Coronavirus

[HoosierFaithful]

Watch this video around 4:20 

https://www.cnn.com/videos/health/2020/07/02/texas-hospital-crowded-coronavirus-marquez-pkg-newday-vpx.cnn

[Reacher]

More TX news-

"leaders of several major hospitals in Houston this week urged the public to remain calm, suggesting that the extent of the outbreak has been overstated. 

At a virtual press conference on Thursday, the chief executives of Houston Methodist, Memorial Hermann Health System, St. Luke’s Health, and Texas Children’s hospitals stated that their hospitals are well-prepared to handle an even greater increase in patients than that which has emerged over the past few weeks. 

The number of hospitalizations are "being misinterpreted," said Houston Methodist CEO Marc Boom, "and, quite frankly, we’re concerned that there is a level of alarm in the community that is unwarranted right now."

"We do have the capacity to care for many more patients, and have lots of fluidity and ability to manage," Boom said.

He pointed out that his hospital one year ago was at 95% ICU capacity, similar to the numbers the hospital is seeing today. "It is completely normal for us to have ICU capacities that run in the 80s and 90s," he said. "That's how all hospitals operate." 

He noted that around 25% of ICU patients are COVID-19-positive. But the hospital "[has] many levers in our ability to adjust our ICU," he said, claiming that the hospital capacity regularly reported by the media is "base" capacity rather than surge capacity. 

Texas Children's Hospital CEO Mark Wallace added that his facility has "a lot of capacity."

"We have the ability to take care of all of the Houstonians that need a critical care environment, that need to be operated on, or acute care," Wallace said.

"There is not a scenario, in my opinion, where the demand for our beds ... would eclipse our capability," he continued. "I cannot imagine that. I just cannot."

https://justthenews.com/politics-policy/coronavirus/texas-government-counting-every-covid-positive-hospital-case

 

Looks like the TX hospital CEO says the level of alarm is unwarranted. Let's all please calm down.

[Reacher]

51 minutes ago, tdhoosier said:

Yes, I did read. You wrote: 

"Today the curve has been flattened, deaths are dropping and it's more of a local health emergency in Select places"

I read that as three separate points. Because deaths can't drop and remain flat at the same time (a contradiction between point 1 and 2), I assumed you meant the case curve was flattening. Not sure what other curve you'd be referring to or how else I was supposed to take it. If that's not what you meant, then so be it, but that's the reason I posted those graphs.

I'm not sure how those graphs are misleading. They are from the NY Times and pretty much all other news organizations are reporting the same exact numbers (within a few hundred cases, depending on when they are updated). They are just straight up numbers. The 'deaths' graph you and @mrflynn03 posted is the same the NY Times is posting and you use it to justify dropping deaths rate. What's the difference?  I don't think that graph is wrong or misleading because I think the death rate will rise in the next week or two. 

Do I think there are twice as many cases? Well, it doesn't add up to that yet, but I do think we'll reach that number soon. Without measures taken the virus will reproduce exponentially because that's what viruses do. You can keep talking about increased testing as much as you want, but how many of those tests were for symptomatic people? Do you have numbers for that? I have taken a precautionary test because I had to get an ablation last month. My wife had to take a precautionary test because she had to get an endoscopy a few weeks ago. If somebody tests positive for COVID many companies are requiring 2 negative test before returning to work. Some companies are requiring a negative test after mandatory quarantines if you've come into contact with a proven positive. Do we have more cases because of these additional tests?  My point is that we can keep on going in circles about this, but it's not going to affect the outcome. 

In the end, I guess we'll just agree to disagree on whether or not this is a national health crisis. If this isn't a health crisis then I don't know what is. 

Do you think every case was identified 2 months ago? They were only testing the obvious ones admitted to hospitals at the time. My GUESS is that a huge number of cases (asymtomatic people for example) were never identified. Therefore, there may have been many more cases months ago. And cases could conceivably be dropping. Therefore that graph showing rising cases would be misleading. We just don't know what the true numbers were then- or even now. It seems to me that increased testing is catching many more cases, many asymptomatic, that would not have been caught months ago. You and wife are examples of people getting tested who would not have been months ago when elective procedures were being postponed. More testing is going to turn up more cases. Your data is only reflecting what is being measured- not necessarily the true picture. You are trusting a graph and ASSUMING EVERY CASE is being recorded. We know that is not true. 

For your first point, I believe I was rather clear in my response when I said The curve, to my understanding, means having PPE supplies, better treatments, hospital capacity, more tests AND LESS DEATHS in addition to cases. I understand you may not have realized that in reading the earlier post. 

It surely was a crisis months ago, still is in some places (AZ), but even the CDC will dropping it from being a pandemic in a couple weeks if the current trends hold. 

I've seen where there are estimates that in excess of 100k people per day may be getting this and, if so, we are getting much closer to herd immunity (if that even exists for this virus!).

[HoosierFaithful]

22 minutes ago, Reacher said:

More TX news-

"leaders of several major hospitals in Houston this week urged the public to remain calm, suggesting that the extent of the outbreak has been overstated. 

At a virtual press conference on Thursday, the chief executives of Houston Methodist, Memorial Hermann Health System, St. Luke’s Health, and Texas Children’s hospitals stated that their hospitals are well-prepared to handle an even greater increase in patients than that which has emerged over the past few weeks. 

The number of hospitalizations are "being misinterpreted," said Houston Methodist CEO Marc Boom, "and, quite frankly, we’re concerned that there is a level of alarm in the community that is unwarranted right now."

"We do have the capacity to care for many more patients, and have lots of fluidity and ability to manage," Boom said.

He pointed out that his hospital one year ago was at 95% ICU capacity, similar to the numbers the hospital is seeing today. "It is completely normal for us to have ICU capacities that run in the 80s and 90s," he said. "That's how all hospitals operate." 

He noted that around 25% of ICU patients are COVID-19-positive. But the hospital "[has] many levers in our ability to adjust our ICU," he said, claiming that the hospital capacity regularly reported by the media is "base" capacity rather than surge capacity. 

Texas Children's Hospital CEO Mark Wallace added that his facility has "a lot of capacity."

"We have the ability to take care of all of the Houstonians that need a critical care environment, that need to be operated on, or acute care," Wallace said.

"There is not a scenario, in my opinion, where the demand for our beds ... would eclipse our capability," he continued. "I cannot imagine that. I just cannot."

https://justthenews.com/politics-policy/coronavirus/texas-government-counting-every-covid-positive-hospital-case

 

Looks like the TX hospital CEO says the level of alarm is unwarranted. Let's all please calm down.

Great example of my earlier point - this is a pandemic, akin to a war, and no single person is the final arbiter of truth.  There is simply too much happening.  This guy might be right, the story I posted might be right, the truth might be somewhere in the middle.  When you have two sets of doctors disagreeing with one another, that doesn't mean one is lying - it means the right answers are hard to come by.  

When any of us try to pass off anything as an absolute fact, we're begging to look a fool.  This is a very fluid, very complex situation.

[Reacher]

24 minutes ago, HoosierFaithful said:

Watch this video around 4:20 

https://www.cnn.com/videos/health/2020/07/02/texas-hospital-crowded-coronavirus-marquez-pkg-newday-vpx.cnn

Talk about contradicting information!  I just posted about Hospital CEOs saying the situation is overblown. All depends on where you are and who you talk to. I don't think either are lying. All the more reason to gather all the info, not rush to judgement and make the decisions best for you, your family, and those around you. Heck, when this first started I was wiping down my groceries with lysol wipes in the garage before bringing them into my house!

[Reacher]

1 minute ago, HoosierFaithful said:

Great example of my earlier point - this is a pandemic, akin to a war, and no single person is the final arbiter of truth.  There is simply too much happening.  This guy might be right, the story I posted might be right, the truth might be somewhere in the middle.  When you have two sets of doctors disagreeing with one another, that doesn't mean one is lying - it means the right answers are hard to come by.  

When any of us try to pass off anything as an absolute fact, we're begging to look a fool.  This is a very fluid, very complex situation.

I think I just said that ^^^ !😁

I like the analogy to war. They reference the "fog" of war. Individuals do not necessarily see the big picture. The fluidity. The interpretations over time. So many points that could be made. 

[Hoosierhoopster]

3 hours ago, Reacher said:

 

 

Deaths are at an all time low. (Sorry @mrflynn03- see you posted the same chart) . I acknowledged some places are still hot but that is a LOCAL issue and people are not dying at the rate they previously were. Don't say I disregarded increases, I haven't. I"m saying things - for the vast majority of the country- are clearly improving.  There is no National Health Emergency going on around me. You are the one living in a bubble. As lockdowns are relaxed, and mass gatherings (for BLM, Fireworks, etc) pick up, it is logical cases will pick up. That is to be expected. I see it as progress, not an emergency (Not saying that there are not pockets truly facing an emergency before you accuse me of that). Furthermore, the curve hasn't flattened. I was wrong. It is clearly declining (measuring deaths).

Again we already covered this in great detail and you're still ignoring that death rates lag increased cases, increased hospitalizations, which are clearly up and significantly all over the place. We already had a full discussion on that, including other factors that may affect lower death rates, and we are CLEARLY in a wait and see on whether death rates will start to climb again, after this holiday weekend. To say this is not an emergency or national crisis is to disregard reality. Of course it is. I'm not going to continue this discussion with you, there's really no point.

[Hoosierhoopster]

2 hours ago, Reacher said:

I have seen these charts. New cases are up because we are testing more. Do you really think there are twice as many cases now than two months ago? Or that we weren't catching every case two months ago? My GUESS is that it is the latter. I guess I'd say that graph is misleading information.

Right. Sure. I really don't get why you ignore things to push your narrative. And, clearly, that's exactly what you're doing. OK, I'm done with this discussion with you.

[5fouls]

1 hour ago, HoosierFaithful said:

To the point: AZ just activated crisis care standards.  I saw a TX doctor, live from the ER, explaining how he had 10 patients but only 3 beds.  That was one isolated doctor, but here is another example:

https://www.texastribune.org/2020/07/05/texas-coronavirus-hospitals-houston-san-antonio-austin/

Hospitals are in a better spot than they were in March/April - that is to be sure.  We also know a whole lot more than we did on potential drugs/antivirals/etc than we did then.  The problem to me, though, is that if we keep having exponential growth (which we do in many places) we're in some deep, deep doo-doo.

AZ's positive test rate is a mind boggling 25%!!! That means we're drastically under-counting the actual cases.

Arizona's raw numbers may not match those of Florida or Texas, but a large part of that is the overall population difference.  From my perspective, Arizona is in a ,much darker place right now than either of those other states.  I mean, Texas's number of cases per $1MM population still lags behind Indiana's and at no type in this process has Indiana been considered to be a hot spot.

 

[5fouls]

As far as ICU capacity, I can only speak from my personal experiences.

In 2015, my brother was in ICU for just under 3 weeks until he passed.  At no time during those 3 weeks was the ICU not at or very near capacity.  If a room opened up to to discharge or death, it was filled within a matter of hours.

My mom has been in and out of ICU multiple times in the last half-dozen years.  In a couple of those instances, she had to spend time in a regular bed until ICU space opened up.

My point is that ICU capacity can be misleading, both ways.  If a hospital that typically runs at 90% capacity is now at 95% capacity because of Covid, that's not in and of itself alarming, rather just a slight deviant from the norm.  At the same time, if a hospital is at 40% ICU capacity, it's not necessarily a good thing if the hospital normally runs at 20% capacity.

The problem with the numbers that are thrown around (from both sides) is that they are meaningful only when taken into context.

Even the number of deaths, which is ultimately how this disease should be judged, can be misleading.  Even taking away the 'of Covid' and 'with Covid' argument, things like the age of those that die is important.  If 60% of the deaths in a community/city/state are people over 80, that is meaningful as it relates to how society should react. By contrast, if 60% of the deaths were school aged children, then you shut down schools.  But, if only a fraction of one percent of deaths are school aged children, you leave schools open and take steps to protect those in the community that are at risk.

 

  

Edited July 6, 2020 by 5fouls

[HoosierFaithful]

13 minutes ago, 5fouls said:

Arizona's raw numbers may not match those of Florida or Texas, but a large part of that is the overall population difference.  From my perspective, Arizona is in a ,much darker place right now than either of those other states.  I mean, Texas's number of cases per $1MM population still lags behind Indiana's and at no type in this process has Indiana been considered to be a hot spot.

 

Yes, AZ is very bad.  Like - worse off than Italy was, in all likelihood.  It is concerning.

[tdhoosier]

1 hour ago, Reacher said:

Do you think every case was identified 2 months ago? They were only testing the obvious ones admitted to hospitals at the time. My GUESS is that a huge number of cases (asymtomatic people for example) were never identified. Therefore, there may have been many more cases months ago. And cases could conceivably be dropping. Therefore that graph showing rising cases would be misleading. We just don't know what the true numbers were then- or even now. It seems to me that increased testing is catching many more cases, many asymptomatic, that would not have been caught months ago. You and wife are examples of people getting tested who would not have been months ago when elective procedures were being postponed. More testing is going to turn up more cases. Your data is only reflecting what is being measured- not necessarily the true picture. You are trusting a graph and ASSUMING EVERY CASE is being recorded. We know that is not true. 

For your first point, I believe I was rather clear in my response when I said The curve, to my understanding, means having PPE supplies, better treatments, hospital capacity, more tests AND LESS DEATHS in addition to cases. I understand you may not have realized that in reading the earlier post. 

It surely was a crisis months ago, still is in some places (AZ), but even the CDC will dropping it from being a pandemic in a couple weeks if the current trends hold. 

I've seen where there are estimates that in excess of 100k people per day may be getting this and, if so, we are getting much closer to herd immunity (if that even exists for this virus!).

We're going to get lost in semantics. If that's what you say then I believe you. Maybe I'm too literal because I have not seen a curve on a graph that incorporates all the factors you mention above. 

Here's the thing. I don't think every case was identified 2 months ago and I don't believe every case is identified now; there are always going to be outliers. However, the "testing more = more cases" theory is just as speculative as trying to determine how many cases were missed in April. I don't doubt that increasing of testing factors into your theory, but it's impossible to speculate to what degree. We can only go on the data that we have.

That said, i think the number isn't as far off as you speculate, but just like you, that is my guess. The reason for this is that the tests were rationed for the truly symptomatic in March and April, thus per the graph you posted above, the higher "percentage positive". As of May and June, test weren't only being rationed for symptomatic, a high percentage of tests were being used as precautionary (and mandatory) tests for elective surgerys, to confirm the previously infected were negative, etc., thus explaining the now decreased "percentage positive". More people are now being tested on a precautionary basis. I know I represent a small sample size but I know quite a few people who have gotten a test in the last month and they all were tested to confirm a negative (none had symptoms). So, what if *50% of the tests administered are being used to confirm a negative right now? I haven't seen any data that distinguishes between the 2 (confirming a positive vs. confirming a negative); they're all lumped in together. Hypothetically, that'd mean we're catching approximately the same amount of cases right now as we were in late April. Yes, some asymptomatic test are caught, but at face value, more tests does not necessarily mean we are catching, say, *twice* as many cases as we did in late April. Maybe we're only catching *10%* more cases. If that were accurate, it'd seem silly to blame increased cases solely on more testing. I think the more logical answer is that a highly contagious virus is reproducing exponentially. *just throwing out 'easy numbers' to explain my reasoning.

Furthermore, if a symptomatic person tests positive, but has to have two negatives to come back to work (again, many companies are requiring this), does that mean that 3 tests = 3 new cases? Of course not. 

Hope that makes sense. If anybody has any numbers on who/why is being tested now, I'd genuinely like to see that info. I doubt hospitals code that differently though.

 

 

 

 

Edited July 6, 2020 by tdhoosier

[IUFLA]

1 hour ago, Hoosierhoopster said:

Right. Sure. I really don't get why you ignore things to push your narrative. And, clearly, that's exactly what you're doing. OK, I'm done with this discussion with you.

This where I think you and I (and a couple of others) run off the rails.

To me, there is no "narrative." I, personally, want to inch forward on this pandemic and get people's lives back to normal.

I think I said this earlier in this thread, but posting positive, or any information for that matter, is not, or at least shouldn't be, part of any "narrative." From what I know about you, you and I seem to be somewhat insulated from all this, but many aren't. People are losing their livelihoods over this. Mental health and addiction issues may eventually outweigh everything except the final mortality rate here.

I'm not going to speak for anyone else, but when I  see or share a shred of good news on this crappy situation, it lets me know there is hope. It makes me believe that we're getting there. That, hopefully, the end to this nightmare is closer.

I'll be the first to admit, I am very fortunate in the fact I don't have to sweat money, and my job is good til the day I call it quits. But I know plenty who aren't in that situation. And my heart really goes out to them.

It has absolutely nothing to do with anything else.

Edited July 6, 2020 by IUFLA

[Proud2BAHoosier]

Evansville might become the new epicenter for new cases in Indiana. 26 new cases for a total of 548. It's apparent not too many are taking the virus seriously.

[Reacher]

7 minutes ago, IUFLA said:

This where I think you and I (and a couple of others) run off the rails.

To me, there is no "narrative." I, personally, want to inch forward on this pandemic and get people's lives back to normal.

I think I said this earlier in this thread, but posting positive,or any information for that matter, is not, or at least shouldn't be, part of any "narrative." From what I know about you, you and I seem to be somewhat insulated from all this, but many aren't. People are losing their livelihoods over this. Mental health and addiction issues may eventually outweigh everything except the final mortality rate here.

I'm not going to speak for anyone else, but when I  see or share a shred of good news on this crappy situation, it lets me know there is hope. It makes me believe that we're getting there. That, hopefully, the end to this nightmare is closer.

I'll be the first to admit, I am very fortunate in the fact I don't have to sweat money, and my job is good til the day I call it quits. But I know plenty who aren't in that situation. And my heart really goes out to them.

It has absolutely nothing to do with anything else.

I agree. Please let's end this "narrative" talk. Use this thread to post news, boots on the ground reports and share our personal experiences. 

[Reacher]

41 minutes ago, tdhoosier said:

We're going to get lost in semantics. If that's what you say then I believe you. Maybe I'm too literal because I have not seen a curve on a graph that incorporates all the factors you mention above. 

Here's the thing. I don't think every case was identified 2 months ago and I don't believe every case is identified now; there are always going to be outliers. However, the "testing more = more cases" theory is just as speculative as trying to determine how many cases were missed in April. I don't doubt that increasing of testing factors into your theory, but it's impossible to speculate to what degree. We can only go on the data that we have.

That said, i think the number isn't as far off as you speculate, but just like you, that is my guess. The reason for this is that the tests were rationed for the truly symptomatic in March and April, thus per the graph you posted above, the higher "percentage positive". As of May and June, test weren't only being rationed for symptomatic, a high percentage of tests were being used as precautionary (and mandatory) tests for elective surgerys, to confirm the previously infected were negative, etc., thus explaining the now decreased "percentage positive". More people are now being tested on a precautionary basis. I know I represent a small sample size but I know quite a few people who have gotten a test in the last month and they all were tested to confirm a negative (none had symptoms). So, what if *50% of the tests administered are being used to confirm a negative right now? I haven't seen any data that distinguishes between the 2 (confirming a positive vs. confirming a negative); they're all lumped in together. Hypothetically, that'd mean we're catching approximately the same amount of cases right now as we were in late April. Yes, some asymptomatic test are caught, but at face value, more tests does not necessarily mean we are catching, say, *twice* as many cases as we did in late April. Maybe we're only catching *10%* more cases. If that were accurate, it'd seem silly to blame increased cases solely on more testing. I think the more logical answer is that a highly contagious virus is reproducing exponentially. *just throwing out 'easy numbers' to explain my reasoning.

Furthermore, if a symptomatic person tests positive, but has to have two negatives to come back to work (again, many companies are requiring this), does that mean that 3 tests = 3 new cases? Of course not. 

Hope that makes sense. If anybody has any numbers on who/why is being tested now, I'd genuinely like to see that info. I doubt hospitals code that differently though.

Agree with most all of this. I think you will agree, we are  catching many more of the cases now than a couple months ago due to increased testing currently being done. We know there more cases earlier that were never counted. It will probably take years and antibody tests to narrow down more precise numbers. As has been pointed out, neither of us knows the truth. Numbers can be manipulated and the science / graphs/ conclusions are only as good as the data being fed into it. Which at this time, is incomplete and changing. 

[tdhoosier]

12 minutes ago, Reacher said:

Agree with most all of this. I think you will agree, we are  catching many more of the cases now than a couple months ago due to increased testing currently being done. We know there more cases earlier that were never counted. It will probably take years and antibody tests to narrow down more precise numbers. As has been pointed out, neither of us knows the truth. Numbers can be manipulated and the science / graphs/ conclusions are only as good as the data being fed into it. Which at this time, is incomplete and changing. 

I actually don’t necessarily agree we are catching ‘many’ more case due to increased testing. As I mentioned above, it’s not a black and white thing.  I personally think increased testing only plays a small factor into why cases increasing.

[Reacher]

1 hour ago, Hoosierhoopster said:

Again we already covered this in great detail and you're still ignoring that death rates lag increased cases, increased hospitalizations, which are clearly up and significantly all over the place. We already had a full discussion on that, including other factors that may affect lower death rates, and we are CLEARLY in a wait and see on whether death rates will start to climb again, after this holiday weekend. To say this is not an emergency or national crisis is to disregard reality. Of course it is. I'm not going to continue this discussion with you, there's really no point.

Care to comment on what the Houston area hospital CEOs had to say? Are they pushing some narrative when saying people are overhyping things? 

You assume death rates today are the same as they were in March / April. Good for you. I have seen enough to believe the possibility that death rates have fallen due to younger, healthier people being diagnosed, better treatments, more preparedness by hospitals and Drs, etc . The fact is there were 2500 deaths/ day at the peak. That has fallen by 90%. If cases are actually up substantially, then the death rate has fallen more than that. 

Are you going to measure deaths in absolute numbers, a percentage, a trend? Please don't going saying I told you so when the deaths increase later this week, as I imagine they will off an all time low, but acknowledge that there will be ebbs and flows and look at the 7 day, 14 day, 30 day trend lines. 

Lastly, when the CDC announces that Covid is no longer a  pandemic, will that satisfy your requirement that  Covid is no longer a national emergency?

[Reacher]

Just now, tdhoosier said:

I actually don’t necessarily agree we are catching ‘many’ more case due to increased testing. As I mentioned above, it’s not a black and white thing.  I personally think increased testing only plays a small factor into why cases increasing.

We are catching asymptomatic people now, and many with milder cases,  who could not have been caught earlier when only the most severe were tested. I have no idea what factor that will be but expect it to be greater than "small".  That's where we differ and eventually we will find out.

[Lostin76]

We've finally starting emerging from our Corona-cocoon and venturing here to the Eastern Shore of Maryland, where we normally spend a good chunk of our summers (here for about a week on this trip). I've been impressed for the most part when out and about. People that live here are wearing masks - tourists out on the main drag are clueless. We went to the Farmer's Market on Sat. morning and everything was nicely marked for social distance and everyone was wearing a mask. It felt like a good example of a small town (St. Michaels, MD) trying to do what's best to protect each other. Lots of retirees here.

When you go out on the main drag though, the tourists are not wearing masks at all. Not sure where they are coming from, but the sidewalks are very narrow and it just looks they have decided "Welp, we are on vacation, so we will do what we want." They are *carrying* masks, b/c stores are not allowing people in w/o masks. They slip them on to enter stores, which is something I guess.

I've went into Harris Teeter once to get food/beer and it was fine. Kind of weird, b/c we are not used to driving places, parking, and then going in. But everyone was wearing masks - employees and customers. I felt safe and it felt like a semblance of life (and jobs) was returning.

I've been hopeful watching the death rate, but also realizing there is a typical lag and it could start creeping up. The positive case rate is alarming. There is no way around that. Hoping that mid-late July isn't a disaster, but also know that it might be.

The thing that I still can't get over is just how badly we are screwing this up as a country. It's maddening that we are months into this and STILL have such an out-sized number of positive cases and deaths. We represent 4.25% of the worlds population, yet we have almost 26% of the world's positive cases and almost 25% of the world's deaths. Oh, and that's not just b/c we test more. We are 25th in testing per 1M people.

Does this not really get in people's craw?? Aren't we supposed to be better than this? I honestly feel like a large part of our governing body has just given up trying to fight it and hoping that we as a nation just become numb to the ever-spiraling caseloads.

 

[HoosierFaithful]

Smarter folks than I: I'm concerned, particularly in AZ, at the positive test rate.  It's at an astronomical 25%.  What does this purport to mean more broadly?  

[5fouls]

26 minutes ago, Lostin76 said:

The thing that I still can't get over is just how badly we are screwing this up as a country. It's maddening that we are months into this and STILL have such an out-sized number of positive cases and deaths. We represent 4.25% of the worlds population, yet we have almost 26% of the world's positive cases and almost 25% of the world's deaths. Oh, and that's not just b/c we test more. We are 25th in testing per 1M people.

 

I think a lot of the issue in the U.S. is the number of Americans that feel some sort of sense of entitlement.  When I see pictures 3rd world countries where everyone has a mask on, it disheartens me that we cant get there in the U.S.  

That said, I think the U.S. is reporting differently than many countries,  Some countries likely don't have the capacity to count their dead.  Others like China and Russia obviously under-report. 

And, finally, it's possible that the virus simply hits certain populations harder.  The U.S and Eastern European cultures are very similar, and both of those have been hit very hard.  Meanwhile, places like Japan are coming through very well.  Could be that cultural factors, even down to something like diet, are playing a part. 

[IUFLA]

49 minutes ago, Lostin76 said:

Oh, and that's not just b/c we test more. We are 25th in testing per 1M people.

Do you have a source for that? I'm showing the US at 6th per million...

 

[bluegrassIU]

1 hour ago, Lostin76 said:

...... Oh, and that's not just b/c we test more. We are 25th in testing per 1M people.

.

 

Talk about a misleading statement. You saying Malta and Gibralter are testing better than us?

Our testing is obviously not where it should be. But we are testing at a volume nobody else is even approaching.

The test volume is high. The organization, distribution etc is still sketchy at best.

Tests per million is just not anywhere near a fair measuring approach.

We can manipulate numbers all day doing that. On the flip side, we have tested 4 times as many people as India has. They have 5 times our population. 

That does not mean we are doing great. Just as The Cayman Islands aren't doing better because they are beating us per million.

We are testing more than anybody. Not even debatable. Are we testing efficiently? That's would be a more fair complaint.

[Hoosierhoopster]

1 hour ago, IUFLA said:

This where I think you and I (and a couple of others) run off the rails.

To me, there is no "narrative." I, personally, want to inch forward on this pandemic and get people's lives back to normal.

I think I said this earlier in this thread, but posting positive, or any information for that matter, is not, or at least shouldn't be, part of any "narrative." From what I know about you, you and I seem to be somewhat insulated from all this, but many aren't. People are losing their livelihoods over this. Mental health and addiction issues may eventually outweigh everything except the final mortality rate here.

I'm not going to speak for anyone else, but when I  see or share a shred of good news on this crappy situation, it lets me know there is hope. It makes me believe that we're getting there. That, hopefully, the end to this nightmare is closer.

I'll be the first to admit, I am very fortunate in the fact I don't have to sweat money, and my job is good til the day I call it quits. But I know plenty who aren't in that situation. And my heart really goes out to them.

It has absolutely nothing to do with anything else.

Understand and completely agree with your thoughts on looking for the positive etc. We probably agree more than we realize, because we talk about things we don't agree on or just see somewhat differently.

The narrative though is being pushed (not referring to you), it is repeatedly disregarding, or trying to explain away, increased hospitalizations, increased cases, multiple states/cities including Texas / Houston now requiring mask-wearing and re-closing businesses, with county judges re-ordering stay at home measures (here Judge Hidalgo) while, obviously and indisputably, we're having significantly increased cases, a clear spike, with increased hospitalizations (which previously also were said not to exist),  daily records of new cases (Texas, Florida, etc.). Now it's actually being pushed by saying there's no national emergency because death rates are -- currently -- lower. What reality are we living in? And it's using things like hospital officials (some hospital groups/practices) saying they have bed capacity to say things aren't bad here. Give me a break already (not you). Whether various Texas hospital groups/chains have sufficient bed capacity is NOT the point. Talk about moving the target to push a false message. It's great that some hospital groups have and expect to have sufficient bed capacity. Changes absolutely nothing about how we are CLEARLY having significant increased hospitalizations, because CLEARLY the virus is very much here, it didn't magically disappear - poof (which also was argued would happen). 

There's disagreeing about how best to handle a virus -- everyone is still learning how to best deal with this novel situation -- and then there's blatantly and repeatedly trying to post stuff to push the BS message that things aren't what they are (again, not you). That's extremely frustrating, and frankly why I allow myself to be dragged into that conversation I don't know. It's completely pointless.

Things we do agree on, fwiw -- we don't know if things we've learned over time in how to deal with the virus -- treatments, etc. -- and that because it seems most new cases are in generally young populations,  will continue to result in further driving down the death rate and overall significance in impact of this virus. Hopefully that's true regardless of measures we're taking to drive the spikes back down. We should be getting back to work and school, with appropriate measures in place (masks, social distancing, santized work and schools, etc.), the economic disaster cannot continue. The economic impact is horrible, and has to be addressed. There are more things we agree on here, I could keep going -- I respect your and others' perspectives and thoughts. I don't respect blatant attempts to disregard and deny reality. That's just annoying.