IUFLA Posted March 9 Report Share Posted March 9 2 minutes ago, IUCrazy2 said: I am fine with people piling on a little hyperbole if that is what it takes to get the decision makers to hasten his departure. And I find that despicable...And it's not "a little." 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BGleas Posted March 9 Report Share Posted March 9 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IUCrazy2 Posted March 9 Report Share Posted March 9 1 minute ago, IUFLA said: And I find that despicable...And it's not "a little." To each their own. The fanbase needs fans like you just like we need the pitchfork crowd. Keeps everyone honest. Unfortunately we are in the position where the pitchfork crowd needs to be at the forefront. If Woodson was even doing half his job you could maybe defend him for this year but he isn't, so I won't. He needs to go. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IUFLA Posted March 9 Report Share Posted March 9 2 minutes ago, IUCrazy2 said: Keeps everyone honest No it doesn't...not even close...As I said, y'all treat facts as inconveniences... 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MoyeCowbell Posted March 9 Report Share Posted March 9 Guys and gals, let's walk and chew gum at the same time here. It's ok to have cognitive dissonance that supports Woodson's development of some players while also acknowledging his lack of development with others. This is likely true with many coaches. The issue with Coach currently, is that his work isn't simply gradable on individual development. This is a team game. Now, to keep this related to the topic, it appears LM's thoughts on his development were also (somewhat) tied to CMW's ability to translate that across the team and have a cohesive product on the floor. Think about what and who McNeeley has been playing with at Montverde... he's surrounded by many high-level players, running a fluid and dynamic offense. His coach isn't just dumping the ball down to Queen, or having Flagg do everything. One could argue that the spread out and modern approach their coach utilizes is helping their success as much as the individual parts. 6 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iuswingman Posted March 9 Report Share Posted March 9 (edited) 9 hours ago, BGleas said: Fans have every right to complain when the 4 million dollar coach turns out to be worse than the 40k rec league coach down the street. Especially when that 4 million dollar coach doesn't think he has to go out recruiting or answer questions from the media. That amount of money should be enough to have a coach that isn't lazy at the very least Doyel is an idiot based simply on preview sentence since I can't read article. Of course firing the coach won't fix EVERYTHING but it will at least give us a shot at fixing the biggest anchor to the program. Edited March 9 by iuswingman 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IUCrazy2 Posted March 9 Report Share Posted March 9 17 minutes ago, IUFLA said: No it doesn't...not even close...As I said, y'all treat facts as inconveniences... What did I say that was not factual? We have these arguments too often though because our AD keeps making stupid hires. This gets as tiresome for us as it does for you. This sucks. The vast majority of springs the past 20 years we have spent on the outside looking in. That has been even more so the xase in the last decade. Woodson has done some alright things, every coach can say that. So what? We are just going to end up antagonizing each other, you guys do this every time it becomes clear a dude needs to go. I am not interested in getting pedantic with you. The overall analysis on Woodson's tenure and his likely future should he be retained another year isn't good. I don't care that he helped a couple guys get in the NBA. I care he isn't helping us get wins now and his approach to roster building is going to take a miracle not yet pulled off in the portal era to have a product worth watching next year. So I am not inclined to give a sh** about whatever small amount of credit he may deserve. In the scheme of things it doesn't matter. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BGleas Posted March 9 Report Share Posted March 9 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IUCrazy2 Posted March 9 Report Share Posted March 9 2 minutes ago, BGleas said: Doyel is Dan Dakich in print. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IUFLA Posted March 9 Report Share Posted March 9 Just now, IUCrazy2 said: What did I say that was not factual? We have these arguments too often though because our AD keeps making stupid hires. This gets as tiresome for us as it does for you. This sucks. The vast majority of springs the past 20 years we have spent on the outside looking in. That has been even more so the xase in the last decade. Woodson has done some alright things, every coach can say that. So what? We are just going to end up antagonizing each other, you guys do this every time it becomes clear a dude needs to go. I am not interested in getting pedantic with you. The overall analysis on Woodson's tenure and his likely future should he be retained another year isn't good. I don't care that he helped a couple guys get in the NBA. I care he isn't helping us get wins now and his approach to roster building is going to take a miracle not yet pulled off in the portal era to have a product worth watching next year. So I am not inclined to give a sh** about whatever small amount of credit he may deserve. In the scheme of things it doesn't matter. You stated "I am fine with people piling on a little hyperbole if that is what it takes to get the decision makers to hasten his departure." Which has turned into half truths and outright lies... I'm a "believe half of what you see, and none of what you hear" type...You have to prove it to me with facts...Not some X cut and paste from a middle school coach or any nimrod with a podcast that happens to support your agenda (not talking about you in particular but it happens) 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BGleas Posted March 9 Report Share Posted March 9 As far as development goes, I think Mike Woodson clearly helped develop TJD. Some of TJD's development was also just natural year-to-year progression, but Woodson definitely helped. Under Woodson, TJD became a better passer and ball handler, played with an improved motor, etc. Did Woodson run him through ball handling drills in the offseason? I don't know. But, I'm sure he spent a lot of time talking to him about passing, pushing the ball, etc, etc. Woodson put him in a position to be comfortable grabbing a rebound and pushing the ball, etc. With all of that said, I'd argue the opposite with Miller Kopp. I think Woodson did a terrible job developing and utilizing Kopp and some other guys. 6 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IUCrazy2 Posted March 9 Report Share Posted March 9 (edited) 17 minutes ago, IUFLA said: You stated "I am fine with people piling on a little hyperbole if that is what it takes to get the decision makers to hasten his departure." Which has turned into half truths and outright lies... I'm a "believe half of what you see, and none of what you hear" type...You have to prove it to me with facts...Not some X cut and paste from a middle school coach or any nimrod with a podcast that happens to support your agenda (not talking about you in particular but it happens) Everyone on these forums uses some hyperbole. Everyone. For the rest, I think the rumors are more just confirmation of what I myself am observing from the outside looking in. None of that is gospel. I don't think he is going to be successful because he doesn't appear to want to do the things required to be successful at this level. This isn't the NBA and what he is doing isn't going to work. But hey, I am mad about that as opposed to just throwing my hands up and saying whatever. I still think there might be a chance to see him pushed out and avoid next year if enough people stay pissed. If he is back, I will take a big step back from the program and give the more positive and forgiving crowd what they want. And that step back will be from IU athletics as a whole, which stinks because I am bought in on Cignetti at the moment but I won't give a dime or my time to IU if they keep Woodson another year. I will probably come back and hope for the best from whomever they replace him with. College basketball is my favorite sport, I am tired of having it be something that I do out of habit as opposed to it being fun. I blame IU for the not being fun part and I blame my stupidity for letting it be a habit to spend time on something that I can tell you is likely to not be much fun next year. Edited March 9 by IUCrazy2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bronkonagurski Posted March 9 Report Share Posted March 9 57 minutes ago, BGleas said: The "we" part annoys me. A fan base isn't a monolith acting and thinking in lockstep. I have no control over what anyone else says or does. The people who are toxic on social media, there is no telling them what to do. They won't listen. It isn't worth the time to worry about things you can't control. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Parakeet Jones Posted March 9 Report Share Posted March 9 32 minutes ago, IUCrazy2 said: Doyel is Dan Dakich in print. He is worse. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tdhoosier Posted March 9 Report Share Posted March 9 (edited) 28 minutes ago, BGleas said: As far as development goes, I think Mike Woodson clearly helped develop TJD. Some of TJD's development was also just natural year-to-year progression, but Woodson definitely helped. Under Woodson, TJD became a better passer and ball handler, played with an improved motor, etc. Did Woodson run him through ball handling drills in the offseason? I don't know. But, I'm sure he spent a lot of time talking to him about passing, pushing the ball, etc, etc. Woodson put him in a position to be comfortable grabbing a rebound and pushing the ball, etc. With all of that said, I'd argue the opposite with Miller Kopp. I think Woodson did a terrible job developing and utilizing Kopp and some other guys. I think Miller could’ve been utilized way better. I don’t see much development of Gunn and Banks and I don’t think they are given much of a chance to succeed because this offense isn’t good for wings (and 4’s playing the wing). Tamar Bates didn’t develop here, but is developing at Mizzou. MM has a ton of talent, but nothing he gets comes easy. With McNeely, the writing was on the wall. And if you look at successful teams in CBB they are stacked with athletic wings who are play makers. I will admit Woody has has some success at developing players at the ‘top of the pyramid’, but has been unsuccessful at developing the players who build the foundation of the program. And without any foundational pieces, It’s only a matter of time until everything from a systematic standpoint will begin collapsing. That happened this year. I don’t see it being any better next year because the cupboard is now almost complete bare. Edited March 9 by tdhoosier 7 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post BGleas Posted March 9 Popular Post Report Share Posted March 9 6 minutes ago, bronkonagurski said: The "we" part annoys me. A fan base isn't a monolith acting and thinking in lockstep. I have no control over what anyone else says or does. The people who are toxic on social media, there is no telling them what to do. They won't listen. It isn't worth the time to worry about things you can't control. Agree! My posts on the fans are also not denying that there are horrible fans on social media, etc. Of course there are. I'm just saying, the fans aren't remotely close to the problem with IU basketball. The bulk of the fan base is the biggest thing keeping this program on life support. 10 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IUFLA Posted March 9 Report Share Posted March 9 4 minutes ago, tdhoosier said: I think Miller could’ve been utilized way better. I don’t see much development of Gunn and Banks and I don’t think they are given much of a chance to succeed because this offense isn’t good for wings (and 4’s playing the wing). Tamar Bates didn’t develop here, but is developing at Mizzou. MM has a ton of talent, but nothing he gets comes easy. With McNeely, the writing was on the wall. And if you look at successful teams in CBB they are stacked with athletic wings who are play makers. I will admit Woody has has some success at developing players at the ‘top of the pyramid’, but has been unsuccessful at developing the players who build the foundation of the program. And without any foundational pieces, It’s only a matter of time until everything from a systematic standpoint will begin collapsing. That happened this year. I don’t see it being any better next year because the cupboard is now almost complete bare. You coach swimming right? And I'm sure you're good at it...But I'm also sure not every swimmer reaches his or her potential under your tutelage...Like I said, "Horse to water." You can only provide the environment, the tools, and the knowledge and guidance to help someone else succeed... I'll back Mike Woodson as a coach until the day he is no longer the basketball coach at Indiana... But I'll back him as a man til the day he dies...Just too much evidence that he's a good man with good intentions to ignore... 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
btownqb Posted March 9 Report Share Posted March 9 9 minutes ago, tdhoosier said: I think Miller could’ve been utilized way better. I don’t see much development of Gunn and Banks and I don’t think they are given much of a chance to succeed because this offense isn’t good for wings (and 4’s playing the wing). Tamar Bates didn’t develop here, but is developing at Mizzou. MM has a ton of talent, but nothing he gets comes easy. With McNeely, the writing was on the wall. And if you look at successful teams in CBB they are stacked with athletic wings who are play makers. I will admit Woody has has some success at developing players at the ‘top of the pyramid’, but has been unsuccessful at developing the players who build the foundation of the program. And without any foundational pieces, It’s only a matter of time until everything from a systematic standpoint will begin collapsing. That happened this year. I don’t see it being any better next year because the cupboard is now almost complete bare. I disagree on Miller. We saw how ineffective he was when offense ran through him at NW. He was truly only a stand still shooter, which is fine... I'm more frustrated we didn't send Race to the bench, tell JG to take a hike, and find a 4 man that was better suited to play with TJD than Race, over long stretches. If you found a 4 man that could facilitate at all, I think in turn, that would have created more opps for Miller organically. Think of the lineup you'd had-- TJD Insert a better 4 Kopp JHS XJ Bench of TG, Race, Malik, and Bates. Thats a squad. But we wanted to twiddle our thumbs with Race and JG another year. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IU Scott Posted March 9 Report Share Posted March 9 9 minutes ago, BGleas said: Agree! My posts on the fans are also not denying that there are horrible fans on social media, etc. Of course there are. I'm just saying, the fans aren't remotely close to the problem with IU basketball. The bulk of the fan base is the biggest thing keeping this program on life support. The problem is the extreme fans who are being vocal is what makes our reputation. Also the ones that goes after the coach personally and go after their families is where I would draw the line. I find nothing wrong critiquing his coaching and wanting a new coach. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IUCrazy2 Posted March 9 Report Share Posted March 9 (edited) 22 minutes ago, bronkonagurski said: The "we" part annoys me. A fan base isn't a monolith acting and thinking in lockstep. I have no control over what anyone else says or does. The people who are toxic on social media, there is no telling them what to do. They won't listen. It isn't worth the time to worry about things you can't control. Yes and I want to be clear, I am pissed and I think we have every right to express our displeasure to each other. Anybody tweeting back at an actual player is an @$$-hat. If you are so upset that it would lead to you showing up just to boo the team tomorrow, just don't go. That is the only acceptable form of (in person) protest IMO, your absence. Edited March 9 by IUCrazy2 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BGleas Posted March 9 Report Share Posted March 9 1 minute ago, btownqb said: I disagree on Miller. We saw how ineffective he was when offense ran through him at NW. He was truly only a stand still shooter, which is fine... I'm more frustrated we didn't send Race to the bench, tell JG to take a hike, and find a 4 man that was better suited to play with TJD than Race, over long stretches. If you found a 4 man that could facilitate at all, I think in turn, that would have created more opps for Miller organically. Think of the lineup you'd had-- TJD Insert a better 4 Kopp JHS XJ Bench of TG, Race, Malik, and Bates. Thats a squad. But we wanted to twiddle our thumbs with Race and JG another year. Completely agree on the 4. Easier said than done, but put a 4 like junior year Troy Williams next to TJD? Wow! Disagree with you on Kopp. I don't think anyone is saying IU should have run the offense through him by any means, but there were a multitude of more creative ways to utilize his shooting (which the team needed) other than just having him stand in the corner. 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IUCrazy2 Posted March 9 Report Share Posted March 9 5 minutes ago, btownqb said: I disagree on Miller. We saw how ineffective he was when offense ran through him at NW. He was truly only a stand still shooter, which is fine... I'm more frustrated we didn't send Race to the bench, tell JG to take a hike, and find a 4 man that was better suited to play with TJD than Race, over long stretches. If you found a 4 man that could facilitate at all, I think in turn, that would have created more opps for Miller organically. Think of the lineup you'd had-- TJD Insert a better 4 Kopp JHS XJ Bench of TG, Race, Malik, and Bates. Thats a squad. But we wanted to twiddle our thumbs with Race and JG another year. I would have put Kopp at the 4 and got a more dynamic wing. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MrsStoller Posted March 9 Report Share Posted March 9 5 minutes ago, IUCrazy2 said: Yes and I want to be clear, I am pissed and I think we have every right to express our displeasure to each other. Anybody tweeting back at an actual player is an @$$-hat. If you are so upset that it would lead to you showing up just to boo the team tomorrow, just don't go. That is the only acceptable form of (in person) protest IMO, your absence. Agreed. I also think that that form of protest, not showing up to a game, is what is most visible to the Athletic Department and those in a position to make a change. That and $$$. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BGleas Posted March 9 Report Share Posted March 9 2 minutes ago, IU Scott said: The problem is the extreme fans who are being vocal is what makes our reputation. Also the ones that goes after the coach personally and go after their families is where I would draw the line. I find nothing wrong critiquing his coaching and wanting a new coach. Agree to a large extent. Tweeting at recruits, family members, coaches, etc, should be completely out of bounds and off limits. There's no reason to get personal with players, coaches, recruits, etc. Completely agree and I don't and never have supported that. My point is, IU as a fanbase is no worse than Duke, UNC, Kansas, Michigan, OSU, etc., etc. The difference is IU's program has been a joke and completely mismanaged for 30 years. The fans are the symptom. Fixing IU's broken administration and approach to building a basketball program is preventing the disease. 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
btownqb Posted March 9 Report Share Posted March 9 (edited) 5 minutes ago, IUCrazy2 said: I would have put Kopp at the 4 and got a more dynamic wing. We already struggled rebounding. Kopp was going to play the 4 some last year, anyways, before XJ went down. But again, lack of depth screwed us. That would have also meant Kopp would have had to check some pretty damn good 4s in the B1G last year.. Edited March 9 by btownqb 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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