Coronavirus

[dgambill]

2 hours ago, Reacher said:

Natural immunity superior to the vaccines says 92 studies. Here's why-

https://brownstone.org/articles/the-politicization-of-immunology/

https://brownstone.org/articles/79-research-studies-affirm-naturally-acquired-immunity-to-covid-19-documented-linked-and-quoted/

Very informative. Thank you for the articles.

[hoosier_exotics]

https://twitter.com/RealMattCouch/status/1453108850916302855?t=6idWNWfdYgF5QzUlStndSw&s=19

 

No friggen way would I be giving my young kids the jab. Let this asshole use his grandkids to figure out how safe it is.

Edited October 27, 2021 by hoosier_exotics

[IUFLA]

13 minutes ago, hoosier_exotics said:

https://twitter.com/RealMattCouch/status/1453108850916302855?t=6idWNWfdYgF5QzUlStndSw&s=19

 

No friggen way would I be giving my young kids the jab. Let this asshole use his grandkids to out how safe it is.

Seriously?

"Dr. Ruben on the FDA panel: 'We're never gonna learn about how safe the vaccine is until we start giving it. That's the way it goes.'"

That certainly inspires my confidence...

I'm with you @hoosier_exotics... 

[mrflynn03]

2 hours ago, hoosier_exotics said:

https://twitter.com/RealMattCouch/status/1453108850916302855?t=6idWNWfdYgF5QzUlStndSw&s=19

 

No friggen way would I be giving my young kids the jab. Let this asshole use his grandkids to figure out how safe it is.

And people wonder why the unvaccininated haven't taken it yet. 

I do not and have never trusted these people 

[NotIThatLives]

This was the agenda the entire time.  Now it is beyond blatantly obvious, only truth deniers can deny that.  

I probably mentioned somewhere in these 300 pages that the vaccine industry is a 55 billion dollar industry.  It was recently mentioned of Pfizer's covid profits alone.  The stuff still coming out about the disgraced Fauci.  

Someone stop the insanity.  If you are sick stay home.  

[dgambill]

I'm getting pretty sick of this stuff. If they start mandating the children there is going to be major reprocussions. We have tons of data to show this is not necessary for small children unless they have some type of autoimmune deficiency. 

https://www.aap.org/en/pages/2019-novel-coronavirus-covid-19-infections/children-and-covid-19-state-level-data-report/

Summary of Findings (data available as of 10/21/21) :

Cumulative Number of Child COVID-19 Cases*

• 6,295,648 total child COVID-19 cases reported, and children represented 16.5% (6,295,648/38,080,641) of all cases
• Overall rate: 8,364 cases per 100,000 children in the population

Change in Child COVID-19 Cases*

• 117,702 child COVID-19 cases were reported the past week from 10/14/21-10/21/21 (6,177,946 to 6,295,648) and children represented 25.1% (117,702/469,078) of the weekly reported cases
• Over two weeks, 10/7/21-10/21/21, there was a 4% increase in the cumulated number of child COVID-19 cases since the beginning of the pandemic (248,277 cases added (6,047,371 to 6,295,648))

Testing (11 states reported)*^{^}

• Among states reporting, children made up between 11.7%-22.4% of total cumulated state tests, and between 5.3%-13.6% of children tested were tested positive

Hospitalizations (24 states and NYC reported)*

• Among states reporting, children ranged from 1.6%-4.3% of their total cumulated hospitalizations, and 0.1%-2.0% of all their child COVID-19 cases resulted in hospitalization

Mortality (45 states, NYC, PR and GU reported)*

• Among states reporting, children were 0.00%-0.26% of all COVID-19 deaths, and 7 states reported zero child deaths
• In states reporting, 0.00%-0.03% of all child COVID-19 cases resulted in death

[dgambill]

3 hours ago, hoosier_exotics said:

https://twitter.com/RealMattCouch/status/1453108850916302855?t=6idWNWfdYgF5QzUlStndSw&s=19

 

No friggen way would I be giving my young kids the jab. Let this asshole use his grandkids to figure out how safe it is.

Papa Bear is getting pretty upset. Ever heard the expression don't poke the bear?? Between the govt wanting to try to raise my kids with the crap indoctrination going on in the schools and them thinking the Govt should be choosing what they teach and not the parents and if they go down this road....I've been upset but kept my cool...you go after my cubs and I'm not sure I will be so willing to go along to get along anymore.

 

[hoosier_exotics]

2 minutes ago, dgambill said:

Papa Bear is getting pretty upset. Ever heard the expression don't poke the bear?? Between the govt wanting to try to raise my kids with the crap indoctrination going on in the schools and them thinking the Govt should be choosing what they teach and not the parents and if they go down this road....I've been upset but kept my cool...you go after my cubs and I'm not sure I will be so willing to go along to get along anymore.

 

Yup! It's been treading heavy in the BS pool for awhile now. This will be a deal breaker for a large portion of the world, and rightly so

[NotIThatLives]

What for it.  Shockingly, the CDC recommends a 2nd booster for some immunocompromised.  This will never stop.  This is a money making monster industry.  

[dgambill]

20 minutes ago, NotIThatLives said:

What for it.  Shockingly, the CDC recommends a 2nd booster for some immunocompromised.  This will never stop.  This is a money making monster industry.  

Every 6 months....until you get so many shots that your arm looks like a junkie's. Only a matter of time they put it in your tap water lol.

Edited October 27, 2021 by dgambill

[5fouls]

Reality falls somewhere in between.  But, as is common these days, it seems that both sides are running as far away from the middle as possible.

Yes, I understand that their are significant financial factors in play.  At the same time, i can study the trend in hospitalizations and deaths and understand that the average age of those two things as a percentage continues to get younger because they are less vaccinated.

I understand people want the freedom of choice.  But, that goes both ways.  I'm thankful I had the opportunity to get the initial shot, and am anxiously waiting for the opportunity to get a booster.  At the same time, it frustrates me that other things are not as they were pre-pandemic.  I feel I'm doing my part to help slow/stop the spread.

There are a lot of people on both sides that do things, not because of what they personally believe, but because of who tells them what they should believe.

I personally think vaccinations have, and will continue to make, things better than they otherwise would.  My concern is that we will never achieve what we could accomplish fighting this thing because we cant seem to find common ground to help us do it.

[FKIM01]

9 hours ago, Reacher said:

Natural immunity superior to the vaccines says 92 studies. Here's why-

https://brownstone.org/articles/the-politicization-of-immunology/

https://brownstone.org/articles/79-research-studies-affirm-naturally-acquired-immunity-to-covid-19-documented-linked-and-quoted/

Natural immunity better than vaccinated immunity...who would have thunk it?

I can only imagine how frustrating this is for immunologists watching our politicians turn immunology science upside down and pretend that the vaccine creates stronger immunity.

Personally, I took the vaccine to get a "headstart" on COVID if I contracted it or (hopefully) prevent COVID from getting any foothold on me.  Never did I think it was some magic bullet that provided the greatest level of protection.  Immunology 101 is pretty clear that natural immunity is better than vaccination immunity.  I simply saw how bad this virus was and wanted to lessen it's effects by any means possible.  For that part, it did it's job and when I actually got COVID, it was a pretty mild case.  For those people who went through hell and back with full-blown COVID, I don't understand why anyone thinks they don't now have strong immunity.  I can't point to a single virus where it's been proven that vaccinated immunity is greater than natural immunity and yet, our moronic leaders, who preach "follow the science" have been absolutely ignoring the science here.

No wonder people don't believe anything our leaders say.

[FKIM01]

1 hour ago, 5fouls said:

Reality falls somewhere in between.  But, as is common these days, it seems that both sides are running as far away from the middle as possible.

Yes, I understand that their are significant financial factors in play.  At the same time, i can study the trend in hospitalizations and deaths and understand that the average age of those two things as a percentage continues to get younger because they are less vaccinated.

I understand people want the freedom of choice.  But, that goes both ways.  I'm thankful I had the opportunity to get the initial shot, and am anxiously waiting for the opportunity to get a booster.  At the same time, it frustrates me that other things are not as they were pre-pandemic.  I feel I'm doing my part to help slow/stop the spread.

There are a lot of people on both sides that do things, not because of what they personally believe, but because of who tells them what they should believe.

I personally think vaccinations have, and will continue to make, things better than they otherwise would.  My concern is that we will never achieve what we could accomplish fighting this thing because we cant seem to find common ground to help us do it.

I'm on the fence about a booster since I had the shot and subsequently got a mild case of COVID.  For me, the vaccine accomplished it's goal, but I view my subsequent case of COVID as a "natural" booster.  Unless the evidence changes, I won't get a booster this year.

I hear what you are saying, but there are frustrations on both sides of the argument.  The pro-vaccine frustration comes from people saying the vaccine is useless or even counterproductive.  The pro-natural immunity frustration comes from people saying that natural immunity is no good or even inferior to vaccine-induced immunity.  That's just stupid and runs completely counter to everything I've ever read about immunology (which was a decent amount before I lost interest in a career in medicine and changed my major).

The truth, as you said, is in the middle.  I 100% understand people who have recovered from COVID not wanting a vaccination.  It's just a stupid political mandate that makes no scientific sense.  Allow those folks who have already had COVID to show proof of antibodies and count that as (at least as) good as proof of vaccination.

[5fouls]

1 hour ago, FKIM01 said:

I'm on the fence about a booster since I had the shot and subsequently got a mild case of COVID.  For me, the vaccine accomplished it's goal, but I view my subsequent case of COVID as a "natural" booster.  Unless the evidence changes, I won't get a booster this year.

I hear what you are saying, but there are frustrations on both sides of the argument.  The pro-vaccine frustration comes from people saying the vaccine is useless or even counterproductive.  The pro-natural immunity frustration comes from people saying that natural immunity is no good or even inferior to vaccine-induced immunity.  That's just stupid and runs completely counter to everything I've ever read about immunology (which was a decent amount before I lost interest in a career in medicine and changed my major).

The truth, as you said, is in the middle.  I 100% understand people who have recovered from COVID not wanting a vaccination.  It's just a stupid political mandate that makes no scientific sense.  Allow those folks who have already had COVID to show proof of antibodies and count that as (at least as) good as proof of vaccination.

It's okay to believe natural immunity is better than the vaccine.  I'm not smart enough to know either way.  But, there are tens of thousands of people alive today that would not be if they had not been vaccinated.  The number of people that have died directly from receiving the vaccine is less than 50.  The vaccine has done it's job, so I don't understand the continuous attempt to degrade it.  

If you win $1,000,000 playing the lottery or in a casino, who the F#@$ cares which way it was won.  Be thankful you had both options.  But, one thing that would be hard to argue is that winning a million in both places gives you twice the amount of money.   

It doesn't have to be either/or.  Neither outcome is optimal if one of the options is totally disregarded,  

 

[Joe_Hoopsier]

This will undoubtedly piss people off, but it is a higher level question. 

This entire covid exercise has been about keeping "ME" (the individual) alive, not about what is best for the substantiation of the human race. ( I get it, we preach but we don't really practice). 

There are a multitude more people who have naturally fought this thing off than have died from it. Per today's date 740,718 of 330-360 million US have died from it (depending on the US count you subscribe to). Will the species be better off with the natural survival people, or the people who require technology to keep them alive?

This isn't meant to be morbid, but you can't outrun mother nature, I don't care who you are. None of these vaccines/ no vaccines change the inevitable, it may possibly only prolong it... for a bit.

If we are really interested in Global climate for the "species" sake and not the individual, Then shouldn't the natural human immune system and evolution need to be the focus?

I know I know, This isn't popular. Myself, I'm going to go rub some dirt on it, be at peace with myself, and live free..... until I don't.      

[hoosier_exotics]

38 minutes ago, Joe_Hoopsier said:

This will undoubtedly piss people off, but it is a higher level question. 

This entire covid exercise has been about keeping "ME" (the individual) alive, not about what is best for the substantiation of the human race. ( I get it, we preach but we don't really practice). 

There are a multitude more people who have naturally fought this thing off than have died from it. Per today's date 740,718 of 330-360 million US have died from it (depending on the US count you subscribe to). Will the species be better off with the natural survival people, or the people who require technology to keep them alive?

This isn't meant to be morbid, but you can't outrun mother nature, I don't care who you are. None of these vaccines/ no vaccines change the inevitable, it may possibly only prolong it... for a bit.

If we are really interested in Global climate for the "species" sake and not the individual, Then shouldn't the natural human immune system and evolution need to be the focus?

I know I know, This isn't popular. Myself, I'm going to go rub some dirt on it, be at peace with myself, and live free..... until I don't.      

I'm with you.

Roughly 9 million people a year die from starvation. That to me is a true tragedy.  I think its time to cut the shit, get back to work, and fix some of the more pressing issues at hand. If the world governments really cared about deaths and children,  we would have more food and less abortions.  They have their shot, thats great! Take it, don't fear the unvaccinated, work together and get this world rolling again.

[FKIM01]

1 hour ago, 5fouls said:

 If you win $1,000,000 playing the lottery or in a casino, who the F#@$ cares which way it was won.  Be thankful you had both options.  But, one thing that would be hard to argue is that winning a million in both places gives you twice the amount of money.   

At least one immunologist I heard interviewed awhile back (who appeared very frustrated) likened getting the vaccine after having COVID to running your car through a touchless after a full detail.  In his view at least (and he is an immunologist), getting the vaccine after COVID was entirely worthless...definitely does not make you twice as immune.

[Reacher]

15 hours ago, 5fouls said:

Reality falls somewhere in between.  But, as is common these days, it seems that both sides are running as far away from the middle as possible.

Yes, I understand that their are significant financial factors in play.  At the same time, i can study the trend in hospitalizations and deaths and understand that the average age of those two things as a percentage continues to get younger because they are less vaccinated.

I understand people want the freedom of choice.  But, that goes both ways.  I'm thankful I had the opportunity to get the initial shot, and am anxiously waiting for the opportunity to get a booster.  At the same time, it frustrates me that other things are not as they were pre-pandemic.  I feel I'm doing my part to help slow/stop the spread.

There are a lot of people on both sides that do things, not because of what they personally believe, but because of who tells them what they should believe.

I personally think vaccinations have, and will continue to make, things better than they otherwise would.  My concern is that we will never achieve what we could accomplish fighting this thing because we cant seem to find common ground to help us do it.

I am with you in thinking adults who have no natural antibodies generally benefit from the vaccine. The issue I constantly bring up is that natural immunity does count and science is now pretty overwhelming in saying natural immunity is broader and longer lasting than vaccines. Why should those people, or anyone for that matter, be forced to take a vaccine? 

Why are vaccine side effects being downplayed/altered and even censored? That does not help the science. It is not just a US thing. Israel has a worse side effect reporting system than we do. By eliminating any negative info, a false narrative is created. Vaccines do have risks, even if minimal. I see no benefit in vaccinating healthy children who as @dgambill pointed out are not dying from this.

Why do we have these mandates? I have been in TN for a week and feel like I traveled to another world compared to IL. There is virtually no mask wearing. Yet Covid is not running rampant there.  FL and TN prove people and businesses can thrive while still allowing freedom and choice. FL now has the lowest % of new cases in the country yet had minimal restrictions. 

Personally, I'm holding off on a booster until I see more data. If you want one, great. I'd consider a different manufacturer than your original one. Please understand that should be an individual decision. We don't mandate against smoking, and a multitude of other unhealthy behaviors which could be argued are more detrimental to society than Covid. Rules and past precedent are being changed for this virus. Why? If are leaders don't take this seriously, why should we? If members of congress have access to treatments (ivermectin as an example) why shouldn't we? 

It's about time we got rid of the double standards, promoted transparency and actually followed the science. 

Rant over. 

 

Edited October 28, 2021 by Reacher

[dgambill]

14 hours ago, 5fouls said:

It's okay to believe natural immunity is better than the vaccine.  I'm not smart enough to know either way.  But, there are tens of thousands of people alive today that would not be if they had not been vaccinated.  The number of people that have died directly from receiving the vaccine is less than 50.  The vaccine has done it's job, so I don't understand the continuous attempt to degrade it.  

If you win $1,000,000 playing the lottery or in a casino, who the F#@$ cares which way it was won.  Be thankful you had both options.  But, one thing that would be hard to argue is that winning a million in both places gives you twice the amount of money.   

It doesn't have to be either/or.  Neither outcome is optimal if one of the options is totally disregarded,  

 

Your casino arguement is actually quite good. And I agree...I am tremendously grateful for the vaccine. I've got two wonderful healthy in laws and while we don't know if they've ever been exposed I don't wish to find out what would have happened otherwise. Funny enough my wife's 99 year old grandmother got Covid in the nursing home before the vaccine and yet was never hospitalized. I mean wow talk about lucky although she is very healthy for her age I'd say. All that said there are many many people that have been exposed to covid already or in a sub group of people that are young and in good health that aren't high risk for hospitalization or death. I don't think there is a single person here saying NO ONE should get the vaccine....just no one should be FORCED to get the vaccine to have a job or shop or interact in society. Your analogy of the casino/lottery are good....but the whole point there is people also shouldn't be forced to play either one. First off they have something to lose. Why force them to risk something when they have determined the chances of winning don't outweigh the chances of losing what they are betting. Second off lot's of people don't trust the people running the games/system that the numbers and outcomes are transparent and honest. Finally there are people on moral/religous grounds that think gambling is wrong and would never participate in such a thing...so your analogy is very good...and in there lies the rub...it isn't that those choosing to get their winning lottery ticket or go to the casino is are being stopped by those choosing not to. They are very happy for them....it's when you force people to partake that is the issue....and it looks more evident now then ever that they want to  force their children into this game...who have basically NOTHING to win. No million dollars....there are no UPSIDES for the avg child....only possible negative outcomes...and that would be a terrible miscalculation on the govts part to try to enforce.

In summary...happy to have the vaccines (along with all the other theraputic advances since the vaccine is just another theraputic albeit one taken in advance), looking forward to more advances in vaccines and therapies, not happy to see people forced into getting vaccinated or losing their jobs, and would be furious if they try to force my child into a similar mandate.

Edited October 28, 2021 by dgambill

[dgambill]

15 hours ago, FKIM01 said:

I'm on the fence about a booster since I had the shot and subsequently got a mild case of COVID.  For me, the vaccine accomplished it's goal, but I view my subsequent case of COVID as a "natural" booster.  Unless the evidence changes, I won't get a booster this year.

I hear what you are saying, but there are frustrations on both sides of the argument.  The pro-vaccine frustration comes from people saying the vaccine is useless or even counterproductive.  The pro-natural immunity frustration comes from people saying that natural immunity is no good or even inferior to vaccine-induced immunity.  That's just stupid and runs completely counter to everything I've ever read about immunology (which was a decent amount before I lost interest in a career in medicine and changed my major).

The truth, as you said, is in the middle.  I 100% understand people who have recovered from COVID not wanting a vaccination.  It's just a stupid political mandate that makes no scientific sense.  Allow those folks who have already had COVID to show proof of antibodies and count that as (at least as) good as proof of vaccination.

Not a doctor or trying to tell you what to do but several several pages back I linked an article that quoted several doctors and they said that it can be counter productive in some cases for people to get boosters...especially those that have had covid already. The immune system can basically be worn down and actually harmed/weakened by continued overstimulation done by boosters. Basically similar to the law of diminishing returns...but even worse in this case it isn't just getting little return but actually hurting the bodies ability to actually fight illness and can lead to other issues. I simply would be very cognizant of those possibilities when weighing the decision of getting further shots in a situation where like you (vaccinated and had covid). Of course that decision will lie with you...as it should.

[Reacher]

33 minutes ago, dgambill said:

Your casino arguement is actually quite good. And I agree...I am tremendously grateful for the vaccine. I've got two wonderful healthy in laws and while we don't know if they've ever been exposed I don't wish to find out what would have happened otherwise. Funny enough my wife's 99 year old grandmother got Covid in the nursing home before the vaccine and yet was never hospitalized. I mean wow talk about lucky although she is very healthy for her age I'd say. All that said there are many many people that have been exposed to covid already or in a sub group of people that are young and in good health that aren't high risk for hospitalization or death. I don't think there is a single person here saying NO ONE should get the vaccine....just no one should be FORCED to get the vaccine to have a job or shop or interact in society. Your analogy of the casino/lottery are good....but the whole point there is people also shouldn't be forced to play either one. First off they have something to lose. Why force them to risk something when they have determined the chances of winning don't outweigh the chances of losing what they are betting. Second off lot's of people don't trust the people running the games/system that the numbers and outcomes are transparent and honest. Finally there are people on moral/religous grounds that think gambling is wrong and would never participate in such a thing...so your analogy is very good...and in there lies the rub...it isn't that those choosing to get their winning lottery ticket or go to the casino is are being stopped by those choosing not to. They are very happy for them....it's when you force people to partake that is the issue....and it looks more evident now then ever that they want to  force their children into this game...who have basically NOTHING to win. No million dollars....there are no UPSIDES for the avg child....only possible negative outcomes...and that would be a terrible miscalculation on the govts part to try to enforce.

In summary...happy to have the vaccines (along with all the other theraputic advances since the vaccine is just another theraputic albeit one taken in advance), looking forward to more advances in vaccines and therapies, not happy to see people forced into getting vaccinated or losing their jobs, and would be furious if they try to force my child into a similar mandate.

Very well said. My thoughts exactly. 

[dgambill]

13 hours ago, Joe_Hoopsier said:

This will undoubtedly piss people off, but it is a higher level question. 

This entire covid exercise has been about keeping "ME" (the individual) alive, not about what is best for the substantiation of the human race. ( I get it, we preach but we don't really practice). 

There are a multitude more people who have naturally fought this thing off than have died from it. Per today's date 740,718 of 330-360 million US have died from it (depending on the US count you subscribe to). Will the species be better off with the natural survival people, or the people who require technology to keep them alive?

This isn't meant to be morbid, but you can't outrun mother nature, I don't care who you are. None of these vaccines/ no vaccines change the inevitable, it may possibly only prolong it... for a bit.

If we are really interested in Global climate for the "species" sake and not the individual, Then shouldn't the natural human immune system and evolution need to be the focus?

I know I know, This isn't popular. Myself, I'm going to go rub some dirt on it, be at peace with myself, and live free..... until I don't.      

Well...that is a very different take on it. I stayed out of this thread for a long time until basically when the mandates started coming around etc and then it kind of took on a life of its own. What you are saying is basically survival of the fittest or something along those lines. While in general I've spent most of my time focused on defending people's decision not to get vaccinated if they so choose and not be an outcast in society. And also in supporting those that have developed a natural immunity or immune response to be proper (since immunity would imply not be able to get it again which neither those that have been vaccinated nor had covid before can claim) however I am in support of this vaccine. Let's just say I'm an advocate for life. To me it is precious and deserves to be saved in almost any instance. It is very possible and extremely likely especially those in the nursing homes and those suffering from extreme comorbidities are very likely to die one way or another. However, every moment is precious, every life has importance and meaning...so I am all for the measures to prolong and save as many lives possible. So having the vaccines to prolong those that need them is a great thing. We do get into a grey area where it isn't clear for some people though on how productive and beneficial the vaccine is to their health/especially long term and in there lies the million dollar question of vaccination for some...and all I can say is that imo we should error on the side of choice for those individuals as opposed to taking away their personal freedoms to force on them something some believe to be the truth or what's best when certainly it's not a settled debate. As far as the global climate debate, over population etc...those topics are up for debate for sure in what methods are for the greater good of society. Big enough topics and arguements on either side to certainly have their own thread for sure.

[tdhoosier]

15 hours ago, Joe_Hoopsier said:

There are a multitude more people who have naturally fought this thing off than have died from it. Per today's date 740,718 of 330-360 million US have died from it (depending on the US count you subscribe to). Will the species be better off with the natural survival people, or the people who require technology to keep them alive?

I know you've said this in jest (kind of?), but I guess I never understand then need to sugar coat the virus in this fashion because it's very narrow in scope. Most viruses have a high survival rate - it doesn't minimize the actual virus though. From the beginning, many said (even on this board) that there's no way this virus will kill as many as the Spanish Flu (it did), or it'd even come close to killing a million people nationally (we're getting there, and most likely would've surpassed that if it weren't for the fast tracking of the vaccines). 

But again, this is only using deaths as an indicator when the destruction caused in the wake of COVID also includes long-term health effects, economic chaos and the over-whelming of our healthcare system.

I also see this 'sugar coating' used in comparing COVID to more fatal diseases and/or epidemics. But in many cases something like heart disease has been with us for a long time and our healthcare system has adapted to the increase in cases and we've gotten pretty damn good at treating it. It's like keeping a swimming pool at 80% capacity to keep the water level at a certain mark. If you notice the demand is increasing slowly overtime, you expand the pool. BUT if all the sudden you have thousands of people jump into a pool at 80% capacity, it's gong to overflow and overwhelm the lifeguards. 

The point being, there are very real short and longterm consequences to the virus, even if 'a lot of people recover from it' or even if 'poverty kills more people worldwide'. These consequences domino down and effect us (even the healthy) in a multitude of ways. Heck, we complain about these consequences everyday on this thread because they are effecting our lives to various degrees.

In addition to sickness and death, a sudden pandemic is a shock to the systems we have in place.

16 hours ago, Joe_Hoopsier said:

This isn't meant to be morbid, but you can't outrun mother nature, I don't care who you are. None of these vaccines/ no vaccines change the inevitable, it may possibly only prolong it... for a bit.

If we are really interested in Global climate for the "species" sake and not the individual, Then shouldn't the natural human immune system and evolution need to be the focus?

But we JUST DID outrun mother nature and many vaccines have changed the supposed 'inevitable'. Polio? Measles? If you're insinuating to have the virus kill off the unhealthy in an effort to strengthen our overall immunity, then fine, but then be prepared to deal with dominos that fall as a result because it won't just be deaths and the aftermath will much longer to recover from (as a a society). For example, if you think these supply chain issues are bad now, how do you think they'd be if we let COVID just run unhindered and rampant across the globe?

By that rationale we shouldn't use modern engineering to prevent earthquakes from crumbling buildings. Sure, we aren't going to prevent mother nature from having earthquakes, but we can minimize the damage.

I'm not insinuating that people shouldn't get healthier and strengthen their immune systems, but this is not a strategy by any means, nor is it realistic. We have one lifetime on this Earth (perhaps a few more if you're Buddhist), and call me selfish, but I'd rather not spend it "cleansing the species" and living through the devastating aftermath that'd result from such a strategy. I award you zero points for that insinuation. 😆  (Though, I still appreciate you Joe!)

 

[Lostin76]

I find it odd that people are up in arms about the testing on animals, yet no mention of the HUGE cottage industry of unnecessary animal testing by cosmetics and household goods companies that have been going on for decades. But, sure since we can bash Fauci with it, let’s suddenly get outraged. 

For over 25 years I have boycotted companies that test on animals. It was hard at first, but getting much easier. 

As far as COVID goes, it’s nice to see the cases decreasing. 

And this will make @Reacher happy, the NIH now wants to add a huge number of clinical trials to our long-COVID grant. Everything seems to be on the table, including studying stuff like Vitamin D exposure. Initially this was just supposed to uncover the extent and types of symptoms related to long-COVID, but it keeps expanding. This is now the largest grant that NIH has ever awarded to a single institution - and that’s before they add the clinical trial piece. 

[Joe_Hoopsier]

26 minutes ago, tdhoosier said:

I know you've said this in jest (kind of?), but I guess I never understand then need to sugar coat the virus in this fashion because it's very narrow in scope. Most viruses have a high survival rate - it doesn't minimize the actual virus though. From the beginning, many said (even on this board) that there's no way this virus will kill as many as the Spanish Flu (it did), or it'd even come close to killing a million people nationally (we're getting there, and most likely would've surpassed that if it weren't for the fast tracking of the vaccines). 

But again, this is only using deaths as an indicator when the destruction caused in the wake of COVID also includes long-term health effects, economic chaos and the over-whelming of our healthcare system.

I also see this 'sugar coating' used in comparing COVID to more fatal diseases and/or epidemics. But in many cases something like heart disease has been with us for a long time and our healthcare system has adapted to the increase in cases and we've gotten pretty damn good at treating it. It's like keeping a swimming pool at 80% capacity to keep the water level at a certain mark. If you notice the demand is increasing slowly overtime, you expand the pool. BUT if all the sudden you have thousands of people jump into a pool at 80% capacity, it's gong to overflow and overwhelm the lifeguards. 

The point being, there are very real short and longterm consequences to the virus, even if 'a lot of people recover from it' or even if 'poverty kills more people worldwide'. These consequences domino down and effect us (even the healthy) in a multitude of ways. Heck, we complain about these consequences everyday on this thread because they are effecting our lives to various degrees.

In addition to sickness and death, a sudden pandemic is a shock to the systems we have in place.

But we JUST DID outrun mother nature and many vaccines have changed the supposed 'inevitable'. Polio? Measles? If you're insinuating to have the virus kill off the unhealthy in an effort to strengthen our overall immunity, then fine, but then be prepared to deal with dominos that fall as a result because it won't just be deaths and the aftermath will much longer to recover from (as a a society). For example, if you think these supply chain issues are bad now, how do you think they'd be if we let COVID just run unhindered and rampant across the globe?

By that rationale we shouldn't use modern engineering to prevent earthquakes from crumbling buildings. Sure, we aren't going to prevent mother nature from having earthquakes, but we can minimize the damage.

I'm not insinuating that people shouldn't get healthier and strengthen their immune systems, but this is not a strategy by any means, nor is it realistic. We have one lifetime on this Earth (perhaps a few more if you're Buddhist), and call me selfish, but I'd rather not spend it "cleansing the species" and living through the devastating aftermath that'd result from such a strategy. I award you zero points for that insinuation. 😆  (Though, I still appreciate you Joe!)

 

Thank for all the effort in this reply. I think what is going though my head and I will never be able to adequately convey, is; There are thought processes that are society focused and then there are species focused thought. Do we weaken the species with vaccines by making our lives (eventually, way down the road) more and more dependent on them for the "short term" gain? I know this sounds morbid but I'd rather think if it as more of a debate than a culling of people, this is only theory purposed. And No, we have not out ran Mother Nature, we have prolonged the inevitable, again just as a debate not death panels. 

Anyway, that is just a little thought, circling in a small dark crevasse in the back of my mind. Just to be clear, I am not Anti Vaxx.