Coronavirus

[milehiiu]

Just when Disney World opens back up :

Florida reports 15,000 new coronavirus cases, smashing national record

[jv1972iu]

5 hours ago, milehiiu said:

Just when Disney World opens back up :

Florida reports 15,000 new coronavirus cases, smashing national record

Yeah, boy!  That's where I want to go for a vacation.    🙄

[tdhoosier]

I've seen ours and some other districts school re-entry plan. Bottom line is it's definitely going to be a challenge. I've seen a few complaints, but I need to give props to the school board and superintendents who need to write these things. They are between a rock and a hard place drafting guidelines that are not going to appease all for a variety of reasons. How do you plan for the unknown? How do you appease the extremely cautious and people who think we're over-reacting at the same time? How do you appease both the parents and the teachers? You just can't. 

That said, our plan built its guidelines under three different scenarios: red (high spread), orange (moderate spread) and green (low spread).  The gist is that red means everything is shut done and the kids remote learn. While in orange they move to a hybrid schedule and go to school every other day and remote learn on their off days; they also have to wear a mask in school when 'orange. Green still has minor precautions but the kids can go to school everyday.

At the very least I like that this incentivises responsible behavior within the community. Let's face it, if we aren't in green it's going to mess up parent's work schedules and make our lives that much more complicated. Maybe this will have people second guess their decision not to wear a mask in public or go to an indoor bar. On the flip side, I sure hope that parents don't send their child to school who if they are 'on the fence' because the parent doesn't want to miss a day of work. 

 

[FritzIam4IU]

https://www.wthr.com/article/news/health/indiana-coronavirus-updates-for-monday-july-13-2020/531-d3735f84-0d7e-466f-98d4-9486267ee4ad

Washington Township schools are starting school year online.

[jimsorgi]

On 7/12/2020 at 8:31 AM, Reacher said:

Beware--OSU bias

This guy has some interesting stuff. Basically saying deaths and positive cases are being counted multiple times. Old data being counted with new data (as @5foulshas pointed out). Also, we are well past the 14 days when deaths were supposed to spike and they haven't rose to levels originally projected. 

https://mobile.twitter.com/kylamb8

 

 

 

 

14 days isn’t really a good benchmark given that the typical time from case —> hospitalization —> death is greater than 14 days. That being said: deaths will probably rise more slowly than cases due to a number of factors. 
 

With regard to the data: of course it’s slowly updated because the CDC does not keep their data up to date - so at all times during the pandemic CDC’s updated totals have primarily been old data. There are far better sources out there that aggregate state data (which is far more accurate and up to date). 

Edited July 13, 2020 by jimsorgi

[5fouls]

There is a lot of self-inflected damage in the U.S.  I can't be more specific than that without violating board rules.  I just hope when it's all over that we, as a nation, take a step back and analyze what went wrong.  

The psychological and emotional toll is going to be as significant, if not more so, than the physical one.  And, a lot of that could have been prevented.

 

Edited July 13, 2020 by 5fouls

[IU Scott]

I was talking to my best friend about the stats on the virus.  With the county getting $30,000 for every death that is due to the virus they are trying to count most deaths as virus related.  My friend is a social worker in Hancock County schools and knew one family that had someone die last week.  The family said that the doctors were going to try to say it was due to the virus but their family member who dies tested negative.  They told the doctor if the death certificate shows cause of death as virus related they were going to sue.

[5fouls]

Just now, IU Scott said:

I was talking to my best friend about the stats on the virus.  With the county getting $30,000 for every death that is due to the virus they are trying to count most deaths as virus related.  My friend is a social worker in Hancock County schools and knew one family that had someone die last week.  The family said that the doctors were going to try to say it was due to the virus but their family member who dies tested negative.  They told the doctor if the death certificate shows cause of death as virus related they were going to sue.

One example of my opinion that a lot of what we are experiencing is 'self-inflicted'.  There should not be a reason (monetary or otherwise) to lie about the cause of death.  And, even if there is a reason, people in positions of authority should have enough integrity not to do so.

I applaud the family for making a stand.

  

[jimsorgi]

Those stories are pretty exaggerated, I think. The vast, vast majority of deaths related to covid are confirmed via a positive test. Yes, some of those people would have died anyway (and covid was merely a contributing cause), but that’s a relatively small group. 
 

Besides, hospitals will also get significant insurance money for taking care of anything. There’s not a huge financial incentive to label it covid. 
 

Oh, and hospitals make far more money on elective procedures, which decrease significantly when infections are high. So there’s a huge monetary incentive for hospitals to downplay the pandemic. 
 

But, at the end of the day, main reason: doctors are generally going to do what they think the right thing to do is, not jump through hoops to please administrators. 

[tdhoosier]

I'm sorry but I take those stories with a grain of salt. A) it's too easy to prove that the doctors are doctoring (no pun intended) causes of death. B) Doctors lying about this crap is against the hippocratic oath and would put their medical license in jeopardy. c) Are doctors going to lie about this for a hospital system when they themselves don't stand to benefit from all of this extra money flying around.....and risk their career at the same time? 

And the nurses are going to go along with this lie too? Hospital administrators are going to go along with this lie? Grieving families are going to go along with this lie? 

I'm sorry, it doesn't add up. A cover-up of this magnitude takes too many consenting parties to keep it a secret. 

[Hoosierhoopster]

10 minutes ago, tdhoosier said:

I'm sorry but I take those stories with a grain of salt. A) it's too easy to prove that the doctors are doctoring (no pun intended) causes of death. B) Doctors lying about this crap is against the hippocratic oath and would put their medical license in jeopardy. c) Are doctors going to lie about this for a hospital system when they themselves don't stand to benefit from all of this extra money flying around.....and risk their career at the same time? 

And the nurses are going to go along with this lie too? Hospital administrators are going to go along with this lie? Grieving families are going to go along with this lie? 

I'm sorry, it doesn't add up. A cover-up of this magnitude takes too many consenting parties to keep it a secret. 

Amazing that anyone would buy into this stuff. Good grief.

[IUFLA]

The fully skinny on payments to hospitals re COVID-19

A lot of what @tdhoosier said in there...

 

Edited July 13, 2020 by IUFLA

[jimsorgi]

10 minutes ago, IUFLA said:

The fully skinny on payments to hospitals re COVID-19

A lot of what @tdhoosier said in there...

 

Thanks for the good summary.
 

Hospitals are experiencing major financial struggles due to covid. They have zero interest in artificially inflating the pandemic. 

[Reacher]

https://news.yahoo.com/virus-immunity-may-disappear-within-months-study-111110164.html

Not good. 

Regarding the above conversation, a hospital in financial distress has extra incentives to do what they can to maximize revenue. Hope that is not the case for the large majority but it is a factor. 

 

[Lostin76]

1 hour ago, jimsorgi said:

Those stories are pretty exaggerated, I think. The vast, vast majority of deaths related to covid are confirmed via a positive test. Yes, some of those people would have died anyway (and covid was merely a contributing cause), but that’s a relatively small group. 
 

Besides, hospitals will also get significant insurance money for taking care of anything. There’s not a huge financial incentive to label it covid. 
 

Oh, and hospitals make far more money on elective procedures, which decrease significantly when infections are high. So there’s a huge monetary incentive for hospitals to downplay the pandemic. 
 

But, at the end of the day, main reason: doctors are generally going to do what they think the right thing to do is, not jump through hoops to please administrators. 

Absolutely correct. We make our money on elective procedures and surgeries, which was totally interrupted by this. COVID has been a huge burden on hospitals.

The stories about doctors and hospital falsifying are honestly a bit ridiculous and part of the larger attempt by a small slice of the media/politicians to minimize the extent/impact of the virus.

We still have about a 100 COVID inpatients cases across our three NYC hospitals. We would like nothing more than to discharge all with a good outcome. And we certainly are not looking for more COVID patients.

[5fouls]

4 hours ago, Hoosierhoopster said:

Amazing that anyone would buy into this stuff. Good grief.

So, doctors are beyond reproach, and would never bend or break the rules?  Meanwhile, the 'common' people like Scott's friend, and the family that lost the loved one, are obviously just intent on stirring the pot.  

That's an elitist point of view.

A crisis like this brings out the best in some people, but it also brings out the worst in others.  There are absolutely hospital administrators, politicians, business executives, media outlets, etc. that are laying it all on the line to help us in this crisis.  But, there are most certainly are others determined to game the system and manipulate the story. 

Likewise, there are decent 'common' people that are making great sacrifices for the betterment of all, while there are also entitled and foolish people that refuse to wear masks and partake in other risky behaviors.

It drives me crazy when people can't accept that there is good and bad at all levels of society.  And, unfortunately, more and more people are choosing to pick sides versus choosing to do what's right. 

 

 

[5fouls]

I mean, c'mon, the Los Angeles Lakers tried to game the system when they applied for one of the SBA program loans.  And, let's be honest, the only reason they gave the money back was they got called out on it. 

If that can happen, why can't we believe that some doctor in Indiana (or anywhere else) has incentive to fudge a cause of death.

.   

[Hoosierhoopster]

2 hours ago, 5fouls said:

So, doctors are beyond reproach, and would never bend or break the rules?  Meanwhile, the 'common' people like Scott's friend, and the family that lost the loved one, are obviously just intent on stirring the pot.  

That's an elitist point of view.

A crisis like this brings out the best in some people, but it also brings out the worst in others.  There are absolutely hospital administrators, politicians, business executives, media outlets, etc. that are laying it all on the line to help us in this crisis.  But, there are most certainly are others determined to game the system and manipulate the story. 

Likewise, there are decent 'common' people that are making great sacrifices for the betterment of all, while there are also entitled and foolish people that refuse to wear masks and partake in other risky behaviors.

It drives me crazy when people can't accept that there is good and bad at all levels of society.  And, unfortunately, more and more people are choosing to pick sides versus choosing to do what's right. 

 

 

Oh good grief 

[jimsorgi]

Of course there will be doctors that do things that are unethical. But that’s missing the point. 
 

Is it reasonable to think that sufficiently large numbers of doctors (thousands) are lying on death certificates despite minimal (to the extent that they are really immaterial) short-term institutional financial benefits, significant medium to long term institutional financial harm, and zero personal financial benefit that the covid numbers are materially artificially inflated? 
 

To me, that answer is a resounding “no.”  I have no doubt that if we did a deep dive into every single death we’d find a few that didn’t line up - but an extremely small and immaterial percent. I also have no doubt that there have been deaths related to covid that weren’t captured for various reasons. 
 

[rico]

How many doctors get caught in medicare/medicaid fraud?

[5fouls]

13 minutes ago, jimsorgi said:

Of course there will be doctors that do things that are unethical. But that’s missing the point. 
 

Is it reasonable to think that sufficiently large numbers of doctors (thousands) are lying on death certificates despite minimal (to the extent that they are really immaterial) short-term institutional financial benefits, significant medium to long term institutional financial harm, and zero personal financial benefit that the covid numbers are materially artificially inflated? 
 

To me, that answer is a resounding “no.”  I have no doubt that if we did a deep dive into every single death we’d find a few that didn’t line up - but an extremely small and immaterial percent. I also have no doubt that there have been deaths related to covid that weren’t captured for various reasons. 
 

I agree with you that the majority of doctors are honest, just as the majority of the populace is honest. 

So, who do we choose to believe? 

In this case, what makes the doctor more credible than Scott's social worker friend?  Are doctors more honorable than social workers?  Is a doctor no one on here knows more likely to tell the truth than a good friend of a long time poster?  

 

 

[jimsorgi]

12 minutes ago, 5fouls said:

I agree with you that the majority of doctors are honest, just as the majority of the populace is honest. 

So, who do we choose to believe? 

In this case, what makes the doctor more credible than Scott's social worker friend?  Are doctors more honorable than social workers?  Is a doctor no one on here knows more likely to tell the truth than a good friend of a long time poster?  

 

 

That’s a false equivalence though, right? 
 

Simply because someone said “x” we have to treat it as if it’s true? Scott and Scott’s friend have no knowledge of the entirety of the pandemic; why would I say “well, one person said they didn’t think a death was related to covid and doctors thought it might be therefore we should invalidate all covid data because all doctors lie?”
 

My friend says Michael Jordan is actually a lizard person. That explains why he struggles to connect emotionally to people. Why wouldn’t you choose you believe him? 

Obviously, the answer is that we look to the information we actually have (not just “I heard someone say this”). There are huge amounts of information supporting the true extent of the pandemic, and extremely minimal evidence - primarily isolated anecdotes - suggesting it is exaggerated to some unspecified degree. 
 

Besides, none of this answers the basic question: why would doctors lie about it? 

[rico]

4 minutes ago, jimsorgi said:

 

Besides, none of this answers the basic question: why would doctors lie about it? 

Pretty basic answer:  Money

[tdhoosier]

14 minutes ago, 5fouls said:

I agree with you that the majority of doctors are honest, just as the majority of the populace is honest. 

So, who do we choose to believe? 

In this case, what makes the doctor more credible than Scott's social worker friend?  Are doctors more honorable than social workers?  Is a doctor no one on here knows more likely to tell the truth than a good friend of a long time poster?  

 

 

The question should be are enough doctors lying to significantly impact the numbers, to the degree that death numbers tell a different narrative then what we are being fed. Is that what you believe? 

I’m not saying all doctors are good or bad people, but I’m not going to let a story from a friend of a friend of a poster I’ve never met in real life (love you Scott) make me not believe ALL the data collected.....or ever a vast vast majority of it. That’s how all these stories seem to start: “I heard that my cousin’s, friend’s, step Dad died in an auto accident and the they marked it as COVID.” Maybe some are true. Maybe some lack context. Maybe some are lies.

The fact is there is no tangible proof of hospitals or doctors manipulating birth certificates. It’s all speculation based on hearsay that has never been followed down and reported on. Especially when many media outlets would be chomping at the bit to expose a story like this. 

[tdhoosier]

12 minutes ago, rico said:

Pretty basic answer:  Money

Wait, are the doctors getting money or hospital systems getting money?

And it is about money. As many have pointed out above, it’s not in a hospital’s financial interest to inflate death numbers. It’d actually be more financially advantageous for them to suppress the numbers. They make more money on the elective surgeries that are getting cancelled.