Arkansas post game

[IUskim]

9 minutes ago, BobSaccamanno said:

There is over-reaction, and I admittedly put myself at the top of the list.  We are all in the IU "family" and occasionally we can go off the rails like happens within all families.  I don't react well to some losses.

Having said that, and we are all friends here, I wouldn't go overboard defending the coaches right now.  This isn't a one-game thing.  We also have data from last year and other issues.

In the end, Archie was up something like 11 with 7 minutes to go.  The first or second idiotic play after that, it's his job to get the players' attention.  Remind them in a not so subtle way what the situation is and what we are trying to do.

Did Archie tell Green to launch a wild three early in the shot clock or try an ill-advised bounce pass in heavy traffic when the recipient had a considerable height advantage?  No, but it is his job to school his team on how to play smart ball.  This type of thing needs to be ingrained.

If you use Coach Knight as a reference point, he'd have Chuck Franz or Luke Jiminez or some walkon out there over the more ballyhooed talent because those guys would make the right plays.  They wouldn't wow you, but do the right thing.  It might befuddle fans but you'd walk away with a W.  The method made perfectly clear what smart basketball was supposed to be and what was acceptable. 

I like Archie in terms of attitude and what he's trying to do.  I am on board with his goals in terms of scheme and approach.  There have been things I have liked.  But, for two years now, we are seeing his players not execute what Archie wants.  He can't throw his hands up and say "I didn't tell him to throw it away."  He needs to demand proper execution or you don't play.  

The reason for the uproar is that the game last night was on the coaching staff.  A light was shining brightly on the poor way the game was handled.  I am not trying to ruffle anybody's feathers.  As I hope, we are all friends here.  But its not like I am taking personal potshots.  I am staying on specific issues.

Great post. I just want to pose a question not to single you out or anything. At this point is Green what he is, but something we have to live with until he graduates? He is a shooter and shooters shoot. His play is so up and down it’s maddening. It just seems like besides TJD Green is the only one who can get his own buckets?

[IUFLA]

12 minutes ago, BobSaccamanno said:

There is over-reaction, and I admittedly put myself at the top of the list.  We are all in the IU "family" and occasionally we can go off the rails like happens within all families.  I don't react well to some losses.

Having said that, and we are all friends here, I wouldn't go overboard defending the coaches right now.  This isn't a one-game thing.  We also have data from last year and other issues.

In the end, Archie was up something like 11 with 7 minutes to go.  The first or second idiotic play after that, it's his job to get the players' attention.  Remind them in a not so subtle way what the situation is and what we are trying to do.

Did Archie tell Green to launch a wild three early in the shot clock or try an ill-advised bounce pass in heavy traffic when the recipient had a considerable height advantage?  No, but it is his job to school his team on how to play smart ball.  This type of thing needs to be ingrained.

If you use Coach Knight as a reference point, he'd have Chuck Franz or Luke Jiminez or some walkon out there over the more ballyhooed talent because those guys would make the right plays.  They wouldn't wow you, but do the right thing.  It might befuddle fans but you'd walk away with a W.  The method made perfectly clear what smart basketball was supposed to be and what was acceptable. 

I like Archie in terms of attitude and what he's trying to do.  I am on board with his goals in terms of scheme and approach.  There have been things I have liked.  But, for two years now, we are seeing his players not execute what Archie wants.  He can't throw his hands up and say "I didn't tell him to throw it away."  He needs to demand proper execution or you don't play.  

The reason for the uproar is that the game last night was on the coaching staff.  A light was shining brightly on the poor way the game was handled.  I am not trying to ruffle anybody's feathers.  As I hope, we are all friends here.  But its not like I am taking personal potshots.  I am staying on specific issues.

Just a simple question...we were in this game until there was about 1:30 left...when would we have put the walk-ons in?

[Zlinedavid]

1 minute ago, IUskim said:

Great post. I just want to pose a question not to single you out or anything. At this point is Green what he is, but something we have to live with until he graduates? He is a shooter and shooters shoot. His play is so up and down it’s maddening. It just seems like besides TJD Green is the only one who can get his own buckets?

In my opinion, yes and yes

Edit: If he's at 100%, Rob can also get his own shot, but whether he's at 100% or not is debatable.

[Indy1987]

19 minutes ago, Zlinedavid said:

But....but.....we shouldnt have to wait because...instant gratification. We have to win yesterday. How else can I talk smack on social media if we don't?

Instant gratification would have been making the tournament year one.   Missing it in year 3 would hardly be wanting instant success.  I think most of us just want to see improvement on the court.  And not just in the form of wins.  We've had 3 seasons of poor outside shooting, poor FT shooting,  poor defense against the 3 and an offense that nobody understands.  Just show us something to give us hope for the future.

 Oh and If you all think the fans here are losing faith you better not venture to facebook or any other sites anytime soon.  

I'm not calling for Archie's head.  Even if we miss the dance again.  Next year his seat will be very hot though.  

Go Hoosiers!!!

[BobSaccamanno]

1 minute ago, IUFLA said:

Just a simple question...we were in this game until there was about 1:30 left...when would we have put the walk-ons in?

Simple question for you.  Explain why Archie did a great job coaching the final seven minutes.  

[Zlinedavid]

2 minutes ago, Indy1987 said:

 Oh and If you all think the fans here are losing faith you better not venture to facebook or any other sites anytime soon. 

Closed the only Facebook account I ever had in 2005 (2005, not 2015). Not active on Instagram, Twitter, Snapchat, TikTok or whatever the latest social media network is. Cesspools.

[IUskim]

5 minutes ago, Zlinedavid said:

In my opinion, yes and yes

Edit: If he's at 100%, Rob can also get his own shot, but whether he's at 100% or not is debatable.

I listened to Coyle and Leary and they were saying he just seems off, and they aren’t sure what it is. They didn’t even seem like it was injury related he just has no confidence this year. 

[CTrojan88]

30 minutes ago, IUFLA said:

In the context of the original question, I'm sure he does mean it, and he would be correct...

Al is a much better player than he was when he got to IU. Statistics bear that out...

Now, has he blossomed into a star? No (and as I've said before, he's a backup player at best)...but he has "markedly improved."

Agree to disagree....

[BobSaccamanno]

10 minutes ago, IUskim said:

Great post. I just want to pose a question not to single you out or anything. At this point is Green what he is, but something we have to live with until he graduates? He is a shooter and shooters shoot. His play is so up and down it’s maddening. It just seems like besides TJD Green is the only one who can get his own buckets?

Green can do alot of good things.  But if he goes into insanity mode, I pull him, period.  That's the best way to get the message across.  Green has aspirations beyond this year.  He will suck it up and get with it if he learns the hard way.

[IUFLA]

10 minutes ago, BobSaccamanno said:

Simple question for you.  Explain why Archie did a great job coaching the final seven minutes.  

I think that's called "cherry picking."

The game plan, pounding it inside, was solid. It got us a double digits lead. It got us to the line. We dominated them on the boards...That was a game plan Archie and his staff drew up..

In the last 7 minutes, we (meaning the players) made poor decisions... especially our backcourt. Green was the major offender, but Rob and Armaan both had issues as well...who else could Archie turn to? 

You said bring in a walk-on...when? With 7 minutes to go in a tight game? 1:30? When do you teach that lesson?

Man, I could have heard the howling clean down here in Texas if Archie had done that.

 

[BobSaccamanno]

13 minutes ago, HoosierDom said:

You tell me, how many free throws did the coaching staff miss? How many open 3s did they misfire on? 

If we shoot our normal, respectable free throw percentage, we win. If we shoot our normal, just south of mediocre 3 pt percentage, we win. But, we did neither of those things. I wish we could miss shots and still beat tournament teams, it's not impossible to do that, but we're not there. We have to have an okay, by our low standards, shooting day to beat tournament teams. 

None of those points change the fact that the game was mishandled.  Of course, if you come down and hit every shot you will win every game.  That is not the point.

The team was in position to win the game and blew it through self-destructive play that goes directly to coaching.

[IUskim]

1 minute ago, BobSaccamanno said:

Green can do alot of good things.  But if he goes into insanity mode, I pull him, period.  That's the best way to get the message across.  Green has aspirations beyond this year.  He will suck it up and get with it if he learns the hard way.

That’s fair. Maybe that cooper bybee should get some run. He’s supposed to be a good shooter isn’t he?

[Zlinedavid]

5 minutes ago, IUskim said:

That’s fair. Maybe that cooper bybee should get some run. He’s supposed to be a good shooter isn’t he?

Arkansas' guards would have eaten him alive on the other end. Not that anyone else was doing a Kawhi impression, but Bybee is at least a step or two slower than anyone else that was on the floor yesterday. He's not the answer.

[IU878176]

7 minutes ago, IUFLA said:

I think that's called "cherry picking."

The game plan, pounding it inside, was solid. It got us a double digits lead. It got us to the line. We dominated them on the boards...That was a game plan Archie and his staff drew up..

In the last 7 minutes, we (meaning the players) made poor decisions... especially our backcourt. Green was the major offender, but Rob and Armaan both had issues as well...who else could Archie turn to? 

You said bring in a walk-on...when? With 7 minutes to go in a tight game? 1:30? When do you teach that lesson?

Man, I could have heard the howling clean down here in Texas if Archie had done that.

 

It’s also “cherry picking” to say that when things went well it was because of Archie and the staff but it was on the players when it went bad.  TJD did not have a shot in the last 9 minutes. Think about that. Is that partly on the players? Yes it is but I think Archie was also allowed to call a time out and draw up a play(s)/make adjustments to help remedy the situation. 

[IUFLA]

9 minutes ago, BobSaccamanno said:

None of those points change the fact that the game was mishandled.

Fact? I'd say it was an opinion that the game was mishandled...

[AxnJxn]

19 minutes ago, Indy1987 said:

Instant gratification would have been making the tournament year one.   Missing it in year 3 would hardly be wanting instant success.  I think most of us just want to see improvement on the court.  And not just in the form of wins.  We've had 3 seasons of poor outside shooting, poor FT shooting,  poor defense against the 3 and an offense that nobody understands.  Just show us something to give us hope for the future.

 Oh and If you all think the fans here are losing faith you better not venture to facebook or any other sites anytime soon.  

I'm not calling for Archie's head.  Even if we miss the dance again.  Next year his seat will be very hot though.  

Go Hoosiers!!!

In addition, when you see coaches at Louisville, Ohio State, and Texas Tech who have been on the job a similar amount of time as Archie and are in the top 10 or going to FFs, that's a tough pill to swallow as well. 

[macomb hoosier]

16 minutes ago, BobSaccamanno said:

Green can do alot of good things.  But if he goes into insanity mode, I pull him, period.  That's the best way to get the message across.  Green has aspirations beyond this year.  He will suck it up and get with it if he learns the hard way.

Ok,

So, Archie pulls him at 6:49 and gives him a talking to and then puts him back in at 5:27. Maybe not an RMK plant your but on the bench move, but I'd say about as hard as you can go in a game when the other team is playing 4 guards and you have 3 (+ Damezi). I also think RP was begging to be pulled from the game. You can see Archie kept putting him in and RP kept taking himself out. RP didn't have the legs for this game.

[IUFLA]

1 minute ago, IU878176 said:

It’s also “cherry picking” to say that when things went well it was because of Archie and the staff but it was on the players when it went bad.  TJD did not have a shot in the last 9 minutes. Think about that. Is that partly on the players? Yes it is but I think Archie was also allowed to call a time out and draw up a play(s)/make adjustments to help remedy the situation. 

And, as I've stated numerous times throughout this thread, what do you think he was telling them during time outs? Watch his post game press conference. He told them what they needed to do...feed the post, play defense...coaches don't miss free throws...they don't turn the ball over...it's not a magic wand they wave to make all the mistakes go away...

The plan is either good or bad...if the plan is good and the execution is good, we win...if the plan is good, but the execution isn't, we lose...

[BobSaccamanno]

1 minute ago, IUFLA said:

I think that's called "cherry picking."

The game plan, pounding it inside, was solid. It got us a double digits lead. It got us to the line. We dominated them on the boards...That was a game plan Archie and his staff drew up..

In the last 7 minutes, we (meaning the players) made poor decisions... especially our backcourt. Green was the major offender, but Rob and Armaan both had issues as well...who else could Archie turn to? 

You said bring in a walk-on...when? With 7 minutes to go in a tight game? 1:30? When do you teach that lesson?

Man, I could have heard the howling clean down here in Texas in Archie had done that.

 

Thanks for the response.  I don't agree with your take on the game, but we can agree to disagree.  We would just get repetitive at this point.

I do take issue with you muddling and twisting two of my points, though.  I illustrated what Knight did over the years in terms of the bench and you know darn well that it worked for decades.  That was a broader point.  Archie was not able to stabilize the team and get them on message down the stretch which was a failure in a specific situation, which was on the coach.  

You talk about 1:35 but the critical part was when we were up double digits and squandered it in an instant with ill-advised shots and erratic decision-making.  They didn't value the ball at all.  That was the point where the coach needs to see what is crumbling and get to the bottom of it.  1:35 was after the critical segment of the game.  Beyond that, it is alarming how mentally out of touch the guards are as if they have had no training in how to handle the situation you are in.  That's coaching, preparation, film study, etc.  Our guys should not be so out of touch or should at least be able to be reigned in quickly because they are so well schooled.  

I am not sure how people think it is defensible to think that it's not on a coach to get his team to play smarter basketball.  There's hardly anything more fundamental in a coach's job. 

[IUskim]

9 minutes ago, Zlinedavid said:

Arkansas' guards would have eaten him alive on the other end. Not that anyone else was doing a Kawhi impression, but Bybee is at least a step or two slower than anyone else that was on the floor yesterday. He's not the answer.

Ok good point you got me. 

[IU Scott]

13 hours ago, Long Duk Dong said:

Alabama football was in the same position that Indiana basketball has been in before they hired Saban.

I don't know who would be available. That's above my pay grade. The best AD's get it done.

Well if you can fire a coach then you should be able to come up with a replacement

[IU878176]

Just now, IUFLA said:

And, as I've stated numerous times throughout this thread, what do you think he was telling them during time outs? Watch his post game press conference. He told them what they needed to do...feed the post, play defense...coaches don't miss free throws...they don't turn the ball over...it's not a magic wand they wave to make all the mistakes go away...

The plan is either good or bad...if the plan is good and the execution is good, we win...if the plan is good, but the execution isn't, we lose...

A magic wand might help. This is the third year he has mentioned players needing to focus etc. 

ND and Arkansas both made basically the same half time adjustment leading to poor second halves. I’m guessing BT coaches won’t wait until halftime to pack the lane. I’m sticking with my guess (hope) of 10 conference wins but my confidence level of that happening is about 10%. Who knows....Things might look better If Rob and Hunter can get it going.

[Hoosierhoopster]

20 minutes ago, BobSaccamanno said:

None of those points change the fact that the game was mishandled.  Of course, if you come down and hit every shot you will win every game.  That is not the point.

The team was in position to win the game and blew it through self-destructive play that goes directly to coaching.

It's fair to say the coach / staff blew this game. It's also fair to point out the coach / staff can't shoot for the players. It's also fair to point out the question he posed to you, when should a walk-on get put in the game, in the final 7 minutes? Realistically, that would'n't have gone any better and probably would've gone worse. Then the outcry would've been about just that, and deservedly. Pretty extreme to think of putting a walkon in in that situation, isn't it? 

I think we're all pretty pissed off at how this game went down, but when we step back from the emotional side of it, besides saying mistakes were made (they were), going further and calling for a coach's head is pretty extreme stuff. We were winning, we were winning well, we should've won -- but there were player mistakes and coaching mistakes at the end. That pretty much sums it up.

[BobSaccamanno]

6 minutes ago, macomb hoosier said:

Ok,

So, Archie pulls him at 6:49 and gives him a talking to and then puts him back in at 5:27. Maybe not an RMK plant your but on the bench move, but I'd say about as hard as you can go in a game when the other team is playing 4 guards and you have 3 (+ Damezi). I also think RP was begging to be pulled from the game. You can see Archie kept putting him in and RP kept taking himself out. RP didn't have the legs for this game.

RP is my favorite player and has been since we recruited him.  You can't find me say a negative thing about him.  I have said before I think he can be a Mike Conley level player, and Conley has made tens of millions.  The kid can pass, shoot, and defend.  He's got leadership.  There's nothing to not like about him.

But, the first and most important trait a player has is availability.  RP has not been consistently there for the team.  It may not have been his fault but at some point you have to play consistently and be there.  That has yet to happen.

[Zlinedavid]

9 minutes ago, AxnJxn said:

In addition, when you see coaches at Louisville, Ohio State, and Texas Tech who have been on the job a similar amount of time as Archie and are in the top 10 or going to FFs, that's a tough pill to swallow as well. 

In my opinion that is based in research, it isn't a pill at all. 3 years is the normal amount of time. Do some coaches do it in less time, sure. But 3 is the number of seasons before real results start happening.