Wisconsin Post Game Thread

[BGleas]

13 minutes ago, BobSaccamanno said:

I think we posted similar thoughts around the same time.  I didn’t mention Davis because he’s an enigma to me.  I really don’t know what to make of him.   I do think against teams with weak post defenders, he can score heavily.   But, against good competition, like with Happ tonight, he’s exhibiting a lack of motor.  Maybe he’s developing his skill level, but he could have battled a lot harder from what I saw.  When you are physically so well put together, you’d like to see a tougher attitude.   We need him to contribute every night out.  Maybe the degree of contribution won’t be 15 and 7 every night, but we need him to be a factor.  You run out of players who can do anything at all at some point.  

I have been taking the long road with Davis but that doesn’t excuse a no-show while we wait.   I don’t know how it will turn out for him.  It’s up to him.  

 

Here’s the thing with Davis, he has some skill around the basket. He has some pretty decent post moves and a good touch around the basket. But with those positives, the reality is that he’s a slow, lumbering, unathletic big that plays below the rim. The game is too fast for him, and he’s not athletic enough to keep up. 

[KoB2011]

47 minutes ago, BobSaccamanno said:

This may deserve its own thread, but how much better of a team could this have been if Blackmon came back? Archie would be on his case about defense, so hopefully he’d have a pulse there.  But, as a scorer, we could really use his shooting and the other ways he could score.  

I think most of us anticipated more from Rojo in picking up the slack with spreading the floor with the shot. 

I would add Bryant to that too. I think we all thought Davis would step up to minimize that loss and that has NOT happened at all. 

[Fundamentals]

Nothing new to add, but this is a therapy post.  

The point guard for Wisconsin with the dislocated shoulder?  He simply wanted to win and played like it more than our guys.  Happ is talented, but we did not adjust.  

Was thinking last night, and thinking through our roster, we simply don’t have a good blend of fight, shooters, ball-handlers, rebounders, defenders.  Too much lacking with this roster to hide with uninspired effort.  Further, ND game was the exception, last night is a truer picture of what we are, who we are.

Say it how you will, but this team is in desperate need of a roster purge.  We need to move on from anyone who played for the previous style as quickly as possible.  Anyone who may have been impacted by the negativity surrounding the program during that time, and most importantly get a fresh infusion of TALENT.  

[IUDan93]

If CAM is the right coach, (I think he is) then I think it is clear that he inherited a dumpster fire.  Okay, maybe not the big 40 yard dumpster sized fire CTC took over, but this clearly was a program that combined some refuse removal container and flames.  

[NCHoosier32]

granted hindsight is 20/20, but i kept saying over and over that Davis would have to make quite a leap to do what many on here were expecting.  everyone was so sure that he'd be better than Bryant and talking about how bad Bryant was.  unfortunately this team has been about what i expected.  maybe a little worse.  while i love some optimism, it takes a loss to get many to realize we aren't going to have a winning B1G record.  when we win our next home game, some will start talking the optimism again, but bottom line is we need those who will not be a part of next year getting fewer and fewer minutes and those who will to get more and more.

[Seeking6]

After watching some of the effort in the 2nd half it's back to the drawing board for Archie. After watching first 6 or so games in preseason I had to adjust my expectations quite a bit so games like last night don't irritate me as much. I know it's a transition year so I'm looking for our building moments from here on out.....given what I'v watched so far. Now if this group hits on something I might change expectations.

What's scary to me is a coach going on his potentially 10th year at IU would anticipate having this roster. This isn't an Archie problem guys. I like Crean but this roster isn't for Archie.

 

[slojoe]

This game was very difficult to watch for a number of reasons.

Is help on the way?  Soon?

[Seeking6]

As with all of our players we typically like to find a comparison of a former Hoosier so all generations understands the type of game a kid has. Reason I ask...is I remember people always saying how Landon Turner flipped on a dime or something changed with him in 81 season. Can someone tell me what that switch looked like? Obviously have one of the best PG's of all time helped but what happened? Hoping Davis can find his switch soon. Makes you wonder if something off the court isn't helping. 

[Hoosier987]

1 hour ago, Seeking6 said:

After watching some of the effort in the 2nd half it's back to the drawing board for Archie. After watching first 6 or so games in preseason I had to adjust my expectations quite a bit so games like last night don't irritate me as much. I know it's a transition year so I'm looking for our building moments from here on out.....given what I'v watched so far. Now if this group hits on something I might change expectations.

What's scary to me is a coach going on his potentially 10th year at IU would anticipate having this roster. This isn't an Archie problem guys. I like Crean but this roster isn't for Archie.

 

Crean wouldn't win 10 games with this roster -- it's pathetic.  We will get Archie's guys in and be just fine!

[rico]

20 minutes ago, Seeking6 said:

As with all of our players we typically like to find a comparison of a former Hoosier so all generations understands the type of game a kid has. Reason I ask...is I remember people always saying how Landon Turner flipped on a dime or something changed with him in 81 season. Can someone tell me what that switch looked like? Obviously have one of the best PG's of all time helped but what happened? Hoping Davis can find his switch soon. Makes you wonder if something off the court isn't helping. 

This will shed some light on it.......

 

http://www.hoosierchronicles.com/2012/11/a-letter-from-bob-knight-to-landon.html

[iufaninand]

11 hours ago, 5fouls said:

Chris Holtman quite possibly inherited a worse roster, and certainly did so under more difficult circumstances.  But, he's done something to get his guys to overachieve at OSU.  Archie has to bear some of the responsibility here.

I agree. i’ve had a night to sleep on this and i think the responsibility that archie bears is hows he motivates his players with his words.  i know i was thrilled to hear him rip the players for being soft after the last game.  one of two things should happen:

1. a player with pride will get upset bc he’s letting the coaches down and the team down and start playing harder

or

2. a soft player will get upset that the coach said that in public, get mad at the coach and quit playing to “show him how much they need me” and/or start to believe they’re soft and give up bc obviously there’s nothing they can do to affect it.

i think we all see this team is made up of too many players in #2 mindset.

im sure when archie played, he could be motivated by #1.

you might notice his tone was already lighter during the press conf last night, even when asked about their lack of effort.

He will get there.  He just has a group that is motivated by claps, motivational talks and cue-cards.

 

 

[Seeking6]

30 minutes ago, rico said:

This will shed some light on it.......

 

http://www.hoosierchronicles.com/2012/11/a-letter-from-bob-knight-to-landon.html

Thanks for posting this!

[IowaHoosierFan]

couple thoughts now that i have had time to think about the game.

1.  CAM might need to change his game plan for this year and run an offense/defense that meets the capability of his team.  Adapt and adjust, while planning for next year.

2.  As much energy and hustle that McBob brings, he has to become a threat to shoot the ball.  Whether it goes in or not, he cannot look to pass every time he touches the ball.

3.  Newkirk and RoJo are going to start every game this year.  They are just that much better than what we have on the bench and CAM is too competitive to sit them and play his younger guys giving up on the season.  At least not yet.

4.  Even though i knew this year was going to suck, its disheartening to watch the product on the floor.  And if you watch CAM you can see the same thing.  At time his facial expressions are exactly what mine are when someone does something stupid, which is like every other play.

5.  Even though Morgan didn't do alot last night, he is hands down a much better player than i expected.  He has had a great season so far and i expect him to continue to do so.  If he has a decent season.  He will be the reason we win some games this year.

 

[Billingsley99]

I just have 1 question.  Why can't our guys hit wide open 3pt shots? I see almost every D1 team in America have stretch 4 and 5 that step out and hit shots and our guards can't throw it in the ocean. It's not a difficult task u put a round ball in a round hole. No excuse not to be able to hit shots

[Seeking6]

4 minutes ago, Billingsley99 said:

I just have 1 question.  Why can't our guys hit wide open 3pt shots? I see almost every D1 team in America have stretch 4 and 5 that step out and hit shots and our guards can't throw it in the ocean. It's not a difficult task u put a round ball in a round hole. No excuse not to be able to hit shots

First guess. Confidence?

When I played golf every day I wouldn't miss a putt from 5 feet. Now? I've let shaky into my game. Same goes for shooters as we all know. Kids just lack confidence on who/when is someone supposed to shoot. They've been coached to let it fly their entire life (reason most chose IU under Crean) now they are being forced to think about when to let it fly. Big difference and it hurts confidence. At least that's my two cents.

[rico]

https://www.crimsonquarry.com/2018/1/2/16843498/indiana-experiences-predictable-outcome-loses-to-wisconsin-in-madison-by-a-decent-amount

[HoosierCPA]

For obvious reasons, I'm extremely frustrated with the team, but I'm pretty frustrated with Archie, too.  We just got our butts kicked by a bunch of walk-ons.  When there's that big of a talent level difference, there's got to be some blame put on the coach.  I understand good teams get upset all season long.  But it's not like it's the NCAA tournament and one team pulls one over on a blue blood, winning on a last second shot.  We are time and time again getting soundly beaten by teams that have talent that is so inferior to ours.  Even when we aren't beaten, bad teams are giving us fits.  I don't think there is a single player on this team that has a lick of confidence right now.  Maybe that's what it takes for CAM to get them to play the way he wants, but it doesn't make it any less frustrating from a fan's perspective.

[Reacher]

12 hours ago, iufaninand said:

and it’s really unfair to archie but i expect him to end up being a better coach for having gone thru this year. i’m just thinking there might be more schollys available next year than we think

I'm beginning to think this as well. CuJo has already left.  Davis came to play for Crean. Is he upset over how things are going? Thought he really bought in over the summer but not seeing the results.  Is Green happy? And the freshman- do they think they should be getting more PT?

[addictedtoIU]

1 hour ago, Seeking6 said:

First guess. Confidence?

When I played golf every day I wouldn't miss a putt from 5 feet. Now? I've let shaky into my game. Same goes for shooters as we all know. Kids just lack confidence on who/when is someone supposed to shoot. They've been coached to let it fly their entire life (reason most chose IU under Crean) now they are being forced to think about when to let it fly. Big difference and it hurts confidence. At least that's my two cents.

Make sense to me. Under the new coach who stresses better shot selection and smart basketball, these guys have to think. 'Am I doing the right thing?' 'Will I get yelled at by shooting the 3 now?' Once these thoughts creep into their minds, they're not in their usual rhythm. They missed a bunch as a result, and now they lost their confidence. I don't think a player (Rob Johnson) who shot 40% 3 pointers in his first 3 seasons suddenly became a 31% 3-point shooter in his senior season for no reason. I think the coaching/style change was too much for some guys to get adjusted up to this point. 

[BGleas]

1 hour ago, HoosierCPA said:

For obvious reasons, I'm extremely frustrated with the team, but I'm pretty frustrated with Archie, too.  We just got our butts kicked by a bunch of walk-ons.  When there's that big of a talent level difference, there's got to be some blame put on the coach.  I understand good teams get upset all season long.  But it's not like it's the NCAA tournament and one team pulls one over on a blue blood, winning on a last second shot.  We are time and time again getting soundly beaten by teams that have talent that is so inferior to ours.  Even when we aren't beaten, bad teams are giving us fits.  I don't think there is a single player on this team that has a lick of confidence right now.  Maybe that's what it takes for CAM to get them to play the way he wants, but it doesn't make it any less frustrating from a fan's perspective.

I don't think many will agree with me, but here goes. 

I think the narrative that Wisconsin was devoid of talent last night and that there was a big talent difference was way overblown by the announcing crew. I don't think there was all that much of a talent difference to be honest. Of course Wisconsin was short-handed, no doubt about that, and the announcers played off that narrative. But, basketball is a 5-on-5 game where among the team sports one player can probably make the biggest difference. 1-10 was IU more talented? Sure. But, Ethan Happ is by far the most talented player on either roster. 

I think if you lined the teams up, Wisconsin had 2 of the 3 best players on the floor (Happ, Morgan, Davison), and for us Morgan was taken out of the game with fouls. I would trade any 3 players from IU for Happ and Davison. With Morgan only playing 22 minutes, for almost half the game Wisconsin had the two best players on the floor. Of the 5 players on the court IU's 3-5 was better, absolutely, but the top-end talent usually wins out. 

[Guest]

8 minutes ago, BGleas said:

I don't think many will agree with me, but here goes. 

I think the narrative that Wisconsin was devoid of talent last night and that there was a big talent difference was way overblown by the announcing crew. I don't think there was all that much of a talent difference to be honest. Of course Wisconsin was short-handed, no doubt about that, and the announcers played off that narrative. But, basketball is a 5-on-5 game where among the team sports one player can probably make the biggest difference. 1-10 was IU more talented? Sure. But, Ethan Happ is by far the most talented player on either roster. 

I think if you lined the teams up, Wisconsin had 2 of the 3 best players on the floor (Happ, Morgan, Davison), and for us Morgan was taken out of the game with fouls. I would trade any 3 players from IU for Happ and Davison. With Morgan only playing 22 minutes, for almost half the game Wisconsin had the two best players on the floor. Of the 5 players on the court IU's 3-5 was better, absolutely, but the top-end talent usually wins out. 

Completely agree with this. As I said last night in the game thread-

One very good player > 8-9 lackadaisical guys

[addictedtoIU]

4 minutes ago, Jerry Lundergaard said:

One very good player > 8-9 lackadaisical guys

Somehow you cracked me up. Yes, we have too many free loaders. Sometimes I feel like many of our players might think 'can anyone do something?' while they're not doing sh!t by themselves.

[IowaHoosierFan]

2 hours ago, addictedtoIU said:

I don't think a player (Rob Johnson) who shot 40% 3 pointers in his first 3 seasons suddenly became a 31% 3-point shooter in his senior season for no reason. I think the coaching/style change was too much for some guys to get adjusted up to this point. 

I think the biggest reason he is down is there is no Yogi or JBJ to be the main shooter/scorer.  Now Rob has to make himself open for shots and he gets the best defender.  He isn't built to be the #1 guy.  His game is the open #2 or #3 guy on team.  And that flaw is blatant now that no one else can shoot.

[BobSaccamanno]

14 hours ago, BGleas said:

Who is more disappointing, the senior class (RoJo, Newkirk, Hartman*) or the sophomore class (Davis, Green, CuJo)?

*Feel bad including Hartman as injuries have clearly impacted his game, but it’s class vs. class. 

Great question.  I have been a big Green fan because I think he can be a complete player.  He has the ability to get in the lane, shoot, drive, and really defend.  But, he just throws it away constantly right now.  If we were getting something out of Davis and Green, we may have been able to compete.  We've got half the season, and let's hope he turns it around.  If I were him, I'd try to lock in possession by possession, and then hopefully he can expand his minutes.  

[BobSaccamanno]

4 hours ago, Reacher said:

I'm beginning to think this as well. CuJo has already left.  Davis came to play for Crean. Is he upset over how things are going? Thought he really bought in over the summer but not seeing the results.  Is Green happy? And the freshman- do they think they should be getting more PT?

This could be true.  I would not want to see Davis or Green go because I think they have potential, and we have had to absorb the time we are witnessing watching them learn.  It kind of sucks to watch someone get trained and then go somewhere else where they benefit from it.  Good size like Davis has is hard to find.  It's hard to imagine he'd find a better system for him than what Archie will do for him.  Archie will feed him all day.  If he goes to a high flying speed team, that makes no sense with his skill set.  Regarding Green, he can learn a lot about the right way to play from a former point guard in Archie and a great teacher of guards in Schilling.  I think Green comes out of this on the other side having been better for what he's learning right now.

But, at the end of the day, none of these kids are good enough that we would lose any sleep over them leaving.  On the plus side, it would give Archie an opportunity to get better fits in here.