Illinois Postgame Thread

[iuthruandthru]

19 hours ago, BGleas said:

Is it on coaching when that scoring run includes two missed layups and two wide open missed 3's by a junior and senior starting guards? I'm not trying to be an Archie apologist, because at times it is on him, but that drought at around the 8-7 minute mark included some wide open missed shots, as well as Geromino running to the middle of the paint when his guy had the ball on the top of the key and hit an wide open 3. 

Those are player breakdowns, not coaching breakdowns. 

As a stat guy one game is an anomaly but it’s becoming a trend.  Look at the whole sum and it’s a consistent pattern that has yet to be broken.  Stats and patterns don’t lie.

[BGleas]

6 minutes ago, iuthruandthru said:

As a stat guy one game is an anomaly but it’s becoming a trend.  Look at the whole sum and it’s a consistent pattern that has yet to be broken.  Stats and patterns don’t lie.

Do you have stats on how many scoring droughts have been like the one described in yesterday's game that was due to player execution, not coaching? 

[IowaHoosierFan]

My only wish is that we put a bit more focus on offense. I feel playing time ann N d starts are based on who is the best defenders instead of who gives the best chance to win the game.   
 

Maybe have a different defensive scheme for the guys who can score but can’t lock down a defender.  
 

i don’t know the answer. And even if we are getting better year over year, it really won’t matter if we don’t win games or compete for the B1G because it looks like everyone else in the B1G is getting better year over year too.

Does it matter of we're getting better year over year if it doesn't translate to wins and titles?

I dont know the answer. 

[IU Scott]

Watching Indiana Sports post game show on YouTube with Could, Leary and Brian Evans. Evans was talking about TJD and Evans was pretty critical of his play.  He said at least we should have him for another year or so.  He said with his skill set right now that TJD had no shot at playing in the NBA.

[DWB]

Happened to check out AJ Guyton's podcast site tonite, and he was interviewed by some other podcast guy, but the point is if you want to hear a review from a great player for IU about the Illannoy game, give this a listen.

https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/house-of-hoosier-with-a-j-guyton/id1536523615

[KoB2011]

4 hours ago, IU Scott said:

Watching Indiana Sports post game show on YouTube with Could, Leary and Brian Evans. Evans was talking about TJD and Evans was pretty critical of his play.  He said at least we should have him for another year or so.  He said with his skill set right now that TJD had no shot at playing in the NBA.

I said the same thing after the game to some buddies. TJD completely shrunk and if he plays his normal game we probably win. 

If he can't hit a midrange jumper and he can't score over guys bigger than him, he isn't gonna be a first round draft pick. 

[iuthruandthru]

22 hours ago, BGleas said:

Do you have stats on how many scoring droughts have been like the one described in yesterday's game that was due to player execution, not coaching? 

We can both cherry pick the droughts to make them work our way.  Even with missed easy baskets the defense and play calling are being forgotten in your points.  I prefer to look at it all.  The defense failed and I can find coaching examples like out of that timeout where the team looked completely ill prepared.  Look, don’t put me in the doom and gloom group on this.  I have consistently stated I want to look at the whole of the season but the pattern has not been broken no matter what you or I think the reason is.

I like that Coach has been setting up AF more on set plays and TJD needs to make some of those close shots.  But long term it’s time to step up and stop the droughts both offensively and defensively and that to me the whole team should take blame for but coach is always going to take the first and biggest blame.

Next two games are huge to stop the pattern.

[Beowulf50]

Basketball aside Tennessee is an awesome place to live!! 

[NCHoosier32]

18 minutes ago, Beowulf50 said:

Basketball aside Tennessee is an awesome place to live!! 

love Gatlinburg

[southsidehoosier]

53 minutes ago, Beowulf50 said:

Basketball aside Tennessee is an awesome place to live!! 

If I could live in another state it would be Tennessee

[Muckraker]

On 12/26/2020 at 10:45 PM, WanamakerIUFan said:

Re: Phinisee

Very long time lurker and without going into too much detail, I'm a doctor that works with athletes with psychological preparation. I have no contacts with IU, but I do know that Phinisee has suffered concussion problems and that can cause some issues within the player themselves that is hard for them to get over even if given a clean bill of health. I have no insight into any of this on a personal level with Rob as I haven't worked with him individually. Only thought I'd share as people here have mentioned they haven't seen a ton of improvement from Rob over the years he's been in Bloomington. 

Take my opinion with a grain of salt. It's a very OUTSIDE view from an outsider. But I've seen this kind of stuff before and it makes me wonder if Rob's trajectory has been thrown completely off from what we'd thought he'd be after his freshman season. I'm just a big IU fan. Didn't go to the university but grew up in Indiana. No inside information, but wonder if maybe Rob's stalling has to do with his concussions and the aftermath. 

Hope I'm completely off base, but interesting to think about.

You may be right, but I also wonder why we never heard anything about Phinisee having hernia surgery. I've had 2 hernias and they don't fix themselves!

[go_iu_bb]

16 minutes ago, Muckraker said:

You may be right, but I also wonder why we never heard anything about Phinisee having hernia surgery. I've had 2 hernias and they don't fix themselves!

I don't think it was ever confirmed to be a hernia, I think it was always called a "lower abdominal injury" our something like that. Fans took that to mean hernia and Phinisee's poor play seemed to reinforce that. This year is showing that the poor play likely wasn't due to a hernia.

[Muckraker]

2 minutes ago, go_iu_bb said:

I don't think it was ever confirmed to be a hernia, I think it was always called a "lower abdominal injury" our something like that. Fans took that to mean hernia and Phinisee's poor play seemed to reinforce that and hernia was the excuse. This year is showing otherwise.

Kind of like Hunter's "leg injury" and Brunk's "back injury". I realize we, as fans don't have a right to know the specifics of a players medical situation, but it would be nice to know if that situation was dealt with. If Rob did have a hernia, and it was not surgically repaired, it would explain a lot to me about why his play has been hampered this year.

[NCHoosier32]

10 hours ago, southsidehoosier said:

If I could live in another state it would be Tennessee

tennessee.  tennessee.  there ain't no place i'd rather be.

[IUFLA]

Motivator?

Another great article by TDH...

"Dosunmu was asked at what point he decides he is going to try to take games over.  He said on this day the door was opened after he set the trap.

“I played a mind game with them,” Dosunmu said of Indiana.  “All of my ball screens, they were kind of hard hedging.  I was making the right play like six, seven times in a row, so their bigs started getting lazy, started getting complacent.  So when I when I was coming off, they were expecting me to keep making the right play, keep hitting the corner.  Just playing a mind game with ’em.”

If I was CAM, that would be taped to Trayce's and Race's locker...

[IowaHoosierFan]

Stupid mental or physical issue concerning [Insert Player Name Here]

[mchenry34]

1 hour ago, IUFLA said:

Motivator?

Another great article by TDH...

"Dosunmu was asked at what point he decides he is going to try to take games over.  He said on this day the door was opened after he set the trap.

“I played a mind game with them,” Dosunmu said of Indiana.  “All of my ball screens, they were kind of hard hedging.  I was making the right play like six, seven times in a row, so their bigs started getting lazy, started getting complacent.  So when I when I was coming off, they were expecting me to keep making the right play, keep hitting the corner.  Just playing a mind game with ’em.”

If I was CAM, that would be taped to Trayce's and Race's locker...

Whether TJD finds it motivating or not, it's simply true. As good as he is, he goes through the motions quite often.

This is true in his defensive rotations and it is true in running the court when he doesn't think it will immediately result in a bucket, and it is true whenever a play is not specifically designed to go to him...

In fact, I would say that this is true of the Archie Miller era...in terms of execution we have teams that simply go through the motions on the offensive end...We simply don't do the little things...When was the last time you saw one of our guards come off a screen really tightly and get into the lane with the basketball? when was the last time you saw a great screen be set? Even though we are pretty good defensively, we often are lacking energy...we are usually making the right rotations but not making them with the intensity needed to really take a team out of their game...

[IUFLA]

22 minutes ago, mchenry34 said:

Whether TJD finds it motivating or not, it's simply true. As good as he is, he goes through the motions quite often.

This is true in his defensive rotations and it is true in running the court when he doesn't think it will immediately result in a bucket, and it is true whenever a play is not specifically designed to go to him...

In fact, I would say that this is true of the Archie Miller era...in terms of execution we have teams that simply go through the motions on the offensive end...We simply don't do the little things...When was the last time you saw one of our guards come off a screen really tightly and get into the lane with the basketball? when was the last time you saw a great screen be set? Even though we are pretty good defensively, we often are lacking energy...we are usually making the right rotations but not making them with the intensity needed to really take a team out of their game...

The first part of your post I agree with...I've heard Archie say the same thing on post game comments...

I take the 2nd part I am reading as an indictment of Archie's coaching...So I take it you'd be for a change?

 

[Hoosierhoopster]

20 minutes ago, mchenry34 said:

Whether TJD finds it motivating or not, it's simply true. As good as he is, he goes through the motions quite often.

This is true in his defensive rotations and it is true in running the court when he doesn't think it will immediately result in a bucket, and it is true whenever a play is not specifically designed to go to him...

In fact, I would say that this is true of the Archie Miller era...in terms of execution we have teams that simply go through the motions on the offensive end...We simply don't do the little things...When was the last time you saw one of our guards come off a screen really tightly and get into the lane with the basketball? when was the last time you saw a great screen be set? Even though we are pretty good defensively, we often are lacking energy...we are usually making the right rotations but not making them with the intensity needed to really take a team out of their game...

Those times (caught by Adragna) when TJD just coasted back, even one where Al raced past him from way back on the left side to try to catch the fast break, were just embarrassing. TJD is outstanding, but those are plays that lose games, the lack of effort is just bad. Have to think CAM will highlight them. 

I'll say we've seen a number of nice sets run at times, like in the FSU game, but still this kind of echoes what Gleas and I were talking about, the lack of a killer player, and that goes to setting the tone for the team. Who is the guy on this team who comes out with killer mindset, and who pumps up everyone around him? We just seem to lack that. Franklin strikes me as a guy who might develop that edge, but he's kind of quiet. TJD has shown fire, and I do think he will in this next game after those embarrassing plays/lack of effort, but he doesn't show a killer mindset, imo. We need some killers.

[mchenry34]

48 minutes ago, IUFLA said:

The first part of your post I agree with...I've heard Archie say the same thing on post game comments...

I take the 2nd part I am reading as an indictment of Archie's coaching...So I take it you'd be for a change?

 

I don't think that I want a change, but I think that Archie may need to learn a few of the same lessons that Matt Painter learned. Painter benefited from a planned transition and from IU being in turmoil early on which led to a couple of tremendous recruiting classes that fell to him without much of a fight from IU at the time. Then he really fell off because he was recruiting the Kelsey Barlow's of the world. He learned that he needed to prioritize grit and skill over athleticism and recast his program as made up of shooters and Big Men. They defend with grit, and offensively they take what the defense gives. The Purdue offensive system is not this complex thing...It is conceptually pretty similar to IU except they do a better job of spacing the floor with their 4 man. The two big differences are that Purdue takes what the defense gives by having more than one read in each action, and they do the little things like screening and cutting hard.

For IU, the only thing I would change conceptually with the offense is that I would move the second big man to the short corner during during our ball screen actions. I think that it is a huge mistake to have someone posting up as the guard is trying to turn the corner into the lane. We have so few opportunities to hit the roll and so few opportunities to get to the rim in that set up. Further, it is often possible for the defense to cover that action without having to use the weak side guard, so then we can't but them in a scramble mode by forcing long close outs when we kick it out.

This leads to the second issue I have, which is not conceptual, but is a mentality. In each of the four years of Archie's Tenure we have only had two attacking players on the floor. Teams like OSU, Wisconsin, Purdue, even Northwestern etc...that have similar talent levels succeed at a higher rate because four or five players on the floor are looking to be a threat. I think a large part of this is that our guards are robbed of the attacking mentality because there is nowhere to attack. The lane is clogged by us as much as it is by the opposing defense. 

At Dayton, Archie coached a four out and one in offense. Perhaps he feels he can't do that in our league because he doesn't feel we could defend and rebound well enough. But I think that it is possible to do those things if we played a slightly modified defense, or at least played with more energy and a different mentality where our hedges and  recoveries and closeouts were done with a mentality to disrupt the other teams offense, as it is we play a position defense that ends up being just passive enough that other teams have the ability to find matchup issues and exploit them.

I think that Archie needs to prioritize players like Franklin and Galloway and maybe Duncomb others who have really high motors and come in *wanting* to do the little things. I think he may need to be willing to use more scholarships and redshirt thoughtfully in order to develop players. This has worked extremely well for Purdue and Wisconsin who thrive on fourth year juniors and fifth year seniors.

I also find it interesting that many of the teams that are doing well in our league have grad transfers and routine transfers routinely (see OSU) meaning that their depth is way more experienced. Leal would have redshirted at each of those schools and would have come out the next year impacting the game with grit, shooting, and IQ...

at that point it would be on the administration and the fans to be patient enough (like Purdue was with Painter) to let it develop. With that kind of culture in place we wouldn't lose recruits like Kaufman. 

[Hoosierhoopster]

22 minutes ago, mchenry34 said:

For IU, the only thing I would change conceptually with the offense is that I would move the second big man to the short corner during during our ball screen actions. I think that it is a huge mistake to have someone posting up as the guard is trying to turn the corner into the lane. We have so few opportunities to hit the roll and so few opportunities to get to the rim in that set up. Further, it is often possible for the defense to cover that action without having to use the weak side guard, so then we can't but them in a scramble mode by forcing long close outs when we kick it out.

This leads to the second issue I have, which is not conceptual, but is a mentality. In each of the four years of Archie's Tenure we have only had two attacking players on the floor. Teams like OSU, Wisconsin, Purdue, even Northwestern etc...that have similar talent levels succeed at a higher rate because four or five players on the floor are looking to be a threat. I think a large part of this is that our guards are robbed of the attacking mentality because there is nowhere to attack. The lane is clogged by us as much as it is by the opposing defense. 

 

Agree with a lot of your post, and highlight the above as, particularly the second issue, I've been seeing the same limited number of attacking players, most recently largely because of putting Smith on the perimeter which killed any creativity / offense / attacking from the "wing." With AF we're getting a lot more offense than I thought we would, we are now getting 3 attacking players  with AF, TJD and Race, but the "mentality" thing applies well to Race, as he often has not been aggressive offensively (and when he is, we do better). This is one of the reasons I've been wanted to see more of Lander, I'd rather trade some defensive positioning issues in favor of a pg who is looking to attack, and I think Lander has already shown that, and Hunter, whose problems defensively are recognized but if given the green light can help spread the floor and add to points that we're often lacking. Related, Galloway is proving to be more of a facilitator offensively, but hasn't been attacking downhill at the rim like he did early. Getting him more involved in the offense would help.

[Inequality]

Just some of this motivation would/should light a much needed fire in these players. Either that or weed out the weak flakes.

“If your not going to recover, Greg Graham!”

Maybe Miller needs the same.

[IUFLA]

40 minutes ago, mchenry34 said:

I don't think that I want a change, but I think that Archie may need to learn a few of the same lessons that Matt Painter learned. Painter benefited from a planned transition and from IU being in turmoil early on which led to a couple of tremendous recruiting classes that fell to him without much of a fight from IU at the time. Then he really fell off because he was recruiting the Kelsey Barlow's of the world. He learned that he needed to prioritize grit and skill over athleticism and recast his program as made up of shooters and Big Men. They defend with grit, and offensively they take what the defense gives. The Purdue offensive system is not this complex thing...It is conceptually pretty similar to IU except they do a better job of spacing the floor with their 4 man. The two big differences are that Purdue takes what the defense gives by having more than one read in each action, and they do the little things like screening and cutting hard.

For IU, the only thing I would change conceptually with the offense is that I would move the second big man to the short corner during during our ball screen actions. I think that it is a huge mistake to have someone posting up as the guard is trying to turn the corner into the lane. We have so few opportunities to hit the roll and so few opportunities to get to the rim in that set up. Further, it is often possible for the defense to cover that action without having to use the weak side guard, so then we can't but them in a scramble mode by forcing long close outs when we kick it out.

This leads to the second issue I have, which is not conceptual, but is a mentality. In each of the four years of Archie's Tenure we have only had two attacking players on the floor. Teams like OSU, Wisconsin, Purdue, even Northwestern etc...that have similar talent levels succeed at a higher rate because four or five players on the floor are looking to be a threat. I think a large part of this is that our guards are robbed of the attacking mentality because there is nowhere to attack. The lane is clogged by us as much as it is by the opposing defense. 

At Dayton, Archie coached a four out and one in offense. Perhaps he feels he can't do that in our league because he doesn't feel we could defend and rebound well enough. But I think that it is possible to do those things if we played a slightly modified defense, or at least played with more energy and a different mentality where our hedges and  recoveries and closeouts were done with a mentality to disrupt the other teams offense, as it is we play a position defense that ends up being just passive enough that other teams have the ability to find matchup issues and exploit them.

I think that Archie needs to prioritize players like Franklin and Galloway and maybe Duncomb others who have really high motors and come in *wanting* to do the little things. I think he may need to be willing to use more scholarships and redshirt thoughtfully in order to develop players. This has worked extremely well for Purdue and Wisconsin who thrive on fourth year juniors and fifth year seniors.

I also find it interesting that many of the teams that are doing well in our league have grad transfers and routine transfers routinely (see OSU) meaning that their depth is way more experienced. Leal would have redshirted at each of those schools and would have come out the next year impacting the game with grit, shooting, and IQ...

at that point it would be on the administration and the fans to be patient enough (like Purdue was with Painter) to let it develop. With that kind of culture in place we wouldn't lose recruits like Kaufman. 

I appreciate the answer, though some of it through my own ignorance about the in depth part of the game are over my head...I not going to BS anybody about my knowledge of the game...I recognize talent, effort, and good defense, at least the execution part if not the overall concept, probably better than I can recognize good offense...I see us get open shots in our offense, but not making them at a rate we should...but I sincerely appreciate the answer for my own edification...

I've said this before, I think Archie HAD to recruit Romeo hard, one and done or not, more for appearance to the fan base and the high school kids both in state and nation wide. Kinda the same with TJD and to an extent, Lander...But I do think he has at least started the transition to the players like Galloway, Franklin, and Duncomb that you mentioned. The only issue I see with the comparison to Wisconsin and Purdue is, we, simply by our reputation as a blue-blood (historically) attract the attention of higher rated recruits...Wisconsin currently has only 1 RSCI top 100 kid (Reuvers) and Purdue has 2 (Ivey, Morton)...I'd prefer more toward the Villanova model (8 kids in the top 100) or Virginia (6)...And I do know both will use the redshirt...

I think you're 100% correct on being patient and letting the culture develop...A nice mix of glue kids, along with some 30-90 RSCI kids, I think is the ticket for success for CAM and IU...

[Hoosierhoopster]

27 minutes ago, dgambill said:

If only our current coach, administration, and fans were as ashamed of an 8-10 B1G record. That said Archie would probably get turned into social services if he threatened his players to run like that nowadays. The talent level of kids coming into college sports is undoubtedly much better than back then...but no doubt in my mind kids are much much softer. Not saying I would use that exact language but growing up this is exactly how my bball and football coach would address us. Got our attention and we worked our butts off to make sure we didn’t let him down.

I don't know, watching CAM on the sideline I just don't buy the idea that he is not a hard-nosed or a disciplinarian, if that's what you mean to say (can't really tell). The days of RMK are in the past -- leaving aside his abusive behavior, the army-style coaching just doesn't fly today, but that doesn't mean CAM isn't hard on the players or hard-nosed generally, and not playing players, or playing them only 2 minutes, because they aren't meeting his defensive standards or make mistakes, is not a player-friendly look.

[KoB2011]

34 minutes ago, dgambill said:

If only our current coach, administration, and fans were as ashamed of an 8-10 B1G record. That said Archie would probably get turned into social services if he threatened his players to run like that nowadays. The talent level of kids coming into college sports is undoubtedly much better than back then...but no doubt in my mind kids are much much softer. Not saying I would use that exact language but growing up this is exactly how my bball and football coach would address us. Got our attention and we worked our butts off to make sure we didn’t let him down.

I've never understood why not tolerating abusive behavior is "soft" or seen as anything other than a good thing?