Coach Mike Woodson Megathread

[ledies22]

2 hours ago, KoB2011 said:

We are currently tracking towards the worst IU team in your lifetime, sans Crean's first three years. If you think that is the best anyone could do with this group then that's a whole different indictment for a team with our recruiting and NIL budget.

 

Do you think the NIL has given more power to the top 10 or so schools or evened out the playing field a bit more?

[KoB2011]

6 minutes ago, ledies22 said:

Do you think the NIL has given more power to the top 10 or so schools or evened out the playing field a bit more?

I think having a big NIL budget helps, which we have for basketball by all accounts.

[Kdug]

7 minutes ago, ledies22 said:

Do you think the NIL has given more power to the top 10 or so schools or evened out the playing field a bit more?

The portal plus NIL has definitely given more power to big schools, at least in terms of being able to reload on talent. A school like IU can now outbid a lot of other schools for high level players. And a lot of those high level players can be experienced college players instead of high school seniors.

[13th&Jackson]

17 minutes ago, ledies22 said:

Do you think the NIL has given more power to the top 10 or so schools or evened out the playing field a bit more?

The obvious beneficiaries are Purdue (keeping Edey another year), AZ (Love), Kansas (Dickinson) and TN (Knecht). 

[Steubenhoosier]

3 hours ago, KoB2011 said:

We are currently tracking towards the worst IU team in your lifetime, sans Crean's first three years. If you think that is the best anyone could do with this group then that's a whole different indictment for a team with our recruiting and NIL budget.

 

During his lifetime....yes.

The 76-77 team ended with a record of 14-13 that was adjusted to 16-11 because Minnesota had to forfeit all their games, including two wins against us. This included a 17 point beatdown by Purdue in AH.

Yes, we were coming off what should have been 2 consecutive undefeated seasons, and RMK certainly had earned a down year, but that still doesn't explain away the fact that when a team loses a huge amount of talent, like both that team and this year's team, there is going to be a drop off. Has CMW deserved to see it through this year? I think so. We'll end up better than 14-13, for sure. Did RMK's system suddenly not work, or had he not built a good roster? What do you think?

And before you bring up the talent on this team, that 76-77 team still had an All-American in Benson. Woodson averaged 18.5 ppg as a freshman. Glen Grunwald, who RMK stated several times was the best player he ever recruited before he got hurt, was a freshman. Wayne Radford (RIP) was a solid player who was drafted and played for the Pacers. The team was not bereft of talent.

When a team was as dependent on one or two players as last year's was, and those guys leave, there absolutely is going to be an adjustment. Indictment or no, off seasons happen. And I happen to believe that this year does not mean that the state of IU basketball is falling off a cliff.

 

[ledies22]

34 minutes ago, KoB2011 said:

I think having a big NIL budget helps, which we have for basketball by all accounts.

 

30 minutes ago, Kdug said:

The portal plus NIL has definitely given more power to big schools, at least in terms of being able to reload on talent. A school like IU can now outbid a lot of other schools for high level players. And a lot of those high level players can be experienced college players instead of high school seniors.

IDK. I think it has leveled the playing field. 

Not leveled, but evened out more in terms of recruiting.

Edited January 29 by ledies22

[IUJoe]

16 minutes ago, Steubenhoosier said:

During his lifetime....yes.

The 76-77 team ended with a record of 14-13 that was adjusted to 16-11 because Minnesota had to forfeit all their games, including two wins against us. This included a 17 point beatdown by Purdue in AH.

Yes, we were coming off what should have been 2 consecutive undefeated seasons, and RMK certainly had earned a down year, but that still doesn't explain away the fact that when a team loses a huge amount of talent, like both that team and this year's team, there is going to be a drop off. Has CMW deserved to see it through this year? I think so. We'll end up better than 14-13, for sure. Did RMK's system suddenly not work, or had he not built a good roster? What do you think?

And before you bring up the talent on this team, that 76-77 team still had an All-American in Benson. Woodson averaged 18.5 ppg as a freshman. Glen Grunwald, who RMK stated several times was the best player he ever recruited before he got hurt, was a freshman. Wayne Radford (RIP) was a solid player who was drafted and played for the Pacers. The team was not bereft of talent.

When a team was as dependent on one or two players as last year's was, and those guys leave, there absolutely is going to be an adjustment. Indictment or no, off seasons happen. And I happen to believe that this year does not mean that the state of IU basketball is falling off a cliff.

 

Remember that year well even though I was still a kid.  Yes, even though 4 starters had graduated, the 76-77 team had talent.  It was pre-season #5 in the country.  It was a shocking season after 2 undefeated regular seasons, for sure.

[KoB2011]

25 minutes ago, Steubenhoosier said:

During his lifetime....yes.

The 76-77 team ended with a record of 14-13 that was adjusted to 16-11 because Minnesota had to forfeit all their games, including two wins against us. This included a 17 point beatdown by Purdue in AH.

Yes, we were coming off what should have been 2 consecutive undefeated seasons, and RMK certainly had earned a down year, but that still doesn't explain away the fact that when a team loses a huge amount of talent, like both that team and this year's team, there is going to be a drop off. Has CMW deserved to see it through this year? I think so. We'll end up better than 14-13, for sure. Did RMK's system suddenly not work, or had he not built a good roster? What do you think?

And before you bring up the talent on this team, that 76-77 team still had an All-American in Benson. Woodson averaged 18.5 ppg as a freshman. Glen Grunwald, who RMK stated several times was the best player he ever recruited before he got hurt, was a freshman. Wayne Radford (RIP) was a solid player who was drafted and played for the Pacers. The team was not bereft of talent.

When a team was as dependent on one or two players as last year's was, and those guys leave, there absolutely is going to be an adjustment. Indictment or no, off seasons happen. And I happen to believe that this year does not mean that the state of IU basketball is falling off a cliff.

 

I think college basketball has changed a to in nearly 40 years.

I am not ready to concede that this team is better than the ‘77 team, but we will see how the season plays out. Saying this is the second worst team since before Knight instead of the first (sans the Crean teams that had baseball players) doesn’t exactly change my opinion though.

At current moment I would have the ‘77 team easily ahead of this team FWIW.

I don’t really know anything about falling off of a cliff, but my personal judgement about things isn’t really just this year. We don’t run a good system and haven’t for 7 years now. It wasn’t a good system last year, it just had two amazing players and a few more really good veteran players 

We got rid of Tom Crean in large part because his system was too dependent on having the right guys and he couldn’t adjust, but his highs were higher than Woodson and his lows don’t appear to be as low (this can change, would love to see Woody make adjustments and make me look silly).

I wasn’t born in ‘77 but I doubt anyone thought Knight didn’t have high enough peaks or couldn’t adjust and innovate. 

 

[KoB2011]

22 minutes ago, ledies22 said:

 

IDK. I think it has leveled the playing field. 

Not leveled, but evened out more in terms of recruiting.

So you think NIL has helped the teams with less money? 

[Hoosierinbham]

33 minutes ago, Steubenhoosier said:

During his lifetime....yes.

The 76-77 team ended with a record of 14-13 that was adjusted to 16-11 because Minnesota had to forfeit all their games, including two wins against us. This included a 17 point beatdown by Purdue in AH.

Yes, we were coming off what should have been 2 consecutive undefeated seasons, and RMK certainly had earned a down year, but that still doesn't explain away the fact that when a team loses a huge amount of talent, like both that team and this year's team, there is going to be a drop off. Has CMW deserved to see it through this year? I think so. We'll end up better than 14-13, for sure. Did RMK's system suddenly not work, or had he not built a good roster? What do you think?

And before you bring up the talent on this team, that 76-77 team still had an All-American in Benson. Woodson averaged 18.5 ppg as a freshman. Glen Grunwald, who RMK stated several times was the best player he ever recruited before he got hurt, was a freshman. Wayne Radford (RIP) was a solid player who was drafted and played for the Pacers. The team was not bereft of talent.

When a team was as dependent on one or two players as last year's was, and those guys leave, there absolutely is going to be an adjustment. Indictment or no, off seasons happen. And I happen to believe that this year does not mean that the state of IU basketball is falling off a cliff.

 

Great perspective.  This year has been so frustrating,  but it's a reminder when generational talent AND leadership graduate, there is a void that is hard to replace. Not saying TJD was Buckner, May, and company,  but leadership wise, he was exceptional.

We replaced most of the talent in the post with Ware and a much improved Reneau. However,  no one has TJD's ability to lead. The glaring hole at lead scoring guard is obvious,  but the lack of leadership is equally detrimental. 

[13th&Jackson]

4 minutes ago, KoB2011 said:

I think college basketball has changed a ton in nearly 40 years. 

 

Yes it has. So much is now about winning the offseason. 

I've used this example before. Youngstown St. went to the NIT last year. This year they added 10 new players, seven transfers and three freshmen. They returned two players from last year's rotation and they were new last year. 

They started a bit shaky, but have since been on a role. They are now 14-6, 8-3 in the Horizon, tied with Oakland for second. 

Youngstown State had another busy offseason in the transfer portal, this time assembling a roster that includes just two players from last year’s rotation and nine newcomers (ended up being 10).

Such is life these days in college basketball, and the YSU coaching staff says it likes what the portal yielded once again.

“It’s very similar to last year,” YSU coach Jerrod Calhoun said. “We had some specific needs. Obviously this year was a little bigger class. The biggest thing I looked for in the portal was for guys that have won. We certainly have done that. … We’ve got a lot of guys that are used to winning. We wanted to get old, and we’ve got one of the oldest rosters in college basketball.”

"We are extremely excited to welcome these nine players (later added another freshman) to our Penguins family," Calhoun said. "My staff and I have worked tireless throughout the spring to identify players that fit our culture, style of play, and winning tradition. We feel this group, along with our returnees and fall signees, could be our deepest and most athletic team in my tenure.

[Hoosier4Life53]

Like they say in politics…”it’s the economy, stupid”. In our case…”it’s guard play, stupid”.

 

 

 

 

[BGleas]

59 minutes ago, ledies22 said:

 

IDK. I think it has leveled the playing field. 

Not leveled, but evened out more in terms of recruiting.

I think the answer is that you're both probably right. 

This is all hypothetical. But...

Take Knect and Tennessee as an example. Obviously TN is a big school, like Indiana. But I'd imagine most of TN's NIL money goes to football. So, IU probably has more for basketball. 

I'd imagine that Tennessee would have a tough time outbidding Indiana for guys like JHS, TJD, Mgbako, Ware, etc. 

But with a guy like Knect who came from a mid/low major, TN might actually be able to outbid IU. 

Knect might get top dollar from TN's budget, but maybe be something like 6th on Indiana's roster for NIL. 

So while Indiana probably has more money, it doesn't mean we have more money for everyone we're recruiting. 

[ledies22]

19 minutes ago, BGleas said:

I think the answer is that you're both probably right. 

This is all hypothetical. But...

Take Knect and Tennessee as an example. Obviously TN is a big school, like Indiana. But I'd imagine most of TN's NIL money goes to football. So, IU probably has more for basketball. 

I'd imagine that Tennessee would have a tough time outbidding Indiana for guys like JHS, TJD, Mgbako, Ware, etc. 

But with a guy like Knect who came from a mid/low major, TN might actually be able to outbid IU. 

Knect might get top dollar from TN's budget, but maybe be something like 6th on Indiana's roster for NIL. 

So while Indiana probably has more money, it doesn't mean we have more money for everyone we're recruiting. 

yes. And on top of that it seems like IU stays away from the bidding wars. Then if a players says i want a cool hard $1M. Yes we could pay that, but so can Kansas, Kentucky, Duke, UNC, and a slew of others, then it comes down to other factors where we dont win regardless of money.

[Kdug]

4 minutes ago, ledies22 said:

yes. And on top of that it seems like IU stays away from the bidding wars. Then if a players says i want a cool hard $1M. Yes we could pay that, but so can Kansas, Kentucky, Duke, UNC, and a slew of others, then it comes down to other factors where we dont win regardless of money.

We weren’t recruiting in the same league as Kansas, Kentucky, Duke, and UNC before NIL. Meanwhile we just won a head to head recruiting battle with Kansas for Mbagko, and we just got Ware who was one of the more sought after players in the portal. I’d be very surprised if both of them didn’t get significant NIL commitments - so I don’t think it’s accurate to say IU isn’t getting in NIL bidding wars.

Woodson definitely deserves credit for the improved recruiting. But I also don’t think it’s a coincidence that we’ve had some of our highest rated out of state recruits in a long time right after NIL became a thing.

[KoB2011]

2 minutes ago, Kdug said:

We weren’t recruiting in the same league as Kansas, Kentucky, Duke, and UNC before NIL. Meanwhile we just won a head to head recruiting battle with Kansas for Mbagko, and we just got Ware who was one of the more sought after players in the portal. I’d be very surprised if both of them didn’t get significant NIL commitments - so I don’t think it’s accurate to say IU isn’t getting in NIL bidding wars.

Woodson definitely deserves credit for the improved recruiting. But I also don’t think it’s a coincidence that we’ve had some of our highest rated out of state recruits in a long time right after NIL became a thing.

Liam was H2H with Kansas too wasn’t he?

To @BGleaspoint about a guy like Knecht I get it, but that’s on the staff to prioritize the right guys with top dollars. I’m also not convinced Knecht and Ledlum didn’t look at the system and decide to go elsewhere. Ware and Sparks being brought in was probably pretty confusing to guys we were recruiting and telling we wanted to play 4 out around Malik. 

[ledies22]

3 minutes ago, Kdug said:

We weren’t recruiting in the same league as Kansas, Kentucky, Duke, and UNC before NIL. Meanwhile we just won a head to head recruiting battle with Kansas for Mbagko, and we just got Ware who was one of the more sought after players in the portal. I’d be very surprised if both of them didn’t get significant NIL commitments - so I don’t think it’s accurate to say IU isn’t getting in NIL bidding wars.

Woodson definitely deserves credit for the improved recruiting. But I also don’t think it’s a coincidence that we’ve had some of our highest rated out of state recruits in a long time right after NIL became a thing.

I am only regurgitating what I am reading on here. On numerous occasions it has been said. I don't think either MM or Ware were bidding wars.

I havent heard anything surrounding JHS, MR, McNeeley, MM in terms of coming here because we were the highest bidder.

[Kdug]

37 minutes ago, BGleas said:

I think the answer is that you're both probably right. 

This is all hypothetical. But...

Take Knect and Tennessee as an example. Obviously TN is a big school, like Indiana. But I'd imagine most of TN's NIL money goes to football. So, IU probably has more for basketball. 

I'd imagine that Tennessee would have a tough time outbidding Indiana for guys like JHS, TJD, Mgbako, Ware, etc. 

But with a guy like Knect who came from a mid/low major, TN might actually be able to outbid IU. 

Knect might get top dollar from TN's budget, but maybe be something like 6th on Indiana's roster for NIL. 

So while Indiana probably has more money, it doesn't mean we have more money for everyone we're recruiting. 

I know this was a hypothetical scenario, but if Knect had similar interest in IU and Tennessee and we lost because we evaluated him that low on our NIL roster, that’d be borderline negligence by the staff. He always looked like a perfect fit that could slide right into the starting lineup as either a 2 or 3 and give us a lead scoring guard.

But if I remember that recruitment right, I don’t think he ever seriously considered IU.

[ledies22]

1 minute ago, Kdug said:

I know this was a hypothetical scenario, but if Knect had similar interest in IU and Tennessee and we lost because we evaluated him that low on our NIL roster, that’d be borderline negligence by the staff. He always looked like a perfect fit that could slide right into the starting lineup as either a 2 or 3 and give us a lead scoring guard.

But if I remember that recruitment right, I don’t think he ever seriously considered IU.

but we have the most money, and its easier?

[BGleas]

Yeah, @KoB2011 and @Kdug I was just using the Knecht thing as a made up example/hypothetical. 

For whatever reason, I don't think IU was ever really in the Knecht recruitment. 

[Kdug]

1 minute ago, ledies22 said:

I am only regurgitating what I am reading on here. On numerous occasions it has been said. I don't think either MM or Ware were bidding wars.

I havent heard anything surrounding JHS, MR, McNeeley, MM in terms of coming here because we were the highest bidder.

I don’t think anyone ever really publicly says that NIL is the main reason for picking a school. But from what I remember hearing and reading, I’m pretty sure IU basketball is in the top 10-15 range in terms of men’s basketball NIL resources. That inherently means we’re outspending a majority of college basketball programs. It’s not like IU is only targeting 5 star players who don’t care about NIL.

[Kdug]

4 minutes ago, ledies22 said:

but we have the most money, and its easier?

What’s easier?

[KoB2011]

23 minutes ago, ledies22 said:

I am only regurgitating what I am reading on here. On numerous occasions it has been said. I don't think either MM or Ware were bidding wars.

I havent heard anything surrounding JHS, MR, McNeeley, MM in terms of coming here because we were the highest bidder.

There was a ton of talk about the bag dropping in those recruitments. 

[HoosierDPU95]

23 minutes ago, Kdug said:

I know this was a hypothetical scenario, but if Knect had similar interest in IU and Tennessee and we lost because we evaluated him that low on our NIL roster, that’d be borderline negligence by the staff. He always looked like a perfect fit that could slide right into the starting lineup as either a 2 or 3 and give us a lead scoring guard.

But if I remember that recruitment right, I don’t think he ever seriously considered IU.

Who knows what was said to them but you have to think that guards looking at our roster (from a distance) and seeing two senior guards slotted in the starting lineup probably questioned how much they would start/play.

[Kdug]

1 minute ago, HoosierDPU95 said:

Who knows what was said to them but you have to think that guards looking at our roster (from a distance) and seeing two senior guards slotted in the starting lineup probably questioned how much they would start/play.

As a point guard or combo guard yeah. But Knect is more of a 2 or 3, and we had a clear opening at the 3. We filled that spot with Mbagko, who a lot of recruiting analysts said would fit better as a 4. With Knect in particular, I’d be surprised if he didn’t come here because of playing time concerns.