IUFLA Posted February 23 Report Share Posted February 23 4 minutes ago, HoosierFaithful said: Can some of us just accept that others have a different opinion and that's okay? We all don't need to agree. This place would be pretty dull. But if you're still trying to get people to agree with you 85 pages later, consider if perhaps they never will? But if it makes you happy, keep going, by all means! Some seem to think if you disagree and present facts or an alternate opinion in rebuttal, it's somehow an "insult"... If Mike Woodson is the coach next year, and we have another year like this, I'd be very much on board with him being let go...I don't care if people agree with that or not...It's an opinion formulated on what I see as the facts and fairness... Simple as that... 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kdug Posted February 23 Report Share Posted February 23 22 minutes ago, IUFLA said: To be clear, the reason I thought CAM should get another year was the COVID deal, the fact that by all accounts we would have gone to the tournament that year, and that $10 million dollar roadblock... But I didn't know money was so cheap And saying Dolson isn't going to fire Woody right now has more to do with how that'll look to the donors/trustees, than the money part of it... I mean even if you count the Covid year as a tourney appearance, which is fair, Archie’s results were terrible. One double digit seed in 4 years (which is what we would’ve been that year), with 0 winning conference seasons is not acceptable. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kdug Posted February 23 Report Share Posted February 23 17 minutes ago, IUFLA said: OK, then...What IS the criteria? I'm just not buying that metrics, or the "it isn't that we lose, it's HOW we lose." All coaches are going to be judged on their won/loss record...I don't care how ugly it is on either side...A win is a win, and a loss is a loss...No coach is going to get fired for "winning ugly." Do you honestly think we're going to bring in a coach that will have us in the Final 4 immediately? Here's a list that addresses just that...The favored sons like Pearl (1 FF in 20 years), Beard (1 in 8 years), and Musselman (never been in 9 years). On average, it takes 10.5 years for a coach to reach the Final 4... So I'm just not real sure on what y'all want? Who’s saying they expect final fours? That’s just a straw man argument. The criteria is that you can’t have a season where we’re literally one of the 2 or 3 worst teams in the league. If you do, you better have a great recruiting class coming in that can turn it around quickly. We have neither of those things as it currently stands, which makes a lot of fans worried that this isn’t a one year blip on the radar. 3 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IUFLA Posted February 23 Report Share Posted February 23 2 minutes ago, Kdug said: I mean even if you count the Covid year as a tourney appearance, which is fair, Archie’s results were terrible. One double digit seed in 4 years (which is what we would’ve been that year), with 0 winning conference seasons is not acceptable. At Indiana, yeah...At Purdue or Wisconsin it would have gone a bit longer...And we keep saying we want a program like theirs... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IUFLA Posted February 23 Report Share Posted February 23 3 minutes ago, Kdug said: Who’s saying they expect final fours? That’s just a straw man argument. The criteria is that you can’t have a season where we’re literally one of the 2 or 3 worst teams in the league. If you do, you better have a great recruiting class coming in that can turn it around quickly. We have neither of those things as it currently stands, which makes a lot of fans worried that this isn’t a one year blip on the radar. As I said, you can't keep saying you want something while overlooking the reason schools like Purdue and Wisconsin got where they are... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IUALUM03 Posted February 23 Report Share Posted February 23 To me, it's not we are losing (although that sucks), it is how we are losing. We look unprepared, out of position, uncoached, without a plan. A good coach could take the composition of this team, although imperfect, and at least make it competitive. We are breaking down across the board and not just in one area, which is why his comments after games have been disappointing and create a lack of confidence the go forward will be any better come next season. 5 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kdug Posted February 23 Report Share Posted February 23 (edited) 9 minutes ago, IUFLA said: At Indiana, yeah...At Purdue or Wisconsin it would have gone a bit longer...And we keep saying we want a program like theirs... I love to dump on Purdue as much as the next guy, but they’ve missed the tourney 3 times since Painters second year. Wisconsin has missed the tourney 3 times since 98/99. And you’re telling me they’d be ok missing the tourney 3 out of 4 years? Absolutely no chance. Edited February 23 by Kdug 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IUProfessor Posted February 23 Report Share Posted February 23 (edited) 15 minutes ago, IUFLA said: As I said, you can't keep saying you want something while overlooking the reason schools like Purdue and Wisconsin got where they are... Those schools implemented sustainable programs tailored to the B1G and college game. They recruit 4 year guys that fit the program. That's not what Woodson has done. He's implemented a 90s style two low post offense, and has failed to develop any multi-year guards, the backbone of any successful college program. Yes, he got them back to the NCAAs, but at a program like Indiana that should be a minimal expectation, not a reason for a raise. He failed to get past the first weekend both years, and there is no particular reason to think that would change in year 4 (or beyond). And yes, he beat Purdue twice last year. But I'm not sure that you'll find a lot of support for the notion that a .500 career record vs. Purdue is the new standard of success. The problem for Woodson is that even if he gets a 4th year, it's going to be next to impossible to rebuild the necessary recruiting momentum he'd need to turn this around. He'll be viewed as a dead man walking. What top HS recruit in the '25 class would commit? For that matter, how many top portal guys are going to sign up for this given what they've seen of his scheme, and his tendency to throw his players under the bus? The danger with hiring Woodson was always that if a change needed to be made, it was going to be painful. But IU is at a point where pain is coming either way...it can either be firing a program legend after 3 years, or bringing said legend back for year 4 with little likelihood of turning it around given the recruitment challenges and schematic problems that would involve. In my opinion, the first option will sting, but not nearly as badly as the second in the long run. Edited February 23 by IUProfessor 7 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kdug Posted February 23 Report Share Posted February 23 (edited) 15 minutes ago, IUFLA said: As I said, you can't keep saying you want something while overlooking the reason schools like Purdue and Wisconsin got where they are... Those schools are where they are because they have a culture, identity, and their administration/new coaches did a good job of carrying that over from their great historical coaches. IU has none of that. It has nothing to do with firing an underperforming coach like Archie, or fans being upset that this year’s team is ranked outside of the top 100. Purdue and Wisconsin would also not accept those types of performances, but they’ve put themselves in a position where those performances don’t happen. Edited February 23 by Kdug 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KoB2011 Posted February 23 Report Share Posted February 23 1 hour ago, NotIThatLives said: I'm looking at his body of work. Literally he's doing the same thing he did in New York that got him fired 10 years ago. It's wild. You and I and a dad at the ymca could have gotten the same results the last 2 years. And remember how under utilized Parker Stewart's three point shooting was? Probably chose to forget that. We should have been better that year too. This is so spot on, the first two years were better than we had been but they weren't anything spectacular. We still go blown out regularly, we didn't come remotely close to going on a tournament run, we didn't remotely come close to winning the conference. Heck, @IUFLA you wanted Archie back because we could all see the next year was going to be better. The best thing Woodson did that first year was get the guys to come back and then not mess anything up. @IUFLA also made a clairvoyant post when we hired Woodson, comparing Woodson and Matta to Juwan Howard and Martelli. It is such a spot on comparison. Woodson deserves credit for reversing out fortunes against Purdue, but we are ~100 games into his tenure and if you took away those 3 wins, which I realize you can't, there is really nothing left at all to defend him. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KoB2011 Posted February 23 Report Share Posted February 23 48 minutes ago, IUFLA said: On average, it takes 10.5 years for a coach to reach the Final 4... So based on this, we need to wait until Woodson is 73, yeah? And he said he may not coach into his 70s.... So what are we doing? 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IU Scott Posted February 23 Report Share Posted February 23 1 hour ago, IUFLA said: Again, though, you ignore the first 2 years and why we terminated Miller... Hey, I'll be the first to say this year has been disappointing and hasn't met what I expected of the team. And that's fine. Any coach can have an off year...Beard, Pearl, Musselman have all had bad seasons...it's the way college basketball has always worked...Kids graduate/leave and new kids take their place... We always look at Wisconsin, Purdue, and Michigan State (while holding our noses) and wonder why we can't be like them...One word...We don't have stability. And firing up the coaching carousel every time we have a bad game isn't a recipe for success.... You also look past th first year where most of it was mediocre at best. We barely got into the tournament and lost in the first round by 30 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IU Scott Posted February 23 Report Share Posted February 23 53 minutes ago, HoosierFaithful said: Can some of us just accept that others have a different opinion and that's okay? We all don't need to agree. This place would be pretty dull. But if you're still trying to get people to agree with you 85 pages later, consider if perhaps they never will? But if it makes you happy, keep going, by all means! Actually about everyone in this thread agrees with each other and that it is time to move on From Woodson 2 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IU Scott Posted February 23 Report Share Posted February 23 37 minutes ago, IUALUM03 said: To me, it's not we are losing (although that sucks), it is how we are losing. We look unprepared, out of position, uncoached, without a plan. A good coach could take the composition of this team, although imperfect, and at least make it competitive. We are breaking down across the board and not just in one area, which is why his comments after games have been disappointing and create a lack of confidence the go forward will be any better come next season. It is also getting beat by 15+ points in a lot of our games. Also losing at home to teams like NW, Neb and PSU who have been terrible on the road. 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IUFLA Posted February 23 Report Share Posted February 23 14 minutes ago, IUProfessor said: The danger with hiring Woodson was always that if a change needed to be made, it was going to be painful. But IU is at a point where pain is coming either way...it can either be firing a program legend after 3 years, or bringing said legend back for year 4 with little likelihood of turning it around given the recruitment challenges and schematic problems that would involve. I don't think there's little likelihood at all...If we have Mgbako, Reneau, Cupps, Galloway back, and we add McNeely, I think that's a solid place to start from...Of course, there's a lot of unsubstantiated speculation that everyone is leaving or whatever...I personally think if Woodson is terminated, then I'm almost sure we'd be starting with a blank roster... 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IU Scott Posted February 23 Report Share Posted February 23 2 minutes ago, IUFLA said: I don't think there's little likelihood at all...If we have Mgbako, Reneau, Cupps, Galloway back, and we add McNeely, I think that's a solid place to start from...Of course, there's a lot of unsubstantiated speculation that everyone is leaving or whatever...I personally think if Woodson is terminated, then I'm almost sure we'd be starting with a blank roster... How this roster has played that might not be a bad thing. So we have one recruit in McNeely but lose one of our top players in Ware so where is the improvement coming from. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IUFLA Posted February 23 Report Share Posted February 23 2 minutes ago, IU Scott said: How this roster has played that might not be a bad thing. So we have one recruit in McNeely but lose one of our top players in Ware so where is the improvement coming from. I thought we were better off without 2 bigs on the floor? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IUProfessor Posted February 23 Report Share Posted February 23 (edited) 9 minutes ago, IUFLA said: I thought we were better off without 2 bigs on the floor? What makes you think we won't play 2 bigs? Rabby is reporting a rim protector 5 to pair with Reneau is a top portal priority for the current staff. Look, I agree that if the stars align, and everyone stays but Ware, Woodson may be able to put a decent team on the floor next year. But I don't think the odds are great that Woodson will be able to get the additions he needs to make that happen, or use those pieces schematically in a way that will significantly improve the product on the floor. And even if he does, you're still back in the same position a year from now. No top '25 HS players are signing on to play here in the fall signing period given the uncertainty. We'd have to scramble for a massive talent infusion after Mgbako, Galloway, presumably Reneau, potentially McNeeley all leave. Better to start fresh, IMO. Edited February 23 by IUProfessor Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IUFLA Posted February 23 Report Share Posted February 23 13 minutes ago, IUProfessor said: What makes you think we won't play 2 bigs? Rabby is reporting a rim protector 5 to pair with Reneau is a top portal priority for the current staff. Look, I agree that if the stars align, and everyone stays but Ware, Woodson may be able to put a decent team on the floor next year. But I don't think the odds are great that Woodson will be able to get the additions he needs to make that happen, or use those pieces schematically in a way that will significantly improve the product on the floor. And even if he does, you're still back in the same position a year from now. No top '25 HS players are signing on to play here in the fall signing period given the uncertainty. We'd have to scramble for a massive talent infusion after Mgbako, Galloway, presumably Reneau, potentially McNeeley all leave. Better to start fresh, IMO. Maybe as a backup? I always hear that we'd be better with Mac at the 4 and Reneau at the 5...And I'm not sure Sparks will ever see significant minutes at IU...My thought on him is that the very thing that DOES get him time (hustle and aggressiveness) lead to the mistakes he makes when he does play... Anyway, I guess we just have to wait and see...As I said previously, Woody isn't going to quit...And if Dolson goes to the powers that be with his hat in his hand saying he wants to buy Woody out, then he'd probably better have his own resume in order... 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NotIThatLives Posted February 23 Report Share Posted February 23 1 minute ago, IUFLA said: And if Dolson goes to the powers that be with his hat in his hand saying he wants to buy Woody out Pretty sure it's the other way around, outside of maybe Cook(based on rumor that he loves Mike Woodson) But who knows. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hoosierdave Posted February 23 Report Share Posted February 23 36 minutes ago, IUProfessor said: a rim protector 5 to pair with Reneau is a top portal priority for the current staff. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Artesian_86 Posted February 23 Report Share Posted February 23 1 hour ago, IUALUM03 said: To me, it's not we are losing (although that sucks), it is how we are losing. We look unprepared, out of position, uncoached, without a plan. A good coach could take the composition of this team, although imperfect, and at least make it competitive. We are breaking down across the board and not just in one area, which is why his comments after games have been disappointing and create a lack of confidence the go forward will be any better come next season. yes.....it's how we are losing, while progressively getting worse at times, like free throws and turnovers....just to name a few. JMO Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IndyResident16 Posted February 23 Report Share Posted February 23 (edited) 9 hours ago, NotIThatLives said: Out of respect for CMW I won't post what I just posted to you. I think there is an exit plan in place. Not sure what that looks like but this is clearly not working and CMW is not a teenager. I'm fine if CMW can stick around. Great man, great mentor. Loved by all. I want that to remain. I see 2 scenarios. CMW stays 1 more year and May comes in as offensive coordinator and declared coach in waiting. Pay May the 3 mil or whatever it takes, drop a few mil on NIL and instantly fix this trash. Or, even less likely, CMW exits gracefully into the office and we let Pearl bring 4 or 5 guys over from Auburn, again have instant reload. The optics are so bad right now. Look at the women's game last night. The fans are not the problem. It's the coaching and the product on the floor. We don't need to be reminded every day of how bad this has turned. Woodson is too stubborn to allow someone to work under him with input (see Matta and Fife) and he's too delusional to step down. Dolson has 2 options, well really 3. 1. Let Mike Woodson retire at the end of the season to save face with a negotiated buyout (most logical choice) 2. Fire Mike Woodson if he refuses the terms of option 1 3. Retain him and be prepared to join Woodson in the unemployment line at the conclusion 24-25 season. If Dolson keeps Woodson for a 4th year with all the bad optics and turmoil surrounding the program, he should be blacklisted from campus grounds. Keeping Woodson a 4th year is simply delaying the inevitable. Edited February 24 by IndyResident16 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post Kdug Posted February 23 Popular Post Report Share Posted February 23 One last point, this isn’t just a down season, this has been a historically bad season. That’s what makes me more frustrated than I otherwise would be. IU this year is scoring 72.8 pts/gm and giving up 74.9 pts/gm, for a net avg margin of -2.1. If you go back all the way to the 1970/1971 season, there are only 3 seasons with a worse margin than this. 2008/2009 (-10.5), 2009/2010 (-5.3), and 2003/2004 (-2.7). That’s 54 seasons, and this is statistically the 4th worst, with 2 of the other seasons that were worse being heavily influenced by sanctions. This season isn’t over and is trending in the wrong direction, so 2003/2004 could still end up better. A step back from last year was expected, but this has been much more than a step back. 9 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KoB2011 Posted February 23 Report Share Posted February 23 1 hour ago, Kdug said: One last point, this isn’t just a down season, this has been a historically bad season. That’s what makes me more frustrated than I otherwise would be. IU this year is scoring 72.8 pts/gm and giving up 74.9 pts/gm, for a net avg margin of -2.1. If you go back all the way to the 1970/1971 season, there are only 3 seasons with a worse margin than this. 2008/2009 (-10.5), 2009/2010 (-5.3), and 2003/2004 (-2.7). That’s 54 seasons, and this is statistically the 4th worst, with 2 of the other seasons that were worse being heavily influenced by sanctions. This season isn’t over and is trending in the wrong direction, so 2003/2004 could still end up better. A step back from last year was expected, but this has been much more than a step back. Preach, preach, preach. And to be crystal clear, the historically bad trends aren't the result of a few rough games of late, they've been there for months and the hope was we'd correct them at some point. The scoring margin itself wasn't this bad in December, but the signs that it would be when the competition picked up sure were. 8 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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