IU_Realist Posted February 15 Report Share Posted February 15 (edited) 20 minutes ago, IUJoe said: X is an enigma. I’ve seen him in warmups where, even with that broken shot, he’ll take a couple dozen three-pointers and hardly miss any. Next game he can’t hit the broad side of a barn. Floor game is the same way. Yeah and he shouldn’t have rolled him out here because he is a huge part of the problem. He isn’t a leader, never has been. He is chaotic, volatile, inconsistent, etc. Everything you don’t want in a leader. That’s his decision on the players he has been bringing into the program. The wrong ones. However that’s not the only issue. Our offensive system is archaic and not a fit for modern day basketball. It’s been throw down in the post and everyone watching. We got away with it because we had a AA at center the last couple of seasons but it also limited us. We had zero to limited movement off the ball. The better college teams have movement. Watch Painter. It’s a beauty to watch. He will roll out the ball next year and be successful because he has a defined system and recruits players to that system. Watch Tennessee. Watch Gonzaga. And the list goes on. Culture. What is it? Not defense as we get worse every year at it. This is worse than Tom Crean defensively. No idea what it is. Not toughness as Edey and others are diving for loose balls and we aren’t. Defense. It isn’t getting better but worse. Maybe he should have kept Fife. I don’t buy the BS Woodson and others were pushing. It’s just people covering their asses. Player Development - don’t see it Edited February 15 by IU_Realist 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IUskim Posted February 15 Report Share Posted February 15 I’m not on the fire Woodson train yet just because I hate going thru firing coaches and if we fire Woodson that will be 5 coaching changes and I’m under 40 which is just not acceptable for a blue blood program. With all that said if we do fire Woodson after this season then so be it. I will say the next coach has to be right and he has to win immediately. We cannot have the patience to be oh let’s give him such and such years to build this. There is no more time for that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KoB2011 Posted February 15 Report Share Posted February 15 1 hour ago, IUFLA said: Let me just ask this... If Dolson were to entertain letting Mike Woodson go, would it be because of A) his overall body of work Or B) the record this year ? 47 minutes ago, IUFLA said: So making the tournament, for the first time in 6 years and going back to back for the first time since 2016 means nothing? Really? You expected a coach to come in and immediately go what? Final 4? Mike Woodson may eventually get fired from Indiana... But he'll be back next season unless he doesn't want to. And that's only fair... I'll just say this, and then go back to shutting up for a while.... I think it would be 'C', which is not all of the above. It would be because when Scott Dolson (and the powers that be) look at the trajectory of the program, and where they think the program can grow to under Mike Woodson, they do not think he is the best man for the job. I'm not going to argue reasons why they may or may not feel that way, those have been argued plenty, but whatever their conclusion is on that would drive the decision IMO. And secondly, in terms of fairness, I don't think it matters what is fair to Mike Woodson. I do agree that another year is fair to Mike Woodson, but what is fair to Mike Woodson may not align with what is fair to the program and sometimes folks in leadership position don't get a fair runway because the leaders above them have to be fair to everyone else in the organization. That is true in sports, business, or anything else. I know that's not how things have always worked and we can argue back and forth all day about if that is how it should work (and actually may agree on how it should work more than you'd think), but the reality that is how things work at this point in time at most organizations. My $.02, now I'll go back to shutting up and letting folks not deal with me for a while. 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NCHoosier32 Posted February 15 Report Share Posted February 15 30 minutes ago, IU_Realist said: Newton wasn’t a difference maker. He is a frosh. We sucked with X as well prior to all his injuries. this this this Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dgambill Posted February 15 Report Share Posted February 15 13 hours ago, Indykev said: Which is why losing to us twice got him fired. We are so low that losing to us is the equivalent of losing….well to us…the football us that is lol. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dgambill Posted February 15 Report Share Posted February 15 1 hour ago, IUFLA said: So making the tournament, for the first time in 6 years and going back to back for the first time since 2016 means nothing? Really? You expected a coach to come in and immediately go what? Final 4? Mike Woodson may eventually get fired from Indiana... But he'll be back next season unless he doesn't want to. And that's only fair... Life ain’t fair…we all know that. Mike will get over it…if not well we can listen to him on the radio like Dackich. In all honesty the ncaa tournament is such a low bar…it’s the minimum that should be expected. In the end it will be about the program…is it headed in the right direction…is Mike the guy that will fix it. I can answer one of those…only Dolson is around the program enough to answer the other. No choice but to trust he will do the right thing….especially since they spared no expense to fire Allen and pay his huge payout…I feel confident they would move on from Woody if they felt they weren’t confident he is still the guy to lead us back. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bowhunter Posted February 15 Report Share Posted February 15 (edited) If Ohio st gets Dusty May, we may have been better off losing those two games to them lol. Dolson hired Woody. He’s not going to fire him this quick . If he was another administration's hire, there is a real good chance Woody would be fired IMO. Edited February 15 by Bowhunter 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
13th&Jackson Posted February 15 Report Share Posted February 15 14 hours ago, Indykev said: 22 minutes ago, dgambill said: Which is why losing to us twice got him fired. We are so low that losing to us is the equivalent of losing….well to us…the football us that is lol. And that is IU's one Quad 1 win 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
13th&Jackson Posted February 15 Report Share Posted February 15 1 hour ago, Fkfootball said: Rabjohns said that he's been told that Woodson will get a 4th year. I guess unless the wheels come off. If we suck next season, I hope the fanbase go after Dolson and Buckner. This is insanity. No, it's not "fair" to give him another season. He's had 3 and our program sucks. It's telling that this is even being asked and answered 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Indykev Posted February 15 Report Share Posted February 15 Woodson''s buyout after 3 years he would be owed 100% of his remaining contact of 12.6 million. If fired after year 4 buyout is half of remaining contract, which would be 4.2 million. Do the math. Woodson will be back. 1 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IndySportsPartizan Posted February 15 Report Share Posted February 15 53 minutes ago, IUskim said: I’m not on the fire Woodson train yet just because I hate going thru firing coaches and if we fire Woodson that will be 5 coaching changes and I’m under 40 which is just not acceptable for a blue blood program. With all that said if we do fire Woodson after this season then so be it. I will say the next coach has to be right and he has to win immediately. We cannot have the patience to be oh let’s give him such and such years to build this. There is no more time for that. Alabama football fired 6 coaches between Bear Bryant (1983) and Nick Saban (2006). They each had 3 years, 4 years, 7 years, 4 years, 2 years, and 4 years. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
13th&Jackson Posted February 15 Report Share Posted February 15 1 minute ago, Indykev said: Woodson''s buyout after 3 years he would be owed 100% of his remaining contact of 12.6 million. If fired after year 4 buyout is half of remaining contract, which would be 4.2 million. Do the math. Woodson will be back. And potentially a lame duck coach 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IndySportsPartizan Posted February 15 Report Share Posted February 15 (edited) 7 minutes ago, Indykev said: Woodson''s buyout after 3 years he would be owed 100% of his remaining contact of 12.6 million. If fired after year 4 buyout is half of remaining contract, which would be 4.2 million. Do the math. Woodson will be back. Someone on another board did some math that showed that the settled buyout would actually be closer to 8 million due to certain circumstances. Add to that, Dusty May's buyout drops to $1 million on March 1st. Considering that Dusty's salary would likely be a little less than the $4.5 million that Woody gets, it would all end up being close to a wash after a few years. Compare to Ohio State, owing Holtmann 12.5 million and if they want Oats (12 million) or McDermott (3-4 million?). IU would be getting out just fine. Schertz's buyout is $250,000 Edited February 15 by IndySportsPartizan 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hoosierdave Posted February 15 Report Share Posted February 15 1 hour ago, Fkfootball said: Rabjohns said that he's been told that Woodson will get a 4th year. I guess unless the wheels come off. If we suck next season, I hope the fanbase go after Dolson and Buckner. This is insanity. No, it's not "fair" to give him another season. He's had 3 and our program sucks. Not surprised at all. Terrified at the idea of us losing a bunch to end the season, Malik and Liam dip, Queen goes elsewhere, and we end up with a Maryland type attendance next year as a bottom feeder B10 team. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cybergates Posted February 15 Report Share Posted February 15 2 hours ago, IUFLA said: Let me just ask this... If Dolson were to entertain letting Mike Woodson go, would it be because of A) his overall body of work Or B) the record this year ? A) and B) in the sense that his overall body of work combined with the record this year is trending in the wrong direction. Overall body of work is averaging a ranking of 50 which is mediocre at best. .617 winning percentage overall isn't terrible but .509 in B1G isn't acceptable to me for an IU coach barring a massive rebuild that wasn't the case here. My main reasons would be that we can't be trending in the wrong direction with a 66 year old coach and hope if he's given enough time he'll turn it around. Even if he does then he'd be ready or close to leaving anyway. I would much rather turn it around with someone else who can be here long term. Year 1 for Woodson and Year 4 for Archie are incredibly similar. JHS & TJD combined to get us a 2 win improvement in Year 2 and now in Year 3 any way you look at it it is the worst season of Woodson's tenure and arguably the worst season since 2010 (debatable vs. 2021 (Miller fired), 2011 (Crean 3rd season of massive rebuild)). The offense is as bad at it ever was w/ Archie and his defense has dropped 30-40ranks each year thus far. Personally, it feels like we are losing the state to Turdue and if we don't get an energetic leader with an appealing style of play soon it will take a long time to recover on the upcoming recruiting misses that are likely to happen with Woodson in place and a cloud of uncertainty hanging over him (performance and/or age related, take your pick). Lastly, I was watching the IU/Turdue game, my 6 year old son who has become a big IU fan and Turdue "hater". After the game started getting away from us he said to me, "Dad, my brain is telling me I should be rooting for Purdue. I "hate" Purdue and don't want to root for them. Why is my brain telling me to root for them?" Makes me sad that my son hasn't gotten to experience much reason to root for IU at all other than he likes them because I do. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IU_Realist Posted February 15 Report Share Posted February 15 8 minutes ago, cybergates said: A) and B) in the sense that his overall body of work combined with the record this year is trending in the wrong direction. Overall body of work is averaging a ranking of 50 which is mediocre at best. .617 winning percentage overall isn't terrible but .509 in B1G isn't acceptable to me for an IU coach barring a massive rebuild that wasn't the case here. My main reasons would be that we can't be trending in the wrong direction with a 66 year old coach and hope if he's given enough time he'll turn it around. Even if he does then he'd be ready or close to leaving anyway. I would much rather turn it around with someone else who can be here long term. Year 1 for Woodson and Year 4 for Archie are incredibly similar. JHS & TJD combined to get us a 2 win improvement in Year 2 and now in Year 3 any way you look at it it is the worst season of Woodson's tenure and arguably the worst season since 2010 (debatable vs. 2021 (Miller fired), 2011 (Crean 3rd season of massive rebuild)). The offense is as bad at it ever was w/ Archie and his defense has dropped 30-40ranks each year thus far. Personally, it feels like we are losing the state to Turdue and if we don't get an energetic leader with an appealing style of play soon it will take a long time to recover on the upcoming recruiting misses that are likely to happen with Woodson in place and a cloud of uncertainty hanging over him (performance and/or age related, take your pick). Lastly, I was watching the IU/Turdue game, my 6 year old son who has become a big IU fan and Turdue "hater". After the game started getting away from us he said to me, "Dad, my brain is telling me I should be rooting for Purdue. I "hate" Purdue and don't want to root for them. Why is my brain telling me to root for them?" Makes me sad that my son hasn't gotten to experience much reason to root for IU at all other than he likes them because I do. Sad right? Purdue from just a basketball standpoint is so much more enjoyable to watch. It’s sad as an IU graduate to say that. I made the joke to someone that Woodson actually makes me miss Crean. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seeking6 Posted February 15 Report Share Posted February 15 1 hour ago, IU_Realist said: Newton wasn’t a difference maker. He is a frosh. We sucked with X as well prior to all his injuries. We must have been watching a different X in the BTT down the stretch in 22 because he was the reason we came back and beat Michigan, beat Illinois, and if it wasn't for the crap vs Iowa we play in BTT Championship. Saying X sucked just isn't accurate. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IUFLA Posted February 15 Report Share Posted February 15 48 minutes ago, HoosierDPU95 said: Good post. For me, debating opinions (in this case the optimists vs the pessimists) is healthy and entertaining. As long as those opinions are about relevant topics (the system, player development, recruiting, line-ups, why Purdue sucks). When the opinions shifts to the irrelevant things (he's not animated enough, he says "hump" too much, why is the assistant AD on the bench, etc) that's when the debate drifts into the "absurd" for me. Exactly... 17 minutes ago, dgambill said: Which is why losing to us twice got him fired. We are so low that losing to us is the equivalent of losing….well to us…the football us that is lol. Come on...16-19 5-15 in the conference last year, and 14-11 and 4-10 this year is what got him fired... You choosing to portray it as losing to us twice is BS... 6 minutes ago, dgambill said: Life ain’t fair…we all know that. Mike will get over it…if not well we can listen to him on the radio like Dackich. In all honesty the ncaa tournament is such a low bar…it’s the minimum that should be expected. In the end it will be about the program…is it headed in the right direction…is Mike the guy that will fix it. I can answer one of those…only Dolson is around the program enough to answer the other. No choice but to trust he will do the right thing….especially since they spared no expense to fire Allen and pay his huge payout…I feel confident they would move on from Woody if they felt they weren’t confident he is still the guy to lead us back. When you haven't been to the NCAA in 6 years, I'd say it's an appropriate bar... For any coach coming in... Improving to a 4 seed and a 2nd place finish in the Big 10 last year was also a step forward... That's really not debatable... The rest of your comments are at least fair... I'll just say this... It takes 3 things to field a winning team in almost anything, but we'll just stick to basketball here... Talent, experience, and leadership... I don't buy the "scheme" argument 100% because over the years I've seen all different kinds of schemes win... From Arkansas' 40 minutes of hell to Dean Smith playing keep away... Almost all schemes work if you have the talent and it's executed as planned. I've quoted quite a few people in the know who'll vouch for Mike Woodson's coaching chops... And he didn't just forget how to coach over night... That normally gets countered with something like a Tony Adragna tweet about how bad we are... And I'm sorry @tdhoosier but I can't think of any other word to use to that except absurd. Do you know how many games Adragna has been a head coach above the middle school level? Same as me... Zero... And that's not really a knock on the guy... He's trying to carve out a niche and make some money on the Internet... I applaud him... What I don't applaud is using him to prop up a lame argument that a guy with 100X the resume and experience doesn't know what he's doing... And it's not the Xs and Os anyway... It's the Jimmies and Joes or so I've been told... Even by those that cite the scheme... So talent, experience, and leadership... Talent we have... Especially in the frontcourt... I'm not quite as sold as some that Ware is ready for the NBA, but I think he, Malik, and Mac are talented kids. You can of course question the backcourt, but if Trey could shoot it like he did last year, and become more consistent overall, especially on the road, he has enough talent on both sides of the ball to succeed. As does XJ... We've sent what he can be, but we've also seen at any interruption he reverts to playing poorly... Both last year and this year he didn't start well (and part of this year was coming off the injury) and then he has the ankle and the elbow issues. Even if he does come back, I'm not sure there's enough time for him to gear up to what we know he can be... Experience... We lack there in the starting lineup, particularly with Gabe in there... Ohio State suffered from the same thing this year, but to be honest, I thought Holtmann handled last year so poorly in trying to mesh super talented freshmen with experienced players and it bled into this year. And like us, OSU has no real on the court leadership... I think Thornton tries, but leadership is like any other task... The more you do it, normally the better you get... And I'll never base much on metrics or trending... Play it out and let's see... 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tdhoosier Posted February 15 Report Share Posted February 15 7 minutes ago, IUFLA said: It takes 3 things to field a winning team in almost anything, but we'll just stick to basketball here... Talent, experience, and leadership... I don't buy the "scheme" argument 100% because over the years I've seen all different kinds of schemes win... From Arkansas' 40 minutes of hell to Dean Smith playing keep away... Almost all schemes work if you have the talent and it's executed as planned. Very much disagree with this paragraph. This is kind of like saying you need 3 things to make the best chocolate chip cookie in the world: eggs, brown sugar and chocolate chips. Sure, you need those items, but you also need other ingredients, measurements, oven temperature and most importantly: the baker. Good coaches can do more with less. Plain and simple. 5 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IU_Realist Posted February 15 Report Share Posted February 15 2 minutes ago, tdhoosier said: Very much disagree with this paragraph. This is kind of like saying you need 3 things to make the best chocolate chip cookie in the world: eggs, brown sugar and chocolate chips. Sure, you need those items, but you also need other ingredients, measurements, oven temperature and most importantly: the baker. Good coaches can do more with less. Plain and simple. Or have a system in place where they can make tweeks with personnel, etc and continue to be successful. We don’t have that. We have a coach running a shitty offensive system and doesn’t realize in the NBA you have playmakers all over. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IUFLA Posted February 15 Report Share Posted February 15 2 minutes ago, tdhoosier said: Very much disagree with this paragraph. This is kind of like saying you need 3 things to make the best chocolate chip cookie in the world: eggs, brown sugar and chocolate chips. Sure, you need those items, but you also need other ingredients, measurements, oven temperature and most importantly: the baker. Good coaches can do more with less. Plain and simple. I'm not sure that's a good analogy... Baking and basketball are quite a bit different... And of course a good coach can make a difference... The old "he can take his and beat yours, then take yours and beat his" can apply... But Jay Wright doesn't win big without those 3 things... Neither does Self, or Izzo, or Knight for that matter... Coach Knight's greatest team had talent (Benson, May) experience (Buckner, May, Wilkerson, Abernathy), and leadership (Buckner)... That's absolutely what made them great... Did Coach Knight have a great effect on them? Absolutely, but let's just say he didn't have bad eggs and old flour to work with... 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IUFLA Posted February 15 Report Share Posted February 15 I'll end my participation in the discussion with this... If the time comes that Scott Dolson decides Mike Woodson isn't the guy to lead our program, I'll be behind the decision 100%... And I'll get behind whoever it is he decides to hire 100%, even if I have reservations like I did with Sampson... Until then, GO HOOSIERS! 6 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NotIThatLives Posted February 15 Report Share Posted February 15 2 hours ago, NCHoosier32 said: this this this I think we all had all our fingers crossed that X would regain his magic from the last 6 games of 21-22 when he avg like 17, 6 assist 1.5 turnovers and was sticky glue on defense. The broken foot and all the stuff this year, sadly he's a shell of that. And it's been totally true he's never been a leader. We put all the leadership on Trey. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dgambill Posted February 15 Report Share Posted February 15 1 hour ago, Indykev said: Woodson''s buyout after 3 years he would be owed 100% of his remaining contact of 12.6 million. If fired after year 4 buyout is half of remaining contract, which would be 4.2 million. Do the math. Woodson will be back. Allen was owed 20+ million and it would have been half next year….do the math Woody will go if they don’t want him. He is here only if they think he deserves another year. It isn’t about money with IU in this situation….feel it’s about his ties to admin but not the money. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NCHoosier32 Posted February 15 Report Share Posted February 15 4 minutes ago, NotIThatLives said: I think we all had all our fingers crossed that X would regain his magic from the last 6 games of 21-22 when he avg like 17, 6 assist 1.5 turnovers and was sticky glue on defense. The broken foot and all the stuff this year, sadly he's a shell of that. And it's been totally true he's never been a leader. We put all the leadership on Trey. to be honest, i was actually surprised at how bad X was at the beginning of the season before the injury and just a little surprised at how bad he was after the injury. from a talent perspective he is better than any other guard we have, but it's just not working. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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