps, but game time will truly fix everything. To me, constant improvements from game to game is most crucial. Losing sucks, but once this team adjusts and understands the system, this will be a darn good team. I’m not saying an NCAA Tourney team, but a team that will fight in every game making it close.

I’m liking the direction of this team so far after the horrid start, a lot of improvements. Of course there have been some negatives and player issues, but overall I’m really liking the progress the team is showing after each game.

[addictedtoIU]

11 minutes ago, NCHoosier32 said:

definitely can't judge CAM yet.  talent matters and so does time to install your system.  i think next year we can expect it to show more, but barring something bizarre, you really can't hold college coaches accountable until they have been somewhere for at least 4 seasons.

Agreed. Anyone questioning CAM's ability needs to think again. We're in a not-so-good situation where we have to depend on older players that are not leaders nor even decent basketball players. Communication is lacking on the court and their non-verbal communication is not positive at all. We're not a young team, but our team is led by underclassmen who still try to figure out college games. 

[cohete15]

I’ve already passed judgement on Archie. And while I wish we were 3-0 or 2-1, I am thrilled with what I’ve seen from him thus far. Do we still do some stupid things? Yes. But we do things right a lot of the time.

We have a purpose offensively. We move the ball. We feed the high post, we feed the low post. I love that we pass while in the lane, instead of trying to take on 3 defenders and pray for a foul. Our bigs pass out of the low post. Colin will be a monster setting that high pick and roll that Morgan has been setting. Because if they leave him wide open like they do Morgan, it’ll be trouble. If they switch, forget about their PF staying with Green or Durham. Put Davis/Smith on the opposite block and that’s nasty.

I feel like we realllllly try defensively and do a good job...we just don’t do it well ALL the time. Meaning I see what is a good defensive possession for 20 seconds turn in to us losing track of someone and giving up an open look. I understand That’s part of the game. It’s a 30s clock, gotta play all 30. But we are close. 

Ultimately, this team needs to face more opponents. They can clean up dumb turnovers and closing out on shooters in practice. But DeRon knows what he can do against his defender in practice. Green does too. They need to learn to play within the system when there isn’t familiarity in the opponent. These next 3 games will be big. 

[addictedtoIU]

10 minutes ago, cohete15 said:

These next 3 games will be big. 

Yes it'll be big and we gotta figure some things out. After that, the next 5 will be Duke-Michigan-Iowa-Louisville-Notre Dame. My heart already feels heavy.

[Coach1K]

The Butler and Maryland game looked about the same as our game. 

[Hoosierhoopster]

1 hour ago, Jerry Lundergaard said:

No way can you start questioning CAM until he has a full recruiting cycle to get his type of players in. I have wondered to myself several times already this season how much worse things might look if Crean were still the coach. Hard to know. Don't know if some of the drop off in play is due to upperclassmen not fully buying into Archie. Given the lack of focus on defense and ball possession, I can't visualize a scenario where the first three games would have turned out any better had Crean been coaching.

 

- On Morgan, you're ignoring that he shot 85-157, 55%, last year. He absolutely did not shoot well from the arc (25%) -- but I will liken that to Vic. Vic shot I think it was 27% or so as a soph, and then something like 43% as a junior, from the arc. Morgan has shown, in practices and scrimmages, good shooting from the arc. The talk last summer was that he was going to show that in games. He didn't. Doesn't mean he can't shoot, he can. Does mean he hasn't demonstrated it in games, but he can shoot from the outside, hopefully, if he's doing it again this season, he gets it going in games in the same way Vic did his junior year.

_______________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

Shooting in practice or scrimmage is a totally different animal than live game action. When it really matters, kids have to have the cajones and/or confidence to take and make big shots.

 

I really think that a big part of the issues thus far this season is that kids are being asked to take on roles that they may not be comfortable with, or frankly capable of filling.

Was Morgan really recruited to be a shooter? He was a 3 star kid out of high school. Always viewed him as doing a lot of the dirty work that all good teams need someone to do.Rebounding, decent defense, second chance baskets. Maybe Morgan can become capable of being a reliable shooter, but if he was not recruited for that role, and never envisioned himself in it, it may take a good bit of time to develop the confidence or ability or both, to reliably fit that role. In the same vein, there have been a lot of comments on here (myself included) about the lack of leadership on this team. Just because a kid is a junior or senior does not preordain him to be in a leadership capacity. Most often, kids either have that trait or they don't. It might not be within the wherewithal of Rojo, Morgan or Newkirk to be leaders. 

I think this is the crux of the problem thus far....kids are being asked to take on roles they aren't capable of. Not CAM's fault, he has to work with what he has. But it is limiting his options and limiting the team, and until he can get his recruits in the program, I don't see how it would be fair to judge him.

 

 

 

Next season is next season, CAM will have been here a year, and he'll be coaching his own recruits on top of a year's worth of experience at IU. It's certainly fair and debatable to consider at what point in time to decide it's time to judge CAM. A full year later and his own recruits in, is fair to me.

Not to dredge up the Crean debate, but I don't see any basis to speculate that Crean would've lost that opening game like that. I think the reason the team lost that opening game like that was because of the attempt to integrate a completely new system, which I do not put on CAM -- this is not some kind of anti-CAM thought,and I am not anti-CAM at all,  but there's just no basis to say Crean would've lost that same game the same way. That would be an entirely different situation, with the veteran players coming into the game with the same system and the experience from it. 

On Morgan, no, he was not recruited as a shooter, no more than Vic was recruited as a shooter, and what guys do over the summer, in practices and scrimmages absolutely is reflective of what they're capable of. Morgan has an outside shot. Just as Vic did, but needed to develop it into game play, as he did his junior year. I'm not advocating that Morgan become some kind of 3-point sniper, but yes, he can shoot from the outside.

[IowaHoosierFan]

That stretch from Duke to Notre Dame is going to be brutal

[Hoosierhoopster]

2 hours ago, BGleas said:

This. I don’t remember all the details of the Howard game, but Rob’s final line was really deceiving last night. When it mattered most, he wasn’t there and was missed a few wide open shots that IU really needed. I think the announcers even alluded to it. 

I've got no problem with what you seem to be saying now, that he had a bad game -- I still have a problem with the idea that he's missing open shots, when, generally, he isn't. He's not missing a bunch of shots, but its true he did not have a good game. Those aren't the same.

[Hoosierhoopster]

2 minutes ago, IowaHoosierFan said:

That stretch from Duke to Notre Dame is going to be brutal

Yep

[IowaHoosierFan]

Just now, Hoosierhoopster said:

I've got no problem with what you seem to be saying now, that he had a bad game -- I still have a problem with the idea that he's missing open shots, when, generally, he isn't. He's not missing a bunch of shots, but its true he did not have a good game. Those aren't the same.

He really hasn't a good game since about mid-point last season.  He just doesn't seem to have the fire and drive he did as a freshman and sophomore.  It could be that he thrives better when he isn't the main scorer but he doesn't look engaged in the game.

[Hoosierhoopster]

4 hours ago, madmax said:

Disagree wholeheartedly that we need to be doing any sort of examination of CAM's status early next season. Barring a complete and absolute disaster this year and next, we shouldn't even be talking about firing CAM. That is totally ridiculous. That wouldn't even be enough time for CAM to recruit a team of only his own players.

I expect progress over the next two years, but I really think we aren't going to see big time results until year 4 or 5-which is completely reasonable. The culture of a program doesn't change in a year, it is going to take time for Archie to truly implement his style and players.

Wait a minute, I never said we should be thinking about firing CAM. I said that questioning CAM by early next year would be fair game if we're not winning by then. That's absolutely debatable and reasonable minds can differ. I expect progress over THIS year. This isn't a situation where a coach is coming into a team without talent, without good guards, without a post player, without veterans, etc.

This is a complete change in terms of system, and that takes time. I am not in any way questioning CAM right now -- for me, there is no reason to do so, and I've been saying since the summer -- really contrary to many on here -- that this season would probably be rough especially through the mid-way point, because of that complete change in system and style, and because of the departure of 3 double-digit scorers and key players. But for me, a full year and into the early schedule next year is time enough to start judging. 

[Hoosierhoopster]

7 minutes ago, IowaHoosierFan said:

He really hasn't a good game since about mid-point last season.  He just doesn't seem to have the fire and drive he did as a freshman and sophomore.  It could be that he thrives better when he isn't the main scorer but he doesn't look engaged in the game.

He just scored 14 on 5-8 shooting against Howard and otherwise had a good game. Howard is no super team, but I disagree with your perception. The 'fire' point goes to a player's persona. He isn't a fiery player. Watford, for example, OG, for example, etc., are not fiery players, they're more reserved. Rob is like that. Whether he has a strong season is not going to have anything to do with people's perception of his level of passion. Don't confuse a quiet persona for lack of passion. As CAM already commented, Rob's the hardest working player on the team. That's not lack of passion.

[BGleas]

6 minutes ago, Hoosierhoopster said:

I've got no problem with what you seem to be saying now, that he had a bad game -- I still have a problem with the idea that he's missing open shots, when, generally, he isn't. He's not missing a bunch of shots, but its true he did not have a good game. Those aren't the same.

His 3-pt shooting has been streaky at best. Granted it's a small sample size over 3 games but he's shooting 25% this season from 3, and I actually went back to 2/1 last season (yes, cherry picking a bit, but his poor play isn't new this year) and he's shooting 25% from the 3-pt line over his last 15 games. IU needs him to be a reliable 3-pt shooter this season, they just do, then when you couple it with his poor play overall, he just needs to step it up.

As FW-Hoosier said, when you make those shots also matters. He went on a run in garbage time last night, so his numbers looked way better than he really played. 

 

[KoB2011]

24 minutes ago, Hoosierhoopster said:

Wait a minute, I never said we should be thinking about firing CAM. I said that questioning CAM by early next year would be fair game if we're not winning by then. That's absolutely debatable and reasonable minds can differ. I expect progress over THIS year. This isn't a situation where a coach is coming into a team without talent, without good guards, without a post player, without veterans, etc.

This is a complete change in terms of system, and that takes time. I am not in any way questioning CAM right now -- for me, there is no reason to do so, and I've been saying since the summer -- really contrary to many on here -- that this season would probably be rough especially through the mid-way point, because of that complete change in system and style, and because of the departure of 3 double-digit scorers and key players. But for me, a full year and into the early schedule next year is time enough to start judging. 

I was one of the earliest Archie fans in the board and I wholeheartedly agree. Heck, I'll go further and say it's fair to start evaluating and even questioning now. That's not at all the same as saying fire him, but any intelligent person should constantly reevaluate and assess their positions on things when we get new information. 

[ephul]

1 hour ago, KoB2011 said:

I was one of the earliest Archie fans in the board and I wholeheartedly agree. Heck, I'll go further and say it's fair to start evaluating and even questioning now. That's not at all the same as saying fire him, but any intelligent person should constantly reevaluate and assess their positions on things when we get new information. 

No, it's not fair.

[IowaHoosierFan]

2 hours ago, Hoosierhoopster said:

He just scored 14 on 5-8 shooting against Howard and otherwise had a good game. Howard is no super team, but I disagree with your perception. The 'fire' point goes to a player's persona. He isn't a fiery player. Watford, for example, OG, for example, etc., are not fiery players, they're more reserved. Rob is like that. Whether he has a strong season is not going to have anything to do with people's perception of his level of passion. Don't confuse a quiet persona for lack of passion. As CAM already commented, Rob's the hardest working player on the team. That's not lack of passion.

A senior shooting guard who is supposed to be the leader and best scorer we have on the team is averaging 11 a game against 170 ranked Indiana State and 340 ranked Howard.  I expected more from him this year.  As the 2 guard i expect him to have more impact on the game.  Not have 8 TOs and and average 11 points at this time.  Maybe i am too hard on him, maybe i am expecting to much from him, but that is my opinion and if it doesn't fit what you think, well then we will just have to disagree.  You can be a stone cold scorer and not ever break a smile.  But his play is not living up to his expectations and i go back to one of the last game last year when he completely gave up on a break away steal and let the guy run right by him.  

Again, just my personal opinion of him.  Only he will be able to change my mind with his play.  But i honestly would rather he was benched and let the younger guys learn and play.

[addictedtoIU]

14 minutes ago, IowaHoosierFan said:

A senior shooting guard who is supposed to be the leader and best scorer we have on the team is averaging 11 a game against 170 ranked Indiana State and 340 ranked Howard.  I expected more from him this year.  As the 2 guard i expect him to have more impact on the game.  Not have 8 TOs and and average 11 points at this time.  Maybe i am too hard on him, maybe i am expecting to much from him, but that is my opinion and if it doesn't fit what you think, well then we will just have to disagree.  You can be a stone cold scorer and not ever break a smile.  But his play is not living up to his expectations and i go back to one of the last game last year when he completely gave up on a break away steal and let the guy run right by him.  

Again, just my personal opinion of him.  Only he will be able to change my mind with his play.  But i honestly would rather he was benched and let the younger guys learn and play.

It remains to be seen, but maybe he doesn't want to lead the team and simply fans are expecting too much from him. He's just not the person we want him to be. If so, it must be hard for him for all the expectation and pressure. Eventually, young guys need to grow up fast, and CAM should make a decision sooner or later if Rob should come off the bench.

[Indykev]

4 hours ago, Hoosierhoopster said:

Wait a minute, I never said we should be thinking about firing CAM. I said that questioning CAM by early next year would be fair game if we're not winning by then. That's absolutely debatable and reasonable minds can differ. I expect progress over THIS year. This isn't a situation where a coach is coming into a team without talent, without good guards, without a post player, without veterans, etc.

This is a complete change in terms of system, and that takes time. I am not in any way questioning CAM right now -- for me, there is no reason to do so, and I've been saying since the summer -- really contrary to many on here -- that this season would probably be rough especially through the mid-way point, because of that complete change in system and style, and because of the departure of 3 double-digit scorers and key players. But for me, a full year and into the early schedule next year is time enough to start judging. 

You do remember this team won 18 games last year and lost its best players right? . Your Love affair with Johnson is blinding.There is young talent on this team. You may be correct on your timeline for next season, Because Johnson and Newkirk won't be on the floor any longer and Hartman and Priller won't be taking up schollys not being used on the floor.

[Leathernecks]

5 hours ago, KoB2011 said:

I was one of the earliest Archie fans in the board and I wholeheartedly agree. Heck, I'll go further and say it's fair to start evaluating and even questioning now. That's not at all the same as saying fire him, but any intelligent person should constantly reevaluate and assess their positions on things when we get new information. 

Exactly.  There is a major difference between questioning and wanting someone fired.

Personally, I'm not real excited about the first 3 games of Archie's career.  We're all hoping to get back to being a top 5 program again.  If we want to do that, we'll need a top 5-10 coach.  If we would have hired Coach K, Izzo, Self, Donovan, Williams, Wright, or God forbid Calipari, we would have all been disappointed with these first 3 games.  Those are the coaches we are expecting Archie to eventually become, so I am holding him to very high standards.

However, in no way does that mean that I want Archie fired, or that I don't think he has a chance of turning into a top coach.  All it means is that I haven't been that excited after 3 games.  I still expect us to be playing much better as the season moves on.

[KoB2011]

4 hours ago, ephul said:

No, it's not fair.

To each their own.  Personally, I constantly evaluate and question my opinion on things as I consume new information about said thing and Archie is not exempt from that.  

[ephul]

43 minutes ago, KoB2011 said:

To each their own.  Personally, I constantly evaluate and question my opinion on things as I consume new information about said thing and Archie is not exempt from that.  

Here's why I think it's, quite frankly, ridiculous, to "question" Archie's coaching thus far.

- Johnson checked out towards the end of last year. Not a great leadership quality. Johnson isn't a leader, and that's fine. Not everyone is.

- Newkirk is Newkirk. Should never be starting for a team that wishes to be a top B10 team. Has never been a great shooter, and not a great PG. His assist/turnover ratio is pretty poor.

- Juwan Morgan has never been a shooter. Solid rebounder is about it.

These are your three upper classmen, not counting Hartman. Not one leader in the bunch. What you have is kids that have Creanball instilled in them. Run and Gun, don't worry about defense.

When Archie came here, we wanted him to bring a style of play that relates to us Hoosier fans. Taking care of the ball, playing tough, playing defense. I didn't expect Archie to bend his philosophies to fit this team. The players adapt to HIS style, or it simply won't work out for them.

Reality is, this team just doesn't have enough talent. Plain and simple. We don't have scorers/shooters, we've got upperclassmen that don't want leadership and have played virtually no defense their entire life. We'd all love for Johnson to become a better player than he was last year. Unfortunately, he fell in a funk last year and simply hasn't come out of it. We'd all love for him to become a leader... Unfortunately for Archie, you can't simply anoint someone leader. Doesn't work that way.

The positives? Hartman hasn't played a game.... I'd love to see him take this team over. Another positive? The underclassmen have been the best players on the team. The guys that haven't had Crean's system instilled in them. While they haven't been perfect, they've been better than the upperclassmen.

We'd all love for Archie to flip some switch, waive his magic wand, and make this team better. Unfortunately, he doesn't have much to work with, when you really step back and look at it. Do I think this team should be better? Absolutely. But that's not on Archie. That's on the players. Players gotta play.

[KoB2011]

29 minutes ago, ephul said:

Here's why I think it's, quite frankly, ridiculous, to "question" Archie's coaching thus far.

- Johnson checked out towards the end of last year. Not a great leadership quality. Johnson isn't a leader, and that's fine. Not everyone is.

- Newkirk is Newkirk. Should never be starting for a team that wishes to be a top B10 team. Has never been a great shooter, and not a great PG. His assist/turnover ratio is pretty poor.

- Juwan Morgan has never been a shooter. Solid rebounder is about it.

These are your three upper classmen, not counting Hartman. Not one leader in the bunch. What you have is kids that have Creanball instilled in them. Run and Gun, don't worry about defense.

When Archie came here, we wanted him to bring a style of play that relates to us Hoosier fans. Taking care of the ball, playing tough, playing defense. I didn't expect Archie to bend his philosophies to fit this team. The players adapt to HIS style, or it simply won't work out for them.

Reality is, this team just doesn't have enough talent. Plain and simple. We don't have scorers/shooters, we've got upperclassmen that don't want leadership and have played virtually no defense their entire life. We'd all love for Johnson to become a better player than he was last year. Unfortunately, he fell in a funk last year and simply hasn't come out of it. We'd all love for him to become a leader... Unfortunately for Archie, you can't simply anoint someone leader. Doesn't work that way.

The positives? Hartman hasn't played a game.... I'd love to see him take this team over. Another positive? The underclassmen have been the best players on the team. The guys that haven't had Crean's system instilled in them. While they haven't been perfect, they've been better than the upperclassmen.

We'd all love for Archie to flip some switch, waive his magic wand, and make this team better. Unfortunately, he doesn't have much to work with, when you really step back and look at it. Do I think this team should be better? Absolutely. But that's not on Archie. That's on the players. Players gotta play.

I agree with all of this, I'm also not sure what it has to do with questioning and evaluating Archie? Why is questioning and evaluating a bad thing?

I've seen nothing this season that makes me doubt Archie is the right man for the job, but I'm also not going to turn my brain off and stop questioning and evaluating things because there are some less than ideal circumstances.