Three point shooting back to last year's percentage

[Cutter]

1 hour ago, IUFLA said:

But, to find out they have to at least have a fair chance...

I certainly don’t disagree with that, but the odds are against us to think he is the guy. I really hope he is the guy but the jury is still out. As some have pointed out there is some deficiencies in roster management specifically 3 point shooters and another point guard with 2 open scholarships, not completely void of but lack of in game adjustments, a defense that give up to many open looks, lack of urgency to compete with full energy and purpose, some puzzling substitution patterns at times, there is more but those are glaring issues that as a high level job and pay compensated coach needed to have addressed in year 3 to make a clear path to high level success in the following years. And if TJD goes pro after this year wow , next year will be a tough year again it would appear!

[HoosierDom]

59 minutes ago, IowaHoosierFan said:

If you are referring to DD, hasn't been anything since day one, can't count him in my opinion and if your referring to Hunter, we have no idea what he will do.  He hasn't shown anything yet that says he would make a difference if oh the court even when he was healthy.

My point was everyone is laying it on Rob add the reason for poor play or the 2 loses.  We shouldn't be a team that falls apart when one player is down or playing poorly.

But that is just my opinion, reach to their own

Seems as though you are arguing Davis and Hunter are so injured, they shouldn't count as being injured. 

[IUFLA]

28 minutes ago, Cutter said:

I certainly don’t disagree with that, but the odds are against us to think he is the guy. I really hope he is the guy but the jury is still out. As some have pointed out there is some deficiencies in roster management specifically 3 point shooters and another point guard with 2 open scholarships, not completely void of but lack of in game adjustments, a defense that give up to many open looks, lack of urgency to compete with full energy and purpose, some puzzling substitution patterns at times, there is more but those are glaring issues that as a high level job and pay compensated coach needed to have addressed in year 3 to make a clear path to high level success in the following years. And if TJD goes pro after this year wow , next year will be a tough year again it would appear!

As far as roster management goes, I've tried to demonstrate (apparently unsuccessfully) that Archie has in fact recognized and tried to fill what he sees (as well as posters here see) as our roster holes. His first real class: 3 wings, a PG, and a big. 2nd class: the best big in the state (and one of the best in the nation) and a combo guard that can play the point. He was also in on 2 PGs (Quinones and Carton) until the end, and another wing (Brooks).

To me the 2 open schollies is irrelevant. I guess we could have went all Tom Crean and went for lower rated kids, but I don't think that solves anything. We're 11 deep now. I'm quite sure if CAM could have gotten someone that he thought could help this group, he would have.

As for the rest of your speculation, I think there are but a handful of posters on here with the basketball knowledge to make those assessments. I'm certainly not one of them and even the ones who are, lack the full bundle of information to make a valid assessment.

[rico]

2 hours ago, IU Scott said:

Yes if you watch the 30/30 of the class that saved Coach K.  they were talking to Bilas and Alerie and they went to dinner with one of their girlfriends family which was a big booster.  During dinner the girl's father mentioned to them that they had a petition put together to get the coach fired.

Years after the fact and I wouldn't trust Bilas any farther than I could throw him.  Sensationalism as usual from ESPN.

[Billingsley99]

4 minutes ago, rico said:

Years after the fact and I wouldn't trust Bilas any farther than I could throw him.  Sensationalism as usual from ESPN.

Did not watch the 30/30 and not sure if they gave any credit to RMK, but RMK got K the job and helped him immensely keep it.

[IUFLA]

7 minutes ago, rico said:

Years after the fact and I wouldn't trust Bilas any farther than I could throw him.  Sensationalism as usual from ESPN.

Link

"It’s difficult nowadays to fully conceptualize that the winningest coach in men’s basketball history was once on the hot seat at the program with which he is now synonymous. Krzyzewski, for his part, has forgotten neither the naysayers, nor those that were fully invested in him.

“There’s still people that I have nothing to do with, who now want to cuddle up and say, ‘We believed in you.’ No you didn’t. Besides my family, there are two people who believed in me: my AD and my [university] president. And it’s it’s one of the reasons I’m here at Duke for 37 years, because they still believe in me.”

[Cutter]

28 minutes ago, IUFLA said:

As far as roster management goes, I've tried to demonstrate (apparently unsuccessfully) that Archie has in fact recognized and tried to fill what he sees (as well as posters here see) as our roster holes. His first real class: 3 wings, a PG, and a big. 2nd class: the best big in the state (and one of the best in the nation) and a combo guard that can play the point. He was also in on 2 PGs (Quinones and Carton) until the end, and another wing (Brooks).

To me the 2 open schollies is irrelevant. I guess we could have went all Tom Crean and went for lower rated kids, but I don't think that solves anything. We're 11 deep now. I'm quite sure if CAM could have gotten someone that he thought could help this group, he would have.

As for the rest of your speculation, I think there are but a handful of posters on here with the basketball knowledge to make those assessments. I'm certainly not one of them and even the ones who are, lack the full bundle of information to make a valid assessment.

Its not about getting in on someone it’s about filling needs, we have needed 3 point shooting from the perimeter and wings and we still don’t have it, that’s CAM fault. We need a backup point guard and we don’t have one! That’s CAM fault. Not being snippet but I think everything I stated has been shown by numbers against decent opponents and the so called eye test. I am so looking forward to the BIG TEN season as there will be no more easy game like our first 8 or so we’re. It will show where we are at with the program. Hope for the best but prepare for the worst. I don’t take losses to hard anymore as I don’t with where a high school kid chooses to play basketball!!!! I don’t think anything I said is speculation although it’s just my opinion. 

[rico]

7 minutes ago, IUFLA said:

Link

"It’s difficult nowadays to fully conceptualize that the winningest coach in men’s basketball history was once on the hot seat at the program with which he is now synonymous. Krzyzewski, for his part, has forgotten neither the naysayers, nor those that were fully invested in him.

“There’s still people that I have nothing to do with, who now want to cuddle up and say, ‘We believed in you.’ No you didn’t. Besides my family, there are two people who believed in me: my AD and my [university] president. And it’s it’s one of the reasons I’m here at Duke for 37 years, because they still believe in me.”

That link is garbage.  Dawkins, Alarie, and Henderson were the leaders of that '86 squad.  Ferry and Bilas were role players.

[IUFLA]

4 minutes ago, rico said:

That link is garbage.  Dawkins, Alarie, and Henderson were the leaders of that '86 squad.  Ferry and Bilas were role players.

What you state about the leaders of the 86 team is true...posted the link, and the direct quote from Coach K in answer to your "Do any of us know how the Duke fan base was then?" question...

[IU Scott]

12 minutes ago, Cutter said:

Its not about getting in on someone it’s about filling needs, we have needed 3 point shooting from the perimeter and wings and we still don’t have it, that’s CAM fault. We need a backup point guard and we don’t have one! That’s CAM fault. Not being snippet but I think everything I stated has been shown by numbers against decent opponents and the so called eye test. I am so looking forward to the BIG TEN season as there will be no more easy game like our first 8 or so we’re. It will show where we are at with the program. Hope for the best but prepare for the worst. I don’t take losses to hard anymore as I don’t with where a high school kid chooses to play basketball!!!! I don’t think anything I said is speculation although it’s just my opinion. 

I agree that our first 6 games were easy but LA Tech and Princeton are good programs.

[IowaHoosierFan]

48 minutes ago, HoosierDom said:

Seems as though you are arguing Davis and Hunter are so injured, they shouldn't count as being injured. 

When DD was healthy he never panned out.  Just really never lived up to his potential whether hurt or healthy.

As for Hunter, he got allot of hype and made everyone excited but hasn't yet abs we don't know if he will.  I hate saying we would be better if Hunter was the one and done everyone says he was.  When healthy this year he just hasn't played that well.  Some good minutes But overall feels like a freshman.  Maybe in another year or 2 he will be at his potential.

I just really hate making excuses for every other player not doing their job due to Rob being injured, which does hurt, and the potential everyone thought 2 other players have.

Just my thoughts though.  Feel free t disagree

[BGleas]

Here's where I'm at. I think Archie can coach. I think he's a good basketball coach, with potential to be great. I think we can definitely debate things about the pack line, his insistence on sticking with the big lineup, do we shoot/make enough 3's to really be elite, etc., etc. But, I'm 100% confident Archie can coach. I think fans sometimes default to "adjustments" and "substitution patterns" when they're mad after a loss. The substitutions are fine, though not disagreeing that I prefer a smaller rotation, and the adjustments are fine in most areas. 

I also agree with being patient. I was very vocal last season that patience is needed, and while not every coach works out, there are far more examples of patience working out than just Coach K (Izzo, Beilein, Bennett, Wright, etc., etc.). Yes, many others don't work out, but there is only one way to find out. 

With all of that said, I am getting a little concerned, but not so much about his actual coaching chops, more about the roster. The roster has clear deficiencies and talent gaps, and I don't know that they're being addressed as well as they need to be. I'm all for patience as has been noted, but I'm not sure where things go or how patient we can be if IU misses the tournament this year and some of the decifiences aren't fixed. We're banking on a lot of kids ranked 100+, especially at the guard/wing spots, to fix this thing. 

IU's social media put out some videos over the last day or two of the top basketball moments of the last decade, the 1,000 pt scorers of the last decade, etc., etc., and one thing that struck me was how much talent was in those videos (Zeller, Oladipo, Bryant, Yogi, Watford, Troy Williams, etc.), and IMO the only guy on the roster that fits that mold currently is TJD. You need more than one of those guys to win consistently and to win big.

No, I'm not a one and done guy, and yes I do believe in the 'get old, stay old' mantra, but we're banking a lot on Phinisee, Franklin, Hunter's health and recovery, Anderson, some freshmen wings and TJD coming back going into next season. 

Yes, let's wait and see how it plays out of course, but I have no problem with being concerned at the moment. I don't agree with calling for Archie's head after every loss. I'd feel way, way better if we had a top 50 point guard and/or a top 50 ranked shooter/wing coming in the next class. 

[Cutter]

21 minutes ago, IU Scott said:

I agree that our first 6 games were easy but LA Tech and Princeton are good programs.

Well they are ok programs in my opinion but, if we were where the program needs to be they should be easy games most years. Expectations have been lowered to allow Archie time to get the program where it needs to be. That’s ok but in the near future there has to be a big leap on the court performance and expectations should rise to the level or near the level of the glory days when we have the right guy. It might be Archie or it might not I don’t know. Unfortunately some lowered expectations long before Archie got the job and that just makes some of us more impatient me included 

[IU Scott]

34 minutes ago, IowaHoosierFan said:

When DD was healthy he never panned out.  Just really never lived up to his potential whether hurt or healthy.

As for Hunter, he got allot of hype and made everyone excited but hasn't yet abs we don't know if he will.  I hate saying we would be better if Hunter was the one and done everyone says he was.  When healthy this year he just hasn't played that well.  Some good minutes But overall feels like a freshman.  Maybe in another year or 2 he will be at his potential.

I just really hate making excuses for every other player not doing their job due to Rob being injured, which does hurt, and the potential everyone thought 2 other players have.

Just my thoughts though.  Feel free t disagree

I disagree with you on DD because I felt he was developing nicely until his Achilles injury.  His freshman year there was not much playing time available but when he got an opportunity he showed very good low post moves.  His sophomore year that game against Duke at home he was very good.

[IU Scott]

9 minutes ago, Cutter said:

Well they are ok programs in my opinion but, if we were where the program needs to be they should be easy games most years. Expectations have been lowered to allow Archie time to get the program where it needs to be. That’s ok but in the near future there has to be a big leap on the court performance and expectations should rise to the level or near the level of the glory days when we have the right guy. It might be Archie or it might not I don’t know. Unfortunately some lowered expectations long before Archie got the job and that just makes some of us more impatient me included 

Well teams like SFA won at Duke, Evansville won at UK and Fla. A&M won at Iowa St so at least we won our easy games.

[Zlinedavid]

Agree on De'Ron.  Lower body injuries are always harder for a big man to come back from. 

I don't think he's in Mo Creek territory (dear Lord...if only....), but he showed potential. 

[Cutter]

10 minutes ago, IU Scott said:

Well teams like SFA won at Duke, Evansville won at UK and Fla. A&M won at Iowa St so at least we won our easy games.

Yes you are right I really look forward to see where we are in March 

[BGleas]

Didn't know where to put this, so will put it here. Disclaimer, this is not a bash Justin Smith or Al Durham post, IMO this is more about the big lineup clogging things up for IU.

But, against power 5 schools Smith is averaging 9.6 ppg on 44% from the field and 14.2% from 3. Against the 7 non-Power 5 schools he averaged 14. 2 pgg on 57.3% from the field and 36.3% from 3. 

Against Power 5 schools Al Durham is averaging 8.6 ppg on 35% from the field and 33% from 3. Against the non-Power 5 schools he averaged 13.7 ppg on 57% from the field and 42% from 3. 

This is a small sample size of course, and maybe there are better numbers to look at, but I think it's pretty clear that some guys are suffering with the big lineup. The paint is just too clogged. It's impacting guys like Smith and Durham being able to get into the paint and finish, and it's only going to get worse as we head into Big Ten play with top talent and coaches that better understand the teams deficiencies. 

You expect a little drop off, but these are pretty extreme for these two guys that are juniors. Again, the point isn't to bash them, it's that I think Smith is out of position against top-tier talent and for both the big lineup is making it almost impossible for them to get into the paint and/or to the rim, and even when they do the finishes are so much more difficult because of the traffic. 

[IU Scott]

10 minutes ago, Cutter said:

Yes you are right I really look forward to see where we are in March 

All any of us can do is let the season play out and see how we did

[IUFLA]

11 minutes ago, BGleas said:

Here's where I'm at. I think Archie can coach. I think he's a good basketball coach, with potential to be great. I think we can definitely debate things about the pack line, his insistence on sticking with the big lineup, do we shoot/make enough 3's to really be elite, etc., etc. But, I'm 100% confident Archie can coach. I think fans sometimes default to "adjustments" and "substitution patterns" when they're mad after a loss. The substitutions are fine, though not disagreeing that I prefer a smaller rotation, and the adjustments are fine in most areas. 

I also agree with being patient. I was very vocal last season that patience is needed, and while not every coach works out, there are far more examples of patience working out than just Coach K (Izzo, Beilein, Bennett, Wright, etc., etc.). Yes, many others don't work out, but there is only one way to find out. 

With all of that said, I am getting a little concerned, but not so much about his actual coaching chops, more about the roster. The roster has clear deficiencies and talent gaps, and I don't know that they're being addressed as well as they need to be. I'm all for patience as has been noted, but I'm not sure where things go or how patient we can be if IU misses the tournament this year and some of the decifiences aren't fixed. We're banking on a lot of kids ranked 100+, especially at the guard/wing spots, to fix this thing. 

IU's social media put out some videos over the last day or two of the top basketball moments of the last decade, the 1,000 pt scorers of the last decade, etc., etc., and one thing that struck me was how much talent was in those videos (Zeller, Oladipo, Bryant, Yogi, Watford, Troy Williams, etc.), and IMO the only guy on the roster that fits that mold currently is TJD. You need more than one of those guys to win consistently and to win big.

No, I'm not a one and done guy, and yes I do believe in the 'get old, stay old' mantra, but we're banking a lot on Phinisee, Franklin, Hunter's health and recovery, Anderson, some freshmen wings and TJD coming back going into next season. 

Yes, let's wait and see how it plays out of course, but I have no problem with being concerned at the moment. I don't agree with calling for Archie's head after every loss. I'd feel way, way better if we had a top 50 point guard and/or a top 50 ranked shooter/wing coming in the next class. 

I agree with the vast majority of this. I think everyone would be more at ease if we had a couple of top 50 kids coming in, but looking at the roster for next year, I'm not panicking yet...

In the Frontcourt at a minimum (barring any unforeseen transfers)

Thompson

Brunk 

Smith

Wings

Hunter

Anderson

Leal

Galloway

Geronimo

Guards

Phinisee

Durham

Franklin

I'm not wholly comfortable with that roster. As you say, TJD coming back would be a huge boon for us. But it would also put us at 12 scholarships. I know most if not all of the highly ranked recruits for 2020 are spoken for, but maybe a grad transfer would be available...

I, like you, AM confident that Archie can coach. I see that smoldering intensity that I saw in a young Bob Knight...I think he'll succeed at IU.

[IowaHoosierFan]

6 minutes ago, BGleas said:

Didn't know where to put this, so will put it here. Disclaimer, this is not a bash Justin Smith or Al Durham post, IMO this is more about the big lineup clogging things up for IU.

But, against power 5 schools Smith is averaging 9.6 ppg on 44% from the field and 14.2% from 3. Against the 7 non-Power 5 schools he averaged 14. 2 pgg on 57.3% from the field and 36.3% from 3. 

Against Power 5 schools Al Durham is averaging 8.6 ppg on 35% from the field and 33% from 3. Against the non-Power 5 schools he averaged 13.7 ppg on 57% from the field and 42% from 3. 

This is a small sample size of course, and maybe there are better numbers to look at, but I think it's pretty clear that some guys are suffering with the big lineup. The paint is just too clogged. It's impacting guys like Smith and Durham being able to get into the paint and finish, and it's only going to get worse as we head into Big Ten play with top talent and coaches that better understand the teams deficiencies. 

You expect a little drop off, but these are pretty extreme for these two guys that are juniors. Again, the point isn't to bash them, it's that I think Smith is out of position against top-tier talent and for both the big lineup is making it almost impossible for them to get into the paint and/or to the rim, and even when they do the finishes are so much more difficult because of the traffic. 

Could also be that the power five conference have better overall players and the defense is also better which could result in less points score and less open looks

[BGleas]

Just now, IowaHoosierFan said:

Could also be that the power five conference have better overall players and the defense is also better which could result in less points score and less open looks

Yes, that's absolutely part of it. Better competition, bigger, longer, more athletic competition, which ultimately mitigates our size advantage. 

[FW_Hoosier]

9 minutes ago, BGleas said:

Didn't know where to put this, so will put it here. Disclaimer, this is not a bash Justin Smith or Al Durham post, IMO this is more about the big lineup clogging things up for IU.

But, against power 5 schools Smith is averaging 9.6 ppg on 44% from the field and 14.2% from 3. Against the 7 non-Power 5 schools he averaged 14. 2 pgg on 57.3% from the field and 36.3% from 3. 

Against Power 5 schools Al Durham is averaging 8.6 ppg on 35% from the field and 33% from 3. Against the non-Power 5 schools he averaged 13.7 ppg on 57% from the field and 42% from 3. 

This is a small sample size of course, and maybe there are better numbers to look at, but I think it's pretty clear that some guys are suffering with the big lineup. The paint is just too clogged. It's impacting guys like Smith and Durham being able to get into the paint and finish, and it's only going to get worse as we head into Big Ten play with top talent and coaches that better understand the teams deficiencies. 

You expect a little drop off, but these are pretty extreme for these two guys that are juniors. Again, the point isn't to bash them, it's that I think Smith is out of position against top-tier talent and for both the big lineup is making it almost impossible for them to get into the paint and/or to the rim, and even when they do the finishes are so much more difficult because of the traffic. 

Do you have any confidence we’re going to move away from the big lineup at any point this season?  I’ve pretty much given up on that... Even though he’s pretty clearly limited and better suited for a complementary role, so much of our offense in recent games has been run through Brunk, to the point that I don’t ever see him moving to the bench.  I don’t have the numbers, but it seems like he gets twice as many touches as Smith when we’re in the halfcourt.

And on that note, isn’t an unwillingness/inability to move away from a lineup that clearly isn’t working very well a coaching issue?

[BGleas]

5 minutes ago, FW_Hoosier said:

Do you have any confidence we’re going to move away from the big lineup at any point this season?  I’ve pretty much given up on that... Even though he’s pretty clearly limited and better suited for a complementary role, so much of our offense in recent games has been run through Brunk, to the point that I don’t ever see him moving to the bench.  I don’t have the numbers, but it seems like he gets twice as many touches as Smith when we’re in the halfcourt.

And on that note, isn’t an unwillingness/inability to move away from a lineup that clearly isn’t working very well a coaching issue?

That's another reason I'd like to see IU go small. Get Smith more touches, but closer to the basket, with the first unit, and then let Brunk get close to his same production with the second unit. It also allows TJD to get more touches because the paint won't be as clogged. 

I am also losing hope that we'll move away from that lineup. Sure, it's a coaching issue, but I put it more in the bucket of philosophy. Is that semantics? Probably. But for whatever reason, Archie believes this team will win best big. We're not in practice and also health has impacted this as well. 

[rico]

1 hour ago, IUFLA said:

What you state about the leaders of the 86 team is true...posted the link, and the direct quote from Coach K in answer to your "Do any of us know how the Duke fan base was then?" question...

Understood my friend.