Arkansas post game

[5 championships]

5 hours ago, IUFLA said:

How is Beard's resume any better than Archie's? He went to the championship game with a P5 school vs an Elite 8 with an A10 school? That he's taken a preseason 13th ranked team and has them, after falling out of the polls, 23rd?

Do some of you really think that in a time out huddle Archie says, "I know! Devonte, make a headlong drive to the bucket, then dribble back outside, don't forget to go behind your back and between your legs a couple of times, and heave up a 30 footer!" ?

In the first half, and the first 10 minutes of the second, we executed our game plan, and had a double digit lead. When the tough part of the game came, our floor leaders didn't lead, and made mistakes that cost us the game. That's not on Archie. 

Three things that aren't really up for argument...

1. We were bitten big time by the injury bug last year. Even with a 12 game losing streak we were pretty much one victory against Ohio State from going to the tournament. 

2. The players Archie has right now, particularly in the backcourt, he would never have recruited. As Scott put it, Archie likes basketball players. Consistent players who run the offense and defense the right way, and who make the basketball play over the flashy play.

3. Archie can coach...unless you want to debate no less an authority than RMK on it.

I want a winner at IU as badly as anyone on this board, but I would never advocate having a winner at the expense of the integrity of the program. Archie deserves more of a chance than some of the knee-jerk reactionist on this board are willing to give him. 

I look forward to the day I'll be able to say, "I told you so". 

And it will come...

 

Another good one! Thank you! 

[Fiveoutofsix]

Just now, Billingsley99 said:

To be 100 percent honest I don't care if a shooter can stay with their own shadow if he can shoot.  No one ever confused Alford Roth or Leary as great defenders. I am so sick and tired of hearing we dont recruit kids that dont play hard on defensive end.  For 3 years I have not seen many on our team that do. 

You need both that is how Texas Tech, Houston, Virginia, etc has won. Michigan for years would out shoot their opponent and then got a sold defense the last two years.  Wisconsin another example.  KNIGHTS good teams, etc.  

Can't we have both?  Ha

[IUskim]

10 minutes ago, Billingsley99 said:

The same Al Durham that hit all those clutch shots at end of the game yesterday?

At Least he did connect on one thing yesterday 

Zing....

[BADGERVOL]

13 hours ago, BobSaccamanno said:

You have zero to back that up.  Another unsupported statement.  But you can get somebody accomplished for $8 -$9 million      To think otherwise is naive.  

Good coaches are not going to be intimidated by IU fans.  If you’re good and “get it” you know it.  We remain a sleeping giant that is underachieving as a program.  

This x1000...the word on the street was that’s archie’s brother said don’t leave Dayton unless you can go to a school you can win it all at. He chose IU when IU called and didn’t hesitate and that was withOUT a big purse. 

Now I do agree timing is everything so if no big name coach is available money might not talk. I get that.

but furthermore, too coaches are NEVER going to look at any top flight program with a great recruiting base and say “yea but their fans are meanies.” That just doesn’t happen. These guys all have egos the size of a semi. They WILL believe they can be the hero and imagine the coach that rights the ship called Indiana Basketball. They won’t just be big in the state guys. They will be THE headline of sports writers all over. They will do shows and clips talking about the path IU took to get back. Interviews, highlights, etc. they will fawn all over the story because it’ll be big.

and if you WIN those fans will be your greatest TOOL.

[Billingsley99]

20 minutes ago, Fiveoutofsix said:

You need both that is how Texas Tech, Houston, Virginia, etc has won. Michigan for years would out shoot their opponent and then got a sold defense the last two years.  Wisconsin another example.  KNIGHTS good teams, etc.  

Can't we have both?  Ha

You can afford to have one guy especially in the pack line that struggles. Teams are not going to shoot much better against us than they already do. At least he could be an offensive threat and keep defense honest.  We just got beat by a team of 6'5 players. Let that sink in

[ATX_sig]

What is worse?  The perimeter defense or the perimeter offense?

I think this was brought up last year with Romeo and the offense not making life easier for him.  It was more like here's the ball go do your thing.  I don't think the offense has been built to run plays to get open 3's.  Seems like they are rushing to get open looks by just passing it around when the opponent packs it in to take away the inside game.  IU may not have the purest of 3 point shooters but I think they can knock them down.  Archie could do a better job of creating some offensive plays to get them better looks in the flow of the offense. Maybe he has and it is the players but the offense really struggles to get off good perimeter shots. 

Why does our defense always lose the best shooter when he is off the ball?  

[5 championships]

2 hours ago, Hoosierinbham said:

This is where Rob's injuries have really affected our success.  It's obvious he still isn't 100 percent, and his conditioning doesn't allow him to play extended minutes.  Just look at how short he was on both technical foul attempts as an example of no legs.

We played most of the game yesterday with two guards.  One a freshman who has exceeded my expectations this year, but is still a freshman.  The other is Devonte.   Unfortunately we got 80/20 bad to good Devonte yesterday.  He just seems to play so much better off the ball.  Having Al or Rob handle the ball would've been a game changer.

Agree with most the guard situation now and going forward is concerning.  Hope Rob can get healthy, and Archie adds a grad transfer or reclassify to the class in the spring.

Another person that gets it! Thank you. 

[IUfan93]

I didn’t follow Archie at Dayton. Did he have a more balanced type of offense there?  Did he recruit shooters?  Seems like I’ve read here before that he really doesn’t but I could delusional  because a lot gets thrown out to read here...

 

[5 championships]

2 hours ago, Hoosierhoopster said:

More of the overly dramatic. Funny we just beat ND but whatever. 

This is year 3 under CAM. It's still a work in progress. Whether we become elite again is not going to be determined this year. 

Not quoting you to to point to you in particular, I just don't get the jump off the cliff reactions every time we lose. Lighten up Francis.

Thanks Hoosierhoopster everyone should read this! 

[5fouls]

There is some SERIOUS overreaction going on here.  I can guarantee that Archie is more aware of the deficiencies of this team than anyone on here.  With the expectation of a healthy Rob, there was zero need for a STARTING point guard.  It would have been very difficult for Archie to convince a starter quality PG to come and sit behind Rob for 3 years.  And, before anyone wants to dispute that, 99% of the people on this board said, or agreed with those that said, we had our PG for the next 4 years last year before Rob got his concussion.

As far as shooters, I keep seeing the names Zeisloft and Roth.  I loved both of those guys.  But, someone want to look up for me and tell me the COMBINED number of times those guys scored double figures in a game.  Zeisloft had 7 double figure games in his two years at IU (and 5 scoreless ones).  I could not find Roth's game log, but would be surprised if he had more than that in his entire 4 year career.  

Yogi shot 30% from 3 point range his freshman year and raised that to 42% by his senior year.  That's the type of stat we should be measuring Archie on.  And, I happen to think we can see that same type of growth from Armaan Franklin.  The kid is a solid ball player, and the type of player that will help you win conference titles when he's a junior and senior.  If Archie can keep landing kids like Romeo and TJD to go along with the guys like Armaan, we will be perfectly fine.

[IUFLA]

6 minutes ago, BADGERVOL said:

and if you WIN those fans will be your greatest TOOL.

We do have some tools in our fanbase...

[BADGERVOL]

Just now, IUFLA said:

We do have some tools in our fanbase...

EVERY team does

[CTrojan88]

21 minutes ago, HoosierDom said:

Al Durham. 

You really can’t mean this.  If you do then you really don’t watch the games.  He may look great against the cupcakes but against mid to high level competition, he does more harm than good.  Out of position on defense, never boxes out, over dribbles on offense, stands around when he doesn’t have the ball and makes 3-4 dumb mistakes every game...he may have improved his shot a bit but that would be it.

[5 championships]

2 hours ago, Hoosierhoopster said:

You lost me at Long Duk Dong is not crazy. 😁

Being a little more serious, Stevens is absolute fantasy land. He is of course doing very well with the C's, and the reasons he left college ball haven't changed. Donovan? I can't say I know, but while he's now going through a rebuilding year after PG and Westbrook's departures, he's a highly paid, successful NBA coach who doesn't have to play the NCAA recruiting game, etc., and it's not like he's on the hot seat in OKC. I see no realistic possibility of his leaving the NBA to coach IU.

But my real take here is that this is year 3 with a still young coach in CAM, who led Dayton to 4 consecutive NCAA appearances, and who, in fairness and removing the frustration of losing a game we shouldn't have lost in the second half, CLEARLY can coach, and who has already brought in several highly ranked and very, very good players. 

Like it or not, CAM is still getting his full team / recruiting in place. It's fair to say we just succeed this season -- and we still might be a tourney team, that was one (1) bad loss -- but it may not be until next year, that's just how it is, and everyone calling out for a new coaching search after one bad loss is just fandom run crazy. That is, it's IU fandom at its usual best.

And people wonder why Christian main concern about his brother attending IU were the fans. 

We call ourselves one of the most knowledgeable fan bases expect most love to give knee jerk reactions without looking at the full picture before commenting. We hurt ourselves as much as we help ourselves and I’m sick n tired of it!! 

[Zlinedavid]

But....but.....we shouldnt have to wait because...instant gratification. We have to win yesterday. How else can I talk smack on social media if we don't?

[Fiveoutofsix]

1 minute ago, 5fouls said:

There is some SERIOUS overreaction going on here.  I can guarantee that Archie is more aware of the deficiencies of this team than anyone on here.  With the expectation of a healthy Rob, there was zero need for a STARTING point guard.  It would have been very difficult for Archie to convince a starter quality PG to come and sit behind Rob for 3 years.  And, before anyone wants to dispute that, 99% of the people on this board said, or agreed with those that said, we had our PG for the next 4 years last year before Rob got his concussion.

As far as shooters, I keep seeing the names Zeisloft and Roth.  I loved both of those guys.  But, someone want to look up for me and tell me the COMBINED number of times those guys scored double figures in a game.  Zeisloft had 7 double figure games in his two years at IU (and 5 scoreless ones).  I could not find Roth's game log, but would be surprised if he had more than that in his entire 4 year career.  

Yogi shot 30% from 3 point range his freshman year and raised that to 42% by his senior year.  That's the type of stat we should be measuring Archie on.  And, I happen to think we can see that same type of growth from Armaan Franklin.  The kid is a solid ball player, and the type of player that will help you win conference titles when he's a junior and senior.  If Archie can keep landing kids like Romeo and TJD to go along with the guys like Armaan, we will be perfectly fine.

A lot of truth to what you are saying.  Just was to add...its not about points you put up, it is about stretching the D and not making it 5 on 3 or even 5 on 1 (slight exaggeration)  you need the stretch guy that makes the other team think and have to defend.

I'm a big Rob P fan and think he still has what it takes to be solid.  However, Archie and staff have gone after a point guard in addition to Rob the past two years and there is a reason for that.  They know Rob is steady and he is has intangibles to be good; however, is he Caleb Love good?  DJ Carton good?  Etc?

[IUFLA]

6 minutes ago, 5fouls said:

There is some SERIOUS overreaction going on here.  I can guarantee that Archie is more aware of the deficiencies of this team than anyone on here.  With the expectation of a healthy Rob, there was zero need for a STARTING point guard.  It would have been very difficult for Archie to convince a starter quality PG to come and sit behind Rob for 3 years.  And, before anyone wants to dispute that, 99% of the people on this board said, or agreed with those that said, we had our PG for the next 4 years last year before Rob got his concussion.

As far as shooters, I keep seeing the names Zeisloft and Roth.  I loved both of those guys.  But, someone want to look up for me and tell me the COMBINED number of times those guys scored double figures in a game.  Zeisloft had 7 double figure games in his two years at IU (and 5 scoreless ones).  I could not find Roth's game log, but would be surprised if he had more than that in his entire 4 year career.  

Yogi shot 30% from 3 point range his freshman year and raised that to 42% by his senior year.  That's the type of stat we should be measuring Archie on.  And, I happen to think we can see that same type of growth from Armaan Franklin.  The kid is a solid ball player, and the type of player that will help you win conference titles when he's a junior and senior.  If Archie can keep landing kids like Romeo and TJD to go along with the guys like Armaan, we will be perfectly fine.

Roth had 6 games in which he scored double digits, and 23 games where he took the donut...

Link

[5 championships]

2 hours ago, IUFLA said:

How is it on him? He has 4 scholarship guards. One of them got tossed for a stupid move. One has participated in 1/5th of our practices this year. One is a freshman and is, as freshmen tend to be, inconsistent. Who was he supposed to play? Walk-ons? 

Green played a lot of minutes through neccessity. If Archie had other options, he would have used them.

Another good one

[IUFLA]

10 minutes ago, Zlinedavid said:

But....but.....we shouldnt have to wait because...instant gratification. We have to win yesterday. How else can I talk smack on social media if we don't?

And there lies the rub...

[IUFLA]

15 minutes ago, CTrojan88 said:

You really can’t mean this.  If you do then you really don’t watch the games.  He may look great against the cupcakes but against mid to high level competition, he does more harm than good.  Out of position on defense, never boxes out, over dribbles on offense, stands around when he doesn’t have the ball and makes 3-4 dumb mistakes every game...he may have improved his shot a bit but that would be it.

In the context of the original question, I'm sure he does mean it, and he would be correct...

Al is a much better player than he was when he got to IU. Statistics bear that out...

Now, has he blossomed into a star? No (and as I've said before, he's a backup player at best)...but he has "markedly improved."

[5 championships]

1 hour ago, Hoosierhoopster said:

I don't see it that way, at all. 

Do you honestly think CAM isn't a better game coach that Crean? Really? 

Or do you think, in season 3, we know that CAM won't build depth, in the way that Crean failed to build class depth? Really?

I think the answers to both of those questions is pretty decidedly, no.

People get upset, justifiably, after this kind of a bad loss. But the sweeping pronouncements are way, way over the top.

Ya it’s pretty ridiculous but I come to expect that from IU fans today. Still sad. And they wonder why we get bad mouthed as being crazy unrealistic fan base... SMH

[BobSaccamanno]

There is over-reaction, and I admittedly put myself at the top of the list.  We are all in the IU "family" and occasionally we can go off the rails like happens within all families.  I don't react well to some losses.

Having said that, and we are all friends here, I wouldn't go overboard defending the coaches right now.  This isn't a one-game thing.  We also have data from last year and other issues.

In the end, Archie was up something like 11 with 7 minutes to go.  The first or second idiotic play after that, it's his job to get the players' attention.  Remind them in a not so subtle way what the situation is and what we are trying to do.

Did Archie tell Green to launch a wild three early in the shot clock or try an ill-advised bounce pass in heavy traffic when the recipient had a considerable height advantage?  No, but it is his job to school his team on how to play smart ball.  This type of thing needs to be ingrained.

If you use Coach Knight as a reference point, he'd have Chuck Franz or Luke Jiminez or some walkon out there over the more ballyhooed talent because those guys would make the right plays.  They wouldn't wow you, but do the right thing.  It might befuddle fans but you'd walk away with a W.  The method made perfectly clear what smart basketball was supposed to be and what was acceptable. 

I like Archie in terms of attitude and what he's trying to do.  I am on board with his goals in terms of scheme and approach.  There have been things I have liked.  But, for two years now, we are seeing his players not execute what Archie wants.  He can't throw his hands up and say "I didn't tell him to throw it away."  He needs to demand proper execution or you don't play.  

The reason for the uproar is that the game last night was on the coaching staff.  A light was shining brightly on the poor way the game was handled.  I am not trying to ruffle anybody's feathers.  As I hope, we are all friends here.  But its not like I am taking personal potshots.  I am staying on specific issues.

[5 championships]

26 minutes ago, 5fouls said:

There is some SERIOUS overreaction going on here.  I can guarantee that Archie is more aware of the deficiencies of this team than anyone on here.  With the expectation of a healthy Rob, there was zero need for a STARTING point guard.  It would have been very difficult for Archie to convince a starter quality PG to come and sit behind Rob for 3 years.  And, before anyone wants to dispute that, 99% of the people on this board said, or agreed with those that said, we had our PG for the next 4 years last year before Rob got his concussion.

As far as shooters, I keep seeing the names Zeisloft and Roth.  I loved both of those guys.  But, someone want to look up for me and tell me the COMBINED number of times those guys scored double figures in a game.  Zeisloft had 7 double figure games in his two years at IU (and 5 scoreless ones).  I could not find Roth's game log, but would be surprised if he had more than that in his entire 4 year career.  

Yogi shot 30% from 3 point range his freshman year and raised that to 42% by his senior year.  That's the type of stat we should be measuring Archie on.  And, I happen to think we can see that same type of growth from Armaan Franklin.  The kid is a solid ball player, and the type of player that will help you win conference titles when he's a junior and senior.  If Archie can keep landing kids like Romeo and TJD to go along with the guys like Armaan, we will be perfectly fine.

Wow that post is a breath of fresh air. Only if everyone was that reasonable and actually looked into things instead of lashing out cuz IU lost a ball gAme and they are upset.. I gotta look at our fans and go... Yikes. We sure do have a lot of clueless ones. 

[5 championships]

26 minutes ago, Zlinedavid said:

But....but.....we shouldnt have to wait because...instant gratification. We have to win yesterday. How else can I talk smack on social media if we don't?

Bahahaha  good post!

[HoosierDom]

4 minutes ago, BobSaccamanno said:

There is over-reaction, and I admittedly put myself at the top of the list.  We are all in the IU "family" and occasionally we can go off the rails like happens within all families.  I don't react well to some losses.

Having said that, and we are all friends here, I wouldn't go overboard defending the coaches right now.  This isn't a one-game thing.  We also have data from last year and other issues.

In the end, Archie was up something like 11 with 7 minutes to go.  The first or second idiotic play after that, it's his job to get the players' attention.  Remind them in a not so subtle way what the situation is and what we are trying to do.

Did Archie tell Green to launch a wild three early in the shot clock or try an ill-advised bounce pass in heavy traffic when the recipient had a considerable height advantage?  No, but it is his job to school his team on how to play smart ball.  This type of thing needs to be ingrained.

If you use Coach Knight as a reference point, he'd have Chuck Franz or Luke Jiminez or some walkon out there over the more ballyhooed talent because those guys would make the right plays.  They wouldn't wow you, but do the right thing.  It might befuddle fans but you'd walk away with a W.  The method made perfectly clear what smart basketball was supposed to be and what was acceptable. 

I like Archie in terms of attitude and what he's trying to do.  I am on board with his goals in terms of scheme and approach.  There have been things I have liked.  But, for two years now, we are seeing his players not execute what Archie wants.  He can't throw his hands up and say "I didn't tell him to throw it away."  He needs to demand proper execution or you don't play.  

The reason for the uproar is that the game last night was on the coaching staff.  A light was shining brightly on the poor way the game was handled.  I am not trying to ruffle anybody's feathers.  As I hope, we are all friends here.  But its not like I am taking personal potshots.  I am staying on specific issues.

You tell me, how many free throws did the coaching staff miss? How many open 3s did they misfire on? 

If we shoot our normal, respectable free throw percentage, we win. If we shoot our normal, just south of mediocre 3 pt percentage, we win. But, we did neither of those things. I wish we could miss shots and still beat tournament teams, it's not impossible to do that, but we're not there. We have to have an okay, by our low standards, shooting day to beat tournament teams.