Penn State Postgame Thread

[BGleas]

5 minutes ago, dbmhoosier said:

Nail hits head BGleas.  My biggest issue with Archie is recruiting.  He needs to make massive improvements in that area to have any chance of surviving here long term.  A home run 2021 class is a must.

Agree, we do need to see a recruiting uptick. TJD, Geronimo and Hunter fit the bill. But overall, I feel like the classes need to be flipped. We need 2-3 top 80 guys per class and maybe 1 guy around 130ish, not the other way around where we get 1 guy top 80 and then 2-3 130+ guys. 

Also to be fair to Archie, the recruiting fell off in Crean's last couple years and he's still working on funneling those guys out, and it's tough when those guys are supposed to be your leaders and upperclassmen. 

[BGleas]

7 minutes ago, IU Scott said:

Yes I am because the poste I have been responding to hinted at wanting the very best talent which are one and done players.  I just said I wanted to IU to build their program like UVA and Villanova over how UK or Duke does.  Like I said I don't want to compare to those programs but it shows that you don't have to have elite talent to compete.  Also how many McDonald's AA played in the final four last year because those teams were not built with stars.

CincyHoosier never said anything about 5*'s or OAD's. He said high 4* guards which is what Guy, Jerome, Archiediancano, Brunson, etc. were. 

Also, the players UVA and Villanova won with absolutely were elite talents. 100% elite talents. They were all top 80 recruits and for Nova 7 of the 8 I listed have played in the NBA and for UVA 3 of the 4 (one is still at UVA). They were elite. 

[dbmhoosier]

5 minutes ago, BGleas said:

Agree, we do need to see a recruiting uptick. TJD, Geronimo and Hunter fit the bill. But overall, I feel like the classes need to be flipped. We need 2-3 top 80 guys per class and maybe 1 guy around 130ish, not the other way around where we get 1 guy top 80 and then 2-3 130+ guys. 

Also to be fair to Archie, the recruiting fell off in Crean's last couple years and he's still working on funneling those guys out, and it's tough when those guys are supposed to be your leaders and upperclassmen. 

Scary is our front court after next year.  Only Race will remain and he isn’t even available 2/3 of the time it seems.  

[CincyHoosier]

1 hour ago, rico said:

I am not advocating for a 3 guard line-up whatsoever.  Our front court is as good as any in the country.  But our inability to shoot from the outside prevents us from truly utilizing our advantage we have in the front court.  

Agree there.  It doesn't matter how good our frontcourt is when the backcourt is well below average.  It's not just shooting either.  They can't feed the post.  They make too many poor decisions.  They don't have size, or speed for that matter.  Objectively, we may have the 2nd or 3rd worst backcourt in the Big 10.

[BGleas]

2 minutes ago, dbmhoosier said:

Scary is our front court after next year.  Only Race will remain and he isn’t even available 2/3 of the time it seems.  

That's why the Dawson Garcia recruitment was so important. He would have been the bridge from TJD to the 2021 bigs. 

When I say 'important', I don't mean all of IU's hopes were on Garcia. IU can make the tournament this year and should be better next year, but if we're talking IU being a consistent Big Ten contender, consistently competing at a high level, then IU needs to string together guys like TJD, Hunter, Garcia, Lander, Furst, Kaufmann, Geronimo. String together classes that have 2-3 top 80 rated guys in them. Not one 'hero' player and then 2-3 other guys in the #150 range. 

[CincyHoosier]

1 minute ago, BGleas said:

That's why the Dawson Garcia recruitment was so important. He would have been the bridge from TJD to the 2021 bigs. 

When I say 'important', I don't mean all of IU's hopes were on Garcia. IU can make the tournament this year and should be better next year, but if we're talking IU being a consistent Big Ten contender, consistently competing at a high level, then IU needs to string together guys like TJD, Hunter, Garcia, Lander, Furst, Kaufmann, Geronimo. String together classes that have 2-3 top 80 rated guys in them. Not one 'hero' player and then 2-3 other guys in the #150 range. 

This.  And it's not like its unprecedented.  I think Archie can have sustained recruiting success if given the proper framework to operate.  Its been discussed extensively but the speculated disconnect within the IU athletic dept seems to be a big hurdle here.

[CTrojan88]

6 minutes ago, BGleas said:

Agree, we do need to see a recruiting uptick. TJD, Geronimo and Hunter fit the bill. But overall, I feel like the classes need to be flipped. We need 2-3 top 80 guys per class and maybe 1 guy around 130ish, not the other way around where we get 1 guy top 80 and then 2-3 130+ guys. 

Also to be fair to Archie, the recruiting fell off in Crean's last couple years and he's still working on funneling those guys out, and it's tough when those guys are supposed to be your leaders and upperclassmen. 

We need guys that can shoot, value the basketball, play hard and have an edge.  We also need guys that can lead and hold others accountable.  I’m tired of watching guys that can jump and touch the top of the backboard but can’t make a jump shot or simple pass.  

[BGleas]

1 minute ago, CTrojan88 said:

We need guys that can shoot, value the basketball, play hard and have an edge.  We also need guys that can lead and hold others accountable.  I’m tired of watching guys that can jump and touch the top of the backboard but can’t make a jump shot or simple pass.  

I don't understand your point? Typically the players that are the best at shooting, passing, dribbling, rebounding, etc., are the best basketball players. The best basketball players are usually the guys that are highly thought of as basketball players, no? There's a reason all those guys I listed for Villanova and UVA were highly ranked, because they're good at basketball. There's a reason 10 of the 12 guys I listed between those two teams have played in the NBA. 

[tdhoosier]

Didn't CAM admit somewhere that it was a mistake to not have more back options when recruiting guards, or he should have went after more....or something along those lines?

He has gone after guards; I think he recognized the need, but it seems that he didn't go after enough. He's going to strike out - he needs a more solid back up plan.

Now, if that's true and he's learned a lesson from that, I'm going to be seriously doubting him as 'our coach' if he doesn't go HEAVILY after grad transfers and juco guards in the off-season. 

Fool me once, shame on me. Fool me twice....uh... you can't fool me again. Is that how it goes? JK. 

[IU878176]

23 minutes ago, tdhoosier said:

Didn't CAM admit somewhere that it was a mistake to not have more back options when recruiting guards, or he should have went after more....or something along those lines?

He has gone after guards; I think he recognized the need, but it seems that he didn't go after enough. He's going to strike out - he needs a more solid back up plan.

Now, if that's true and he's learned a lesson from that, I'm going to be seriously doubting him as 'our coach' if he doesn't go HEAVILY after grad transfers and juco guards in the off-season. 

Fool me once, shame on me. Fool me twice....uh... you can't fool me again. Is that how it goes? JK. 

CAM, and all of us, knew we needed more backcourt depth. He tried as, according to 247, he offered 29 guards in his first  two classes and landed three (Romeo, Rob and Franklin). It’s too bad we didn’t find a shooter to fill one of the two open scholarships but he certainly seemed to land additional perimeter help..

[FW_Hoosier]

17 minutes ago, tdhoosier said:

Didn't CAM admit somewhere that it was a mistake to not have more back options when recruiting guards, or he should have went after more....or something along those lines?

He has gone after guards; I think he recognized the need, but it seems that he didn't go after enough. He's going to strike out - he needs a more solid back up plan.

Now, if that's true and he's learned a lesson from that, I'm going to be seriously doubting him as 'our coach' if he doesn't go HEAVILY after grad transfers and juco guards in the off-season. 

Fool me once, shame on me. Fool me twice....uh... you can't fool me again. Is that how it goes? JK. 

My all-time favorite presidential quote.

[IU/Butler/Notre Dame]

17 minutes ago, BGleas said:

I don't understand your point? Typically the players that are the best at shooting, passing, dribbling, rebounding, etc., are the best basketball players. The best basketball players are usually the guys that are highly thought of as basketball players, no? There's a reason all those guys I listed for Villanova and UVA were highly ranked, because they're good at basketball. There's a reason 10 of the 12 guys I listed between those two teams have played in the NBA. 

I’m not disagreeing with you because I also would like the most talented players we can get I think it’s fair to blend your two points though.  You picked great examples of 50-70 range players that 1. Stayed together multiple years and 2. Elevated their level of play to expectations or higher and it resulted in championships for their teams.  There are many 50-100 rated prospects who DONT fit that bill as well.  Being ranked in the top 100 is , in my opinion, based Primarily  on the following 1. Ability to score the ball 2. Size relative  to position 3. Athleticism 4. Potential for growth ( physically or game growth ).  Aau basketball has become a scoring competition amongst the most athletic players.  Team basketball has been de-emphasized in summer play.   To make a generic example 6’4 kid who is fast and can jump out of the gym but ISNT the most consistent shooter and dominates the ball rather than facilitating is going to get more attention than a 6 ft kid who can’t jump as high but is more consistent in the other areas.  I think you both wanted THE most talented kids I think he’s just saying don’t look at their star level alone we have to also make sure they fit the program or identity that the coach wants to have.  The lack of consistency is a major problem for us and right know even a Kyle Hornsby type player would do absolute wonders for us spacing the floor and limiting turnovers

take the highest rated guys on your board but don’t offer unless your sure they fit the mold and that includes intelligence and shooting 

[IU878176]

33 minutes ago, BGleas said:

That's why the Dawson Garcia recruitment was so important. He would have been the bridge from TJD to the 2021 bigs. 

When I say 'important', I don't mean all of IU's hopes were on Garcia. IU can make the tournament this year and should be better next year, but if we're talking IU being a consistent Big Ten contender, consistently competing at a high level, then IU needs to string together guys like TJD, Hunter, Garcia, Lander, Furst, Kaufmann, Geronimo. String together classes that have 2-3 top 80 rated guys in them. Not one 'hero' player and then 2-3 other guys in the #150 range. 

Garcia was very important. I think the odds of TJD leaving this year are slim, and he is not showing up on any draft boards, but if he does leave this year or next we are in world of hurt in the front court. We need a really good 2021 class.

[Zuckerkorn]

17 minutes ago, CTrojan88 said:

We need guys that can shoot, value the basketball, play hard and have an edge.  We also need guys that can lead and hold others accountable.  I’m tired of watching guys that can jump and touch the top of the backboard but can’t make a jump shot or simple pass.  

Can't disagree with any of this - at all.

And yes, those are the traits of the best players.  It was certainly music to the ear when CAM said he was going to close the borders, given the number of top players that went elsewhere.  But - I don't believe you can thrive exclusively on in-state recruits.  Some years may be lacking in high level players or ones that play the position you need to fill.  Also, elite players will always be drawn to the most successful programs or those located closer to their hometown than Bloomington.

All of this is why we still need to be active and successful with players beyond the Indiana state lines, which frankly CAM has not been (Thompson, Hunter & now and Geronimo next year are his only ones).

[CincyHoosier]

8 minutes ago, IU878176 said:

Garcia was very important. I think the odds of TJD leaving this year are slim, and he is not showing up on any draft boards, but if he does leave this year or next we are in world of hurt in the front court. We need a really good 2021 class.

A trio of Lander, Furst, and Kaufman all coming in 2021 would fix a lot of our problems.  Long shot, but we need these guys to come in and contribute right away.

[Jackson Kellogs]

2 hours ago, IUrocker said:

I just think the toughness and refuse to lose attitudes will be completely evident and be the biggest different alone when it comes to the freshman we have coming in. Just them knowing what it means to wear Indiana across their chest and actually giving a damn is the most welcome addition through subtraction to me. I understand that they may be unheralded and unknown from a talent standpoint right off the bat as freshmen, but I can guarantee they are gonna show more fight than the dudes we will be subtracting. 

I couldn't agree more. We need kids who want to run over every opponent we face. I'm tired of watching this team act like they don't care when they're getting their ass beat. They need to get some fire in their ass and man up and bear down when everything hits the fan. I want to see guys get into each other. Sick and tired of these soft players and their attitudes. 

[BGleas]

10 minutes ago, IU878176 said:

Garcia was very important. I think the odds of TJD leaving this year are slim, and he is not showing up on any draft boards, but if he does leave this year or next we are in world of hurt in the front court. We need a really good 2021 class.

Agree, and I don't think TJD is leaving this either. What I meant by Garcia being a bridge is that to really have sustained success where there aren't really significant drop offs, you bring TJD in one year and he stays 2-3 years, then you bring in Garcia the next and he stays 2-4 years, and then in 2021 you have some combination of Furst and Kauffman. So, Garcia would have been the bridge (playing 1 year with TJD and maybe 2 with Furst and/or Kaufmann). You're blending those guys together to learn and grow from each other and consistently replenishing the pipeline. 

Not where with Crean we had Zeller, Vonleh and Bryant, and none of them ever played together and some years we had nobody, because the pipeline wasn't consistent. 

[IU Scott]

1 minute ago, BGleas said:

Agree, and I don't think TJD is leaving this either. What I meant by Garcia being a bridge is that to really have sustained success where there aren't really significant drop offs, you bring TJD in one year and he stays 2-3 years, then you bring in Garcia the next and he stays 2-4 years, and then in 2021 you have some combination of Furst and Kauffman. So, Garcia would have been the bridge (playing 1 year with TJD and maybe 2 with Furst and/or Kaufmann). You're blending those guys together to learn and grow from each other and consistently replenishing the pipeline. 

Not where with Crean we had Zeller, Vonleh and Bryant, and none of them ever played together and some years we had nobody, because the pipeline wasn't consistent. 

From what I have read that Garcia sees him as a one and done player if possible.

[IU/Butler/Notre Dame]

12 minutes ago, CincyHoosier said:

A trio of Lander, Furst, and Kaufman all coming in 2021 would fix a lot of our problems.  Long shot, but we need these guys to come in and contribute right away.

I agree! Saw Kaufman a couple times ...I really was impressed with his teammate jacobi ( Jacoby ) also ....lander I’m still not AS sold on , he may have just been disinterested the time i saw him and with people fighting over him he may not be 100% all the type but I thought the silver creek duo looked better against black hawk than lander did in his game I just want to make sure we have high energy guys that play that way ALl the time ...has anyone seen lander more often that could touch on this ?

[Hoosierhoopster]

1 hour ago, CincyHoosier said:

Agree there.  It doesn't matter how good our frontcourt is when the backcourt is well below average.  It's not just shooting either.  They can't feed the post.  They make too many poor decisions.  They don't have size, or speed for that matter.  Objectively, we may have the 2nd or 3rd worst backcourt in the Big 10.

Why is so this hard for some to recognize or agree to? Who cares how good your front court is if your back court/guards/wings don't space the floor, open lanes, allow for real inside-out (which, again, opens the floor BOTH inside and out), etc. 

However, Rob generally is excellent -- and far exceeds his high school "ranking." Issue there is health, not his ranking. He easily fits the bill.

Aside, agree generally with some posts above on recruiting objectives and rankings, but rankings are a starting point -- the obvious exceptions, Oladipo, OG, but then multiple hugely important players -- Hulls, for example, the driver of our teams notwithstanding the lack of speed / athleticism for the NBA. Fwiw, Hulls was generally ranked in the 100-110 area.

We absolutely need to be recruiting points, combo-guards who can shoot, and/or real 2-guards. Another ranking miscue though, by all accounts Geronimo is much better than his ranking, though of course time will tell. 

[5fouls]

4 minutes ago, Jackson Kellogs said:

So if you have a problem with what I have to say *********

I had a co-worker many years a go with let's call it an abundant posterior.  She told me to kiss her ass one day and I replied with 'My lips aren't big enough'.  

Petty of me, but I think I won the exchange.

[Hoosierhoopster]

Guys, everyone gets hyped up at times, but leave the personal stuff off the board.

[Hoosierhoopster]

OK this is kind of obvious but please don't quote things that shouldn't have been posted in the first place. Thanks.

[Jackson Kellogs]

2 minutes ago, Hoosierhoopster said:

Guys, everyone gets hyped up at times, but leave the personal stuff off the board.

Deleted the post. I just don't like soft minded people. Sorry. 

[IUfan93]

57 minutes ago, BGleas said:

That's why the Dawson Garcia recruitment was so important. He would have been the bridge from TJD to the 2021 bigs. 

When I say 'important', I don't mean all of IU's hopes were on Garcia. IU can make the tournament this year and should be better next year, but if we're talking IU being a consistent Big Ten contender, consistently competing at a high level, then IU needs to string together guys like TJD, Hunter, Garcia, Lander, Furst, Kaufmann, Geronimo. String together classes that have 2-3 top 80 rated guys in them. Not one 'hero' player and then 2-3 other guys in the #150 range. 

Agree 100%. I like CAM but his recruiting is suspect and roster management will determine whether he stays or goes. It seems someone posted that he was not a big recruiter of shooters at Dayton either. This is the B1G...he has to get guards/wings that can shoot and slash with  basketball IQ or we will live on in mediocrity until the next coach is brought in. Like it or not...TJD was telling ppl on campus this summer hes a OAD( and I know this bc he told a student I heard it directly from) so I’m sure if he gets on the draft board or if he’s told thru testing the waters he can go he’s a goner. Then what?  What we have coming is no replacement for him. I think if CAM doesn’t get in the tournament this year and we continue this struggle next he’s likely not going to be here for another season. I think he can coach but I question his substitutions, his stubbornness not to pull Green, and sometimes even his willingness to let these long scoring droughts go on without some timeouts to draw up some plays to possibly get something going. He can’t make baskets for them...I get it but he’s the coach and at some point he’s got to do something for these guys to get them in positions to score some points...be that as adjustments to what the defense is doing or putting a different lineup on the floor. On to OSU...hoping we see better guard play and a better overall game effort by coach and players.