Coach Mike Woodson Megathread

[Kdug]

27 minutes ago, KoB2011 said:

There are problems with just looking at KenPom ranks YoY and averages, but while acknowledging that:

Last 3 Years of Archie: average finish was 45

Last 3 Years of Woodson: average KenPom is 59

 

I’d say that’s a bit misleading. Realistically, you want top 10 kenpom teams (national title contenders), top 25 (sweet 16/E8 potential), or top 50 (bubble tournament team). Anything worse than that is a failure. Archie had 1 top 50 team in his 4 years, while Woodson has had 2. Neither have had any top 25 teams.

Ultimately neither of those is good enough, but I’d take Woodson’s results over Archie’s.

Edited February 4 by Kdug

[KoB2011]

6 minutes ago, Kdug said:

I’d say that’s a bit misleading. Realistically, you want top 10 kenpom teams (national title contenders), top 25 (sweet 16/E8 potential), or top 50 (bubble tournament team). Anything worse than that is a failure. Archie had 1 top 50 team in his 4 years, while Woodson has had 2. Neither have had any top 25 teams.

Ultimately neither of those is good enough, but I’d take Woodson’s results over Archie’s.

Archie had 2 top 50 as well, and another that was barely outside of it. One of Archie’s top 50 just happened to be a weird year that we missed out on playing 5 cupcakes because of covid.

I do ultimately agree I’d take Woodson over Archie, but it’s honestly not by much. 

[HoosierDom]

2 minutes ago, KoB2011 said:

Archie had 2 top 50 as well, and another that was barely outside of it. One of Archie’s top 50 just happened to be a weird year that we missed out on playing 5 cupcakes because of covid.

I do ultimately agree I’d take Woodson over Archie, but it’s honestly not by much. 

I agree, but let's not forget that Woodson's two good years were on the back of the superstar that Archie brought in.

[Kdug]

1 minute ago, HoosierDom said:

I agree, but let's not forget that Woodson's two good years were on the back of the superstar that Archie brought in.

Eh, Archie wasn’t able to do anything with that same superstar, and TJD got noticeably better under Woodson. 
 

This year has no doubt been a disaster, and the program currently has a very negative trajectory. But there were still some good things the first two years under Woodson that he deserves credit for.

[HoosierDom]

10 minutes ago, Kdug said:

Eh, Archie wasn’t able to do anything with that same superstar, and TJD got noticeably better under Woodson. 
 

This year has no doubt been a disaster, and the program currently has a very negative trajectory. But there were still some good things the first two years under Woodson that he deserves credit for.

TJD improved a lot under Woodson, no doubt. That doesn't mean he wouldn't have improved under Archie, nor does it mean he even would have come here in the first place under Woodson. It simply means that Woodson inherited a superstar, and was only okay with him on the team and now is approaching awful with him not on the team.

[tdhoosier]

19 hours ago, BGleas said:

I've said this consistently the last couple of weeks. I think Woodson deserves another year, but I think whether he deserves another year is irrelevant and completely the wrong question. 

If you're the AD or whoever is making these decisions, the only question that matters is, "do you think Mike Woodson and his staff are the people to turn this around in a big way?"

If the answer is "no", then you have to clean house after this season. If the answer is "yes", then as the AD I would need an extremely detailed plan from Woodson clearly outlining how he plans to turn it around. If I like the plan then I guess he would get that year that he deserves. If I don't (ie. very little change, need to get them over the hump, etc.) then you also have to make the change. 

 

I keep coming back to this. 

Can Woody own up to and identify decisions he’s made that have resulted in poor outcomes.

- Why has our defensive metrics gotten worse every season? 

- Is trading 2’s for 3’s a realistic formula to win in today’s game?

- Why has every roster struggled at the free throw line?

- Why has every roster struggled to rebound as a team?

- If all the above is related to personnel, then what is the staff’s plan to identify and get the right guys? IF he can’t get these guys, is he willing to adapt/change the system?

I’m sure that behind the scenes, Woody is not giving ‘press conference answers’ to the questions above and there is some real soul searching going on. I do not doubt Woody’s love for IU and his desire to succeed, but after a season like this, a probing performance review is imperative.  Dolson is a basketball guy. Buckner is a basketball guy too. IU has people behind the scenes, that I like to think can make a fair assessment on the state of the program. 

 

 

 

[Hoosierdave]

I felt it was inappropriate and premature to post my wishlist after the Kansas/Morehead St games but the writing is on the wall now. 

As we’ve all mentioned at nauseam, this staff has proven an inability to construct a balanced roster and scheme/formula for success in modern basketball. I wish I had faith they could learn from their mistakes and turn it around but I’ve hit my limit with the stubbornness and excuses from Woody.  He avoids basic metrics that fans and journalists present to help. Not to mention, these issues (scheme, shooting, basketball IQ) stem before Woodson and the fact that Hunter and Walsh were on the previous staff and still can’t see it is also gravely concerning. 
 

Anyway, I want to preface by saying I don’t think we’d have a great chance at a lot of these guys but I think with a quality AD who understands where we would have leverage could pull it off. Not that it even matters because Woody will get an extra year…

Tier 1: Jay Wright, Scott Drew, Mark Few, Eric Mussleman, Bruce Pearl, Chris Beard, Rick Pitino, Tony Bennett, Shaka Smart

Tier 2: Greg McDermott, Porter Moser, Jerome Tang, TJ Otzelberger, Dusty May, Mick Cronin, Dana Altman, Jamie Dixon, Randy Bennett, Mike White, Micah Shrewsberry, Wes Miller, Ed Cooley, Will Wade, Josh Schertz

Edited February 4 by Hoosierdave

[IowaHoosierFan]

5 hours ago, Zuckerkorn said:

Yes, but that just isn't the IU way - we have to extend the futility at least one or two seasons too many before finally acting.

We always seem to wait at least 1 year to long and miss out on a good coach, or at least miss out on the chance of a good coach

[13th&Jackson]

Out of the bad post game quotes from CMW, this one yesterday may be the worst:

“We've got to go back to work and see if we can work our way back because that's a game that I thought if we played well we had a legitimate chance to win”

Really, coming in you felt that if you played well you had a legitimate chance to beat Penn St at home?

What happened to contending for championships?

Should you just forfeit the games coming up this week?

[Maedhros]

5 minutes ago, IowaHoosierFan said:

We always seem to wait at least 1 year to long and miss out on a good coach, or at least miss out on the chance of a good coach

5 hours ago, Zuckerkorn said:

Yes, but that just isn't the IU way - we have to extend the futility at least one or two seasons too many before finally acting.

Gotta just keep firing coaches. If you cut a guy loose the first time he falls, eventually you'll end up with a coach who never fails. That's just science. Running a college athletic department is just a game of roulette. Spin to win, baby!

[IU Scott]

36 minutes ago, Hoosierdave said:

I felt it was inappropriate and premature to post my wishlist after the Kansas/Morehead St games but the writing is on the wall now. 

As we’ve all mentioned at nauseam, this staff has proven an inability to construct a balanced roster and scheme/formula for success in modern basketball. I wish I had faith they could learn from their mistakes and turn it around but I’ve hit my limit with the stubbornness and excuses from Woody.  He avoids basic metrics that fans and journalists present to help. Not to mention, these issues (scheme, shooting, basketball IQ) stem before Woodson and the fact that Hunter and Walsh were on the previous staff and still can’t see it is also gravely concerning. 
 

Anyway, I want to preface by saying I don’t think we’d have a great chance at a lot of these guys but I think with a quality AD who understands where we would have leverage could pull it off. Not that it even matters because Woody will get an extra year…

Tier 1: Jay Wright, Scott Drew, Mark Few, Eric Mussleman, Bruce Pearl, Chris Beard, Rick Pitino, Tony Bennett, Shaka Smart

Tier 2: Greg McDermott, Porter Moser, Jerome Tang, TJ Otzelberger, Dusty May, Mick Cronin, Dana Altman, Jamie Dixon, Randy Bennett, Mike White, Micah Shrewsberry, Wes Miller, Ed Cooley, Will Wade, Josh Schertz

People need to stop putting Jay Wright on any list. He said on CBS that he has no desire to get back into college coaching. Mark Few will never leave Gonzaga  because he loves living  there. He has a huge house on a lake and him and his sons can go boating anytime they want.

Edited February 4 by IU Scott

[Hoosierdave]

6 minutes ago, IU Scott said:

People need to stop putting Jay Wright on any list. He said on CBS that he has no desire to get back into college coaching. Mark Few will never leave Gonzaga  because he lives his  fe there. He has a huge house on a lake and him and his sons can go boating anytime they want.

“I’m not going to be the Alabama coach”

-Nick Saban

[tdhoosier]

7 minutes ago, IU Scott said:

People need to stop putting Jay Wright on any list. He said on CBS that he has no desire to get back into college coaching. Mark Few will never leave Gonzaga  because he loves living  there. He has a huge house on a lake and him and his sons can go boating anytime they want.

Just make a house on Lake Monroe a part of the package. And a boat. And our souls. 

[BankShot]

30 minutes ago, Maedhros said:

Gotta just keep firing coaches. If you cut a guy loose the first time he falls, eventually you'll end up with a coach who never fails. That's just science. Running a college athletic department is just a game of roulette. Spin to win, baby!

Best way to stop firing coaches is to quit hiring the wrong ones in the first place.

[NotIThatLives]

6 minutes ago, tdhoosier said:

Just make a house on Lake Monroe a part of the package. And a boat. And our souls. 

If it was true that we were able to offer Stevens 7 and 70 3 years ago then in today's money you give a Jay Wright 7 and 100.  Not my money anyway.  

[mrflynn03]

Mark Few is 61. Woodson was what, 62-63 when he was hired and most people were bitching about his age.  

I'm not convinced he would be as successful in the B1G as he has been at gonazaga. 

Edited February 4 by mrflynn03

[IUDan93]

I think it says a great deal about our program when we look at TJD as a "once in a generation" talent. I mean zero disrespect, but he is would not be a once in a generation talent at UK, KU, UNC, Duke, MSU, etc.  He was never going to be able to take us deep in the tourney, a la Dwayne Wade, Danny Manning.

I don't care who IU hires as a coach, the chances of them taking IU to the top of college basketball is at best 50-50. I could argue that we need to afford CMW the opportunity to learn, adapt, adjust. I know that many fans will say that we see no signs that he is capable of doing this.  I can't argue that, but I cannot imagine that he is as dumb and lazy as some posters make him out to be. 

 

[IU Scott]

1 hour ago, Hoosierdave said:

“I’m not going to be the Alabama coach”

-Nick Saban

Totally different situation.

[KoB2011]

 

[Hoosierdave]

33 minutes ago, IU Scott said:

Totally different situation.

Understand and respect what you’re saying but that wasn’t my point. My point was that just because someone says something and feels a certain way in the past doesn’t mean that the right timing and opportunity can change a perspective. Saban drew a clear line in the sand with that comment but it didn’t prevent the Bama AD from shooting for the stars and being relentless with what he wanted. That attitude and mentality resulted in landing the best college football coach of all time. 
 

Also, not sure why you’re dismissing the idea that we wouldn’t try with Jay Wright when multiple people have said Dolson was in talks with Brad Stevens and his wife about making him the highest paid CBB coach. 

[DC2345]

1 hour ago, NotIThatLives said:

If it was true that we were able to offer Stevens 7 and 70 3 years ago then in today's money you give a Jay Wright 7 and 100.  Not my money anyway.  

Jay Wright isn’t going to come out of retirement. It’s just not happening. 

[DC2345]

Woodson’s seat is warming faster than many thought it would a few weeks ago. 

[Jackson Kellogs]

Let him go after this year. Plain and simple. 

[BGleas]

3 minutes ago, Hoosierdave said:

Understand and respect what you’re saying but that wasn’t my point. My point was that just because someone says something and feels a certain way in the past doesn’t mean that the right timing and opportunity can change a perspective. Saban drew a clear line in the sand with that comment but it didn’t prevent the Bama AD from shooting for the stars and being relentless with what he wanted. That attitude and mentality resulted in landing the best college football coach of all time. 
 

Also, not sure why you’re dismissing the idea that we wouldn’t try with Jay Wright when multiple people have said Dolson was in talks with Brad Stevens and his wife about making him the highest paid CBB coach. 

Brad Stevens was never coming to IU. I talked to someone in the Celtics organization the summer right after Woodson was hired. 

Admittedly, I didn't directly ask about Stevens and IU but I asked my guy if they thought Stevens would ever come back to the college game. 

It was an emphatic and very quick "no", and immediately followed that up by saying Stevens has no interest in recruiting again. 

[Hoosierdave]

8 minutes ago, DC2345 said:

Jay Wright isn’t going to come out of retirement. It’s just not happening. 

I understand it’s a slim to none chance, I prefaced that with my wish list lol. It’s not like he’s the only guy I think could win big or quickly here…

My point with Saban is that he said one thing and evidently did another. Dolson at least picking up the phone and calling Stevens shows me he’s at least willing to shoot for the stars and doesn’t shy away from being rejected, which is what a smart AD should do. Imagine how silly the Bama AD would look nowadays if he took that info and accepted it and watched Saban end up at another SEC and compete for national titles every year.