Offseason 2022

[tdhoosier]

haha. @btownqb will die on this hill!  I always love the debate and appreciate the perspective. 

I do agree that Geronimo is not ready for the 3 - I just can't see that working unless he does some crazy developing in the off-season. 

If everybody stays, we appear to be set at the 4, but I will stick to my guns about needing to rotate through JG, TJD and Race. No other big man should sniff the floor unless one of those guys is in foul trouble. Because why? If you rotate through, they'll all be plenty fresh to contribute at the end of games. (this is with the caveat: unless Kaleb Banks comes in as an absolute stud and is ready to contribute)

I'm still holding out for Kopp to hit more 3s at a higher clip. But, we desperately need to find an athletic 3 in the portal who can create their own shot. It's really early, but we have not improved our greatest weakness yet: shooting. 

 

 

[btownqb]

Just now, IUCrazy2 said:

Because Race was the better player last year.  That doesn't negate the point that Geronimo was likely to be more effective as a Robin to TJD's Batman as opposed to Durr where the roles are probably reversed.

 

Durr plays 5 mins a game, literally just to give TJD a break. This point isn't irrelevant, it's obvious. Everyone is better playing with the All American..... and I can understand the argument that we could be better with JG as the starting 4 over RT this coming year. I see that argument for sure. 

[5fouls]

1 minute ago, btownqb said:

How do you practice JG at the 3? Why can't JG just be a good 4? Why is there just a discussion point about playing him a position he hasn't played? 

It's not as simple as just hitting a few buttons and then it automatically works in the game. 

Throw him lobs? What kind of lobs? We have to get in the paint more to be able to do that! I don't see how we would ever be able to penetrate with that group. The spacing is just not there, at all. It's barely, barely there with just 2 of TJD/RT/JG on the court. I can't imagine how bad it would be if all three were there. 

How would you initiate that sort of offense. Personally, I don't think JG would be efficient at all in your scenario and would be worse then RT and TJD on the block, effectiveness wise. 

 

To get in the lane, TJD follows through with his pick to free up XJ for the drive.  TJD just does not roll.  At that point, XJ with an edge driving the lane and JG waiting opens up a whole bottle of nasty things IU could do to the defense. 

As far as practice, why can't you look at your upcoming opponent, decide if it's a team you want to try this against, and then practice it for 30 minutes the day before.  Again, you're not doing this the whole game.  And, no, 30 minutes of practice isn't a lot, but teams that run into injuries and foul trouble in the game have the same issue. 

Yes, JG can be a good 4, but that doesn't mean we limit him to solely that role (especially if it causes him to leave).  If all 3 of those guys are back, you have to find ways to get them on the floor together so that everyone gets adequate minutes.   

[btownqb]

2 minutes ago, tdhoosier said:

haha. @btownqb will die on this hill!  I always love the debate and appreciate the perspective. 

I do agree that Geronimo is not ready for the 3 - I just can't see that working unless he does some crazy developing in the off-season. 

If everybody stays, we appear to be set at the 4, but I will stick to my guns about needing to rotate through JG, TJD and Race. No other big man should sniff the floor unless one of those guys is in foul trouble. Because why? If you rotate through, they'll all be plenty fresh to contribute at the end of games. (this is with the caveat: unless Kaleb Banks comes in as an absolute stud and is ready to contribute)

I'm still holding out for Kopp to hit more 3s at a higher clip. But, we desperately need to find an athletic 3 in the portal who can create their own shot. It's really early, but we have not improved our greatest weakness yet: shooting. 

 

 

This is basically what were were doing late in the year. TJD gets 2-4mins of a break each half and comes back in.

[MoyeCowbell]

3 minutes ago, btownqb said:

How do you practice JG at the 3? Why can't JG just be a good 4? Why is there just a discussion point about playing him a position he hasn't played? 

It's not as simple as just hitting a few buttons and then it automatically works in the game. 

Throw him lobs? What kind of lobs? We have to get in the paint more to be able to do that! I don't see how we would ever be able to penetrate with that group. The spacing is just not there, at all. It's barely, barely there with just 2 of TJD/RT/JG on the court. I can't imagine how bad it would be if all three were there. 

How would you initiate that sort of offense. Personally, I don't think JG would be efficient at all in your scenario and would be worse then RT and TJD on the block, effectiveness wise. 

 

I actually thought Geronimo was quite effective in the mid-range area. Granted, it was not the largest sample size as his playing time was far from consistent, but he handled that 15-17ft area nicely.

I'm obviously reaching here, but if he were in with Race/Trayce, you have a similar trio to that of the '06 Suns, which was highly effective.

JG = Shawn Marion; bouncy with a good shot (JG's form being muuuuuch better, lol)

Race = Boris Diaw

TJD = Amar'e Stoudemire

Add a pace-setting PG and solid shooter, and you have a really nice team.

[btownqb]

1 minute ago, 5fouls said:

To get in the lane, TJD follows through with his pick to free up XJ for the drive.  TJD just does not roll.  At that point, XJ with an edge driving the lane and JG waiting opens up a whole bottle of nasty things IU could do to the defense. 

As far as practice, why can't you look at your upcoming opponent, decide if it's a team you want to try this against, and then practice it for 30 minutes the day before.  Again, you're not doing this the whole game.  And, no, 30 minutes of practice isn't a lot, but teams that run into injuries and foul trouble in the game have the same issue. 

Yes, JG can be a good 4, but that doesn't mean we limit him to solely that role (especially if it causes him to leave).  If all 3 of those guys are back, you have to find ways to get them on the floor together so that everyone gets adequate minutes.   

I would just switch this then. And the second paragraph, because that is not a good use of your time. It's not practical to do that force JG to do things he isn't comfortable doing. 

I don't find your last sentence to be true. I don't think we will be successful at all playing them at the 3. We saw that rodeo with Justin Smith. 

[btownqb]

1 minute ago, MoyeCowbell said:

I actually thought Geronimo was quite effective in the mid-range area. Granted, it was not the largest sample size as his playing time was far from consistent, but he handled that 15-17ft area nicely.

I'm obviously reaching here, but if he were in with Race/Trayce, you have a similar trio to that of the '06 Suns, which was highly effective.

JG = Shawn Marion; bouncy with a good shot (JG's form being muuuuuch better, lol)

Race = Boris Diaw

TJD = Amar'e Stoudemire

Add a pace-setting PG and solid shooter, and you have a really nice team.

Race isn't Boris though! lol ... I enjoyed watching those teams, though! Wow they were good. 

Mid range isn't really where we want to score, though. 

Edited April 8, 2022 by btownqb

[KoB2011]

26 minutes ago, 5fouls said:

We've discussed the difficulty of JG guarding the 3.  Let's flip it the other way.  Could a 6'5" guy adequately guard JG on the blocks.    Give me 5 minutes with TJD, RT, ad JG on the floor together and see what they could do. 

• Place Race outside the arc.  If Race's 3 point shooting continues to improve, teams will have to guard him on the perimeter.    
• Bring TJD up to the FT Line or the extended key and you have the threat of a pick n roll that the defense has to be concerned about.  
• Meanwhile, plant JG on the low block and throw him lobs all day against the shorter player.  

IU needs to get 80+ minutes a game out of that trio.  You don't want that lineup in the whole game.  But, do the above for 5 minutes and I think there is a good chance IU wins that 5 minute stretch more often than not.  Even if someone else ends up shooting it, either Race or JG is going to have a smaller man on him and that opens up the window for offensive rebound opportunities.  

Yes,  very easily. You’re pulling TJD or Race away from the bucket if you’re posting up you’re three, and their defender can easily help down. 

[btownqb]

@5fouls imo it's not economical to spend 2-3 hours of practice time on something you might use 5 mins a game. That is the point I was trying to make in the previous post. 

[IUCrazy2]

6 minutes ago, btownqb said:

Durr plays 5 mins a game, literally just to give TJD a break. This point isn't irrelevant, it's obvious. Everyone is better playing with the All American..... and I can understand the argument that we could be better with JG as the starting 4 over RT this coming year. I see that argument for sure. 

I think people just want to see Geronimo in the rotation more with Trayce and Race and the other starters.  It did seem like quite a bit of the run he got last year was with the second unit.

Honestly I think quite a bit of the criticism goes to that.  I hated it when we had Rob, Galloway, Bates, Geronimo, and Durr in the game at the same time.  Even if it was only for 5 minute stretches, those units almost always led to losing leads or falling behind in games that were back and forth.

[5fouls]

1 minute ago, btownqb said:

I would just switch this then. And the second paragraph, because that is not a good use of your time. It's not practical to do that force JG to do things he isn't comfortable doing. 

I don't find your last sentence to be true. I don't think we will be successful at all playing them at the 3. We saw that rodeo with Justin Smith. 

I'm confused.  Are you saying JG isn't comfortable catching a lob and finishing or getting an offensive rebound?

Bottom line is that if Race and Trayce both come back, and it appears they might, it's very important that Woodson looks for a way to keep JG happy and at IU.

If JG were to enter the portal, he would have 100+ schools contact him TODAY.  No other player on the team, not even TJD would get that much attention (TJD because schools outside the Top 100 would realize they have no shot). 

[5fouls]

4 minutes ago, KoB2011 said:

Yes,  very easily. You’re pulling TJD or Race away from the bucket if you’re posting up you’re three, and their defender can easily help down. 

Again, this assumes that Race is hitting 3's at a 40% clip (which was mentioned he did over the last 16 games).  And, I seriously doubt TJD's defender is going to help except under the most extreme circumstances.  

[5fouls]

4 minutes ago, btownqb said:

@5fouls imo it's not economical to spend 2-3 hours of practice time on something you might use 5 mins a game. That is the point I was trying to make in the previous post. 

I said 30 minutes of practice.  

[btownqb]

5 minutes ago, IUCrazy2 said:

I think people just want to see Geronimo in the rotation more with Trayce and Race and the other starters.  It did seem like quite a bit of the run he got last year was with the second unit.

Honestly I think quite a bit of the criticism goes to that.  I hated it when we had Rob, Galloway, Bates, Geronimo, and Durr in the game at the same time.  Even if it was only for 5 minute stretches, those units almost always led to losing leads or falling behind in games that were back and forth.

Hold on... I thought the lineup that had the issue was the starting lineup? I would challenge you to please go back and watch replays... I don't believe those lineups regularly struggled. I thought it was an asset every bit as much as it was a negative. 

@ Iowa in the first half.. that lineup was bad

vs Minny at home, in the first H, it won us the game

Edited April 8, 2022 by btownqb

[btownqb]

Just now, 5fouls said:

I said 30 minutes of practice.  

Right. but you said in the days leading up to that specific games, right? Just trying to make sure. So I was thinking 30 mins of practice each day for 4-5 days before a game= 2-3 hours.

[btownqb]

5 minutes ago, 5fouls said:

I'm confused.  Are you saying JG isn't comfortable catching a lob and finishing or getting an offensive rebound?

Bottom line is that if Race and Trayce both come back, and it appears they might, it's very important that Woodson looks for a way to keep JG happy and at IU.

If JG were to enter the portal, he would have 100+ schools contact him TODAY.  No other player on the team, not even TJD would get that much attention (TJD because schools outside the Top 100 would realize they have no shot). 

I'm saying.. how are we going to get that lob to begin with.

[IUCrazy2]

3 minutes ago, btownqb said:

Hold on... I thought the lineup that had the issue was the starting lineup? I would challenge you to please go back and watch replays... I don't believe those lineups regularly struggled. I thought it was an asset every bit as much as it was a negative. 

@ Iowa in the first half.. that lineup was bad

vs Minny at home, in the first H, it won us the game

The starting lineup was a problem because Stewart and Kopp did not do what they were brought here to do on a regular enough basis.  Then for various reasons the guys on the bench could not unseat them.

I just know I gave an ugh more often than not when the "second platoon" was on the court.  I rarely want to see guys #6-10 on the court together at the same time.  We saw that for several minutes every game.

[5fouls]

2 minutes ago, btownqb said:

I'm saying.. how are we going to get that lob to begin with.

TJD sets a pick, XJ gets a half step on his defender.  JG's defender has to decide to step in and stop XJ's drive or stay with JG.  Good things happen either way.  And, even if XJ misses a layup, JG is positioned for the offensive board against a shorter player.  

[btownqb]

1 minute ago, IUCrazy2 said:

The starting lineup was a problem because Stewart and Kopp did not do what they were brought here to do on a regular enough basis.  Then for various reasons the guys on the bench could not unseat them.

I just know I gave an ugh more often than not when the "second platoon" was on the court.  I rarely want to see guys #6-10 on the court together at the same time.  We saw that for several minutes every game.

imo.. you're misremembering the length those guys truly played together and the overall effectiveness. imo you are remembering the bad. 

I said imo twice. That entire post was not meant to sound disrespectful.  

[BobSaccamanno]

4 hours ago, IUFLA said:

I don't know...

"The Breakfast Club" vs "The Godfather"? 😉

I’m going to make you an offer you can’t refuse.  I like the Breakfast Club a lot.  But Godfather 1 and 2 are at the top for me.   I’d probably take 2 over 1 just because of where the story arc was.  But man, Sonny and the toll booth the first time I saw it..  and the Michael scene in the restaurant.  Holy smokes that was riveting.  

[5 championships]

1 hour ago, btownqb said:

So... in your mind Mike Woodson purposely played Kopp at the 3 over JG because of why? If it was THAT obvious. If he was better on the perimeter, he would have shown that. He didn't. 

 

Mike Woodson played Kopp because he is extremely loyal and promised Kopp a starting spot if he transferred there. In my opinion Leal is better than Kopp and got screwed as well.

Kopp is so bad. Honestly don’t know how you defend him lol

Edited April 8, 2022 by 5 championships

[Billingsley99]

4 minutes ago, btownqb said:

I'm saying.. how are we going to get that lob to begin with.

Lots of easy ways to get a lob from the wing. Run PNR X and TJD, wave strong side guard Thru, to get a staggered screen on weak side after race sets screen the guard screens JG for the basket cut depending o. If X or TJD has the ball determines either Hi side lob or baseline lob

Dribble hand off from X to JG fake the handoff hit JG man on a back pick from the top for LOB  after TJD sets the back Pick roll him toward strong side short corner race sets screen on backside bringing shooter to the top.

[btownqb]

Just now, 5 championships said:

Mike Woodson played Kopp because he is extremely loyal and promised Kopp a starting spot if he transferred there. In my opinion Leal is better than Kopp and got screwed as well

Dear god. That is not what happened. Cmon man. 

[btownqb]

1 minute ago, Billingsley99 said:

Lots of easy ways to get a lob from the wing. Run PNR X and TJD, wave strong side guard Thru, to get a staggered screen on weak side after race sets screen the guard screens JG for the basket cut depending o. If X or TJD has the ball determines either Hi side lob or baseline lob

Dribble hand off from X to JG fake the handoff hit JG man on a back pick from the top for LOB  after TJD sets the back Pick roll him toward strong side short corner race sets screen on backside bringing shooter to the top.

in this scenario he wasn't on the wing though. He was weak short corner. 

And I agree, all of that could work, once. It isn't sustainable as consistent offense though because everything is so predicated on XJ's ability to dribble drive. Which is he very solid at ... but we have to have more dudes that can help him with that stuff-- JHS/TG/Bates-- rather then someone like JG at the 3, who has not shown the ability to create for others. 

Just my preference-- TJD at the 5, whoever at the 4, 3 guards.... def reb/forced TO and run. I hate running sets. Get a ball screen, create a close out and lets gooooo. More skilled players on the court, consistently. 

[BobSaccamanno]

I don’t think Kopp is as bad as conventional wisdom on this board says for some reason.  He shot fine.  Not great.  But he hit some big shots.  When we finally clicked late, he went out to the corner and we improved drastically with spacing on offense.   We started winning big games which had been elusive.  I don’t think you can discount that.  We played well finally and Kopp was in the middle of it.   Kopp is a useful player IMO.   

There was a period earlier in the season where they were trying to find Kopp’s role and some people won’t let that go.  IMO if the season ended like that, he wouldn’t be back.  But the reality is, he clicked and found a role later in the season and the staff has a plan for him in view of all that.   Things evolved and he got better.  

He is a willing defender too.  Not great but he puts forth effort.  I think he has a solid role next year.  

Edited April 8, 2022 by BobSaccamanno