Butler post game

[Hoosierhoopster]

3 hours ago, bluegrassIU said:

In a non-ovid season, I could see your point. This is different.

For all anybody knows, covid can cancel a handful, or even many games. Look how abbreviated the football season has been.

If games get cancelled, they go to a reduced tournament fiels...say 32 teams or whatever.....then every win and every loss is magnified big time.

This year, I think you have to do everything in your power to win the game in front of you. It may not be the season to build towards an end of season peak. Its too unpredictable.

Fair — but do you want to put money on the table that we won’t be listening to the we don’t have shooters, the we are offensively challenged, the see look we can beat the Butlers of the world but we’re not good enough to compete at the top of the B1G because our offense is so limited, etc. arguments the second we lose our first B1G game and can’t score in it? 
it’s easy to sit back and say we need to win every game, but that’s also just conjecture, the season so far is moving fine, and when we lose because we didn’t develop the team don’t be surprised 

[Hoosierhoopster]

I find it interesting that almost no one is concerned our 5-star point guard isn’t being played, Geronimo isn’t being played, and in a game where Rob racks up 4 fouls and can’t score. Interesting, lol, for once to be the guy not pumping the koolaid and saying everything is great when there are some pretty obvious weaknesses getting glossed over 

[IU Scott]

6 minutes ago, Hoosierhoopster said:

I find it interesting that almost no one is concerned our 5-star point guard isn’t being played, Geronimo isn’t being played, and in a game where Rob racks up 4 fouls and can’t score. Interesting, lol, for once to be the guy not pumping the koolaid and saying everything is great when there are some pretty obvious weaknesses getting glossed over 

My teams on the floor and trust Archie to play who he feels that will give him the best chance.  Maybe if our fans get behind the coach and he doesn't have to worry about being on the hot seat maybe he would play young guys.

[go_iu_bb]

9 minutes ago, Hoosierhoopster said:

Why argue the extreme as a basis of a question?

Exactly when did I say a player needs a lot of minutes as the only way to improve? I mean seriously this is such a straw man it’s frankly annoying. Redshirt? What?? 
 

Lander played 2 min, Geronimo played zero. Should I respond with a silly question like do you think guys improve when they don’t play at all? Come on, if you want to have a discussion don’t throw out straw men and use that as a basis to critique a straightforward, obvious position.

I'm trying to figure out wtf you're argument is. Strawman? I think not. It's the logical assumption from what you've been saying.

Lander is averaging 12 minutes per game so far this season. He's played in every game so far. You're complaining about him not playing enough. - Conclusion: you think he should play more than 12 minutes per game. 

You then use MSU as an example of playing freshmen early and claim that is the reason why they are a better team at the end of the season. You ignore other ways in which they might improve. - Conclusion: The best way to improve young players is to play them early. Practice isn't good enough.

You ignore the point that wins will be even important than other seasons. Miller can't afford to let the team lose just to get Lander PT in the hope that it might speed up his improvement rate. Another possible outcome is that his confidence gets crushed and stalls improvement. With the kind of numbers Lander has been putting up, I'd say that latter is more likely than the former.

Let's pretend you're right but playing Lander more early results in 3 losses that could've been won but only 1 game won that otherwise would've been lost? Is that a good exchange? I'd say no.

Lander isn't ready. IU needs to win games. Miller is playing him so he's getting some experience, just not as much as you'd like.

 

[BobSaccamanno]

Franklin has really been a story. He’s 6’5, athletic and strong, and can defend at a high level. The sky is really the limit. His shot looked really reliable in terms of form and rhythm.  He might not score 18 consistently but that can be a function of circumstance. 

He is obviously developing nicely.  His aunt is a coach and his mom is a great mentor.  I guess maybe we shouldn’t be too surprised.  

In the end, if he keeps this trajectory up, he’s going to have measurables and a skill set that NBA scouts will view as worthy of consideration. 

[Hoosierhoopster]

16 minutes ago, go_iu_bb said:

I'm trying to figure out wtf you're argument is. Strawman? I think not. It's the logical assumption from what you've been saying.

Lander is averaging 12 minutes per game so far this season. He's played in every game so far. You're complaining about him not playing enough. - Conclusion: you think he should play more than 12 minutes per game. 

You then use MSU as an example of playing freshmen early and claim that is the reason why they are a better team at the end of the season. You ignore other ways in which they might improve. - Conclusion: The best way to improve young players is to play them early. Practice isn't good enough.

You ignore the point that wins will be even important than other seasons. Miller can't afford to let the team lose just to get Lander PT in the hope that it might speed up his improvement rate. Another possible outcome is that his confidence gets crushed and stalls improvement. With the kind of numbers Lander has been putting up, I'd say that latter is more likely than the former.

Let's pretend you're right but playing Lander more early results in 3 losses that could've been won but only 1 game won that otherwise would've been lost? Is that a good exchange? I'd say no.

Lander isn't ready. IU needs to win games. Miller is playing him so he's getting some experience, just not as much as you'd like.

 

Dude are you bring obnoxious on purpose? Knock it off. Again for the freaking 10th time Lander played 2 minutes in this game, the game we are talking about, Geronimo played zero, and fwiw Lander’s minutes obviously have been decreasing all season. 

[Hoosierhoopster]

37 minutes ago, IU Scott said:

My teams on the floor and trust Archie to play who he feels that will give him the best chance.  Maybe if our fans get behind the coach and he doesn't have to worry about being on the hot seat maybe he would play young guys.

But he’s not in the hot seat,at all, 

I watched the Adragna film breakdown and now see that CAM pulled Lander right after 2 bad defensive mistakes.

And despite the comments here from people saying he can’t see the floor - which couldn’t be more wrong - that I understand. CAM is hands down a defense first coach, and he pulls young guys when they make defensive mistakes did the same with Hunter last year. 

[Andrew]

Anyone complaining about freshmen not playing much are silly to me. We got the dub didnt we? Most freshman on most d1 teams Dont usually get a lot of PT. their time will come. Lander will play more as the season goes on. Relax and enjoy a dub damn lol. Also geronimo was seen as a project for this year anyways. 

[KoB2011]

2 hours ago, Hoosierhoopster said:

I find it interesting that almost no one is concerned our 5-star point guard isn’t being played, Geronimo isn’t being played, and in a game where Rob racks up 4 fouls and can’t score. Interesting, lol, for once to be the guy not pumping the koolaid and saying everything is great when there are some pretty obvious weaknesses getting glossed over 

To be fair, you didn't watch the game and everyone else seems to realize that's an important game to win come March. 

[KoB2011]

1 hour ago, Hoosierhoopster said:

Lander’s minutes obviously have been decreasing all season. 

This is so obviously false when looking at game logs. Archie seems to play Lander as many minutes as he can when games aren't in question, but in the two games that were in question for most of the game he didn't play him much. 

That seems to be a coach that is looking for ways to get him minutes because he knows he is important, but he isn't willing to sacrifice a game to do it. Isn't that what we should all want?

[Andrew]

31 minutes ago, KoB2011 said:

This is so obviously false when looking at game logs. Archie seems to play Lander as many minutes as he can when games aren't in question, but in the two games that were in question for most of the game he didn't play him much. 

That seems to be a coach that is looking for ways to get him minutes because he knows he is important, but he isn't willing to sacrifice a game to do it. Isn't that what we should all want?

Beautifully said 

[NCHoosier32]

3 hours ago, Hoosierhoopster said:

I find it interesting that almost no one is concerned our 5-star point guard isn’t being played, Geronimo isn’t being played, and in a game where Rob racks up 4 fouls and can’t score. Interesting, lol, for once to be the guy not pumping the koolaid and saying everything is great when there are some pretty obvious weaknesses getting glossed over 

i've said it before, i am absolutely one who thought Lander would start day 1.  when he is in, it is very clear he is not ready.  doesn't mean he won't be very good at some point, but we can't just play him starter minutes because he was a big time recruit if he is going to make us lose games.  so no, i am not concerned.  i am disappointed he isn't further along though.  i think it is the difference in us being a top 25 team.  as for Geronimo, he is really really not ready.  i don't want to see him play just to get him experience if it means losing games.  

[Hoosierhoopster]

1 hour ago, NCHoosier32 said:

i've said it before, i am absolutely one who thought Lander would start day 1.  when he is in, it is very clear he is not ready.  doesn't mean he won't be very good at some point, but we can't just play him starter minutes because he was a big time recruit if he is going to make us lose games.  so no, i am not concerned.  i am disappointed he isn't further along though.  i think it is the difference in us being a top 25 team.  as for Geronimo, he is really really not ready.  i don't want to see him play just to get him experience if it means losing games.  

1. I never advocated starter minutes. Why do people keep making things up to discuss this? 
2. Geronimo is a stud. He is the NH POY. He can play, but like most frosh needs floor time to develop. The difference is 1) Geronimo is a forward, look at his competition fir floor time, 2) CAM is extremely limiting as to frosh, he won’t tolerate any defensive miscues and 3) he will limit frosh minutes in favor of vets. It is not some lack of readiness or ability by Geronimo. 

[KoB2011]

16 minutes ago, Hoosierhoopster said:

1. I never advocated starter minutes. Why do people keep making things up to discuss this? 
2. Geronimo is a stud. He is the NH POY. He can play, but like most frosh needs floor time to develop. The difference is 1) Geronimo is a forward, look at his competition fir floor time, 2) CAM is extremely limiting as to frosh, he won’t tolerate any defensive miscues and 3) he will limit frosh minutes in favor of vets. It is not some lack of readiness or ability by Geronimo. 

Didn't he play a lower ranked freshman 26 very key minutes yesterday? Is it possible Archie is playing guys when he thinks it's best for their and the teams development with his much clearer picture of that than what you are perceiving based mostly off of their high school rankings? Let's be real, what we've seen on a college court from both looks like two guys with a ton of potential who aren't ready to contribute. 

[Hoosierhoopster]

2 hours ago, KoB2011 said:

This is so obviously false when looking at game logs. Archie seems to play Lander as many minutes as he can when games aren't in question, but in the two games that were in question for most of the game he didn't play him much. 

That seems to be a coach that is looking for ways to get him minutes because he knows he is important, but he isn't willing to sacrifice a game to do it. Isn't that what we should all want?

So leaving aside the demonstrably false comment having gone back and looked I agree I was wrong to say his minutes are steadily decreasing — CAM does seem to have generally played him around 17 in most games where the score was not close, but see Providence, 79-58, Lander limited to 9 minutes. Clearly not true that CAM played him as much as he could, right? Right. In the Texas loss, by 22 points, Lander played 16, so if by not in question you mean to include a blowout loss, ok. The Butler game was not in question but he was limited to 2 min. Having gone back and watched how CAM yanked him after his 2 bad defensive mistakes it’s clear he pulled him and never put him back in because of that, he wasn’t just playing him as much as possible in a game not in question - and it really wasn’t in the second half - he was teaching him a lesson. I think that probably happened in the Providence game as well. 

 

[Hoosierhoopster]

14 minutes ago, KoB2011 said:

Didn't he play a lower ranked freshman 26 very key minutes yesterday? Is it possible Archie is playing guys when he thinks it's best for their and the teams development with his much clearer picture of that than what you are perceiving based mostly off of their high school rankings? Let's be real, what we've seen on a college court from both looks like two guys with a ton of potential who aren't ready to contribute. 

Man you really want to argue this. Lander being the number 1 ranked point in his class is not some dismissive little thing. Having gone back and watched Adragna’s breakdown it’s clear Lander was yanked and left out due to his 2 bad defensive mistakes. Lander is clearly ready to contribute, but he’s also making some bad defensive mistakes and CAM won’t tolerate that - we’ve already seen that over time. Galloway is doing well, has lots of promise, but he is not an on ball guard, he is not competing with the team’s point guards, his role is very different, and that goes directly to his floor time 

[go_iu_bb]

He's giving Lander chances to play as he's seen time every game. The time he gets he hasn't looked great. He's shooting like 20% and plays poor defense. I think his minutes have been generous when you take his play into account. It'll eventually click for him and he'll see his PT increase when he earns more minutes.

[dgambill]

5 hours ago, Hoosierhoopster said:

I find it interesting that almost no one is concerned our 5-star point guard isn’t being played, Geronimo isn’t being played, and in a game where Rob racks up 4 fouls and can’t score. Interesting, lol, for once to be the guy not pumping the koolaid and saying everything is great when there are some pretty obvious weaknesses getting glossed over 

It worries me long term...my bigger worries is that we are thin up front and we know how physical the B1G is and how many good bigs there are and I can easily see Race and Trayce getting into foul trouble. That and I worry about our shooting still. Armaan is really only one that has woken up from deep. Al and Rob still spinning their wheels.

[KoB2011]

17 minutes ago, Hoosierhoopster said:

Man you really want to argue this. Lander being the number 1 ranked point in his class is not some dismissive little thing. Having gone back and watched Adragna’s breakdown it’s clear Lander was yanked and left out due to his 2 bad defensive mistakes. Lander is clearly ready to contribute, but he’s also making some bad defensive mistakes and CAM won’t tolerate that - we’ve already seen that over time. Galloway is doing well, has lots of promise, but he is not an on ball guard, he is not competing with the team’s point guards, his role is very different, and that goes directly to his floor time 

Maybe I'm not the argumentative one here... The data is against you and so is seemingly every poster. 

Maybe say, "I misread the situation of a game I didn't watch and see the days doesn't back up my point. My bad." Or even just quit arguing something. But us continuing to not agree with your same wrong points over and over doesn't make us argumentative, it makes the professional arguer argumentative. 

[Hoosierhoopster]

6 minutes ago, dgambill said:

It worries me long term...my bigger worries is that we are thin up front and we know how physical the B1G is and how many good bigs there are and I can easily see Race and Trayce getting into foul trouble. That and I worry about our shooting still. Armaan is really only one that has woken up from deep. Al and Rob still spinning their wheels.

Yes Brunk would definitely help. Race has made major strides, I have a lot of confidence in him, but he hasn’t seemed to have been as assertive as he was early on. Tend to think we’ll see it again soon, and we’ll need it. 
Our shooting - imo - is going to be a question mark if Al and Rob don’t find their form soon (and Rob needs to be more aggressive with his shot imo). I am really impressed with AF along with everyone else, but I would be surprised if he kep shooting at this level, I tend to think he’s shooting above his average. I hope Hunter can find his place better on the team in B1G play, against more typical B1G wings - forwards, he looks to have continued at his 40 percent or so shooting. 

[Hoosierhoopster]

Just now, KoB2011 said:

Maybe I'm not the argumentative one here... The data is against you and so is seemingly every poster. 

Maybe say, "I misread the situation of a game I didn't watch and see the days doesn't back up my point. My bad." Or even just quit arguing something. But us continuing to not agree with your same wrong points over and over doesn't make us argumentative, it makes the professional arguer argumentative. 

Did you even bother to read my post? Maybe you should 

[HoosierFaithful]

19 minutes ago, Hoosierhoopster said:

Man you really want to argue this. Lander being the number 1 ranked point in his class is not some dismissive little thing. Having gone back and watched Adragna’s breakdown it’s clear Lander was yanked and left out due to his 2 bad defensive mistakes. Lander is clearly ready to contribute, but he’s also making some bad defensive mistakes and CAM won’t tolerate that - we’ve already seen that over time. Galloway is doing well, has lots of promise, but he is not an on ball guard, he is not competing with the team’s point guards, his role is very different, and that goes directly to his floor time 

Love ya HH but you’re the one who has been arguing this point for multiple pages, vbg, and you started with a comment of “I didn’t even watch the game” 

 

[Reacher]

Lander was the #1 PG in 2021. Not for 2020. It is clear he has not been playing up to his ranking. Hopefully, that will come in time. I'm glad he is going to have to earn his minutes.

[NCHoosier32]

9 hours ago, Hoosierhoopster said:

1. I never advocated starter minutes. Why do people keep making things up to discuss this? 
2. Geronimo is a stud. He is the NH POY. He can play, but like most frosh needs floor time to develop. The difference is 1) Geronimo is a forward, look at his competition fir floor time, 2) CAM is extremely limiting as to frosh, he won’t tolerate any defensive miscues and 3) he will limit frosh minutes in favor of vets. It is not some lack of readiness or ability by Geronimo. 

i will say this, i don't think it is the case, but if he is limiting their minutes just because they're freshmen, then i think that is a terrible decision and makes no sense.  so i guess we'd agree.  i just don't even kind of think that's why he isn't playing them more.  no one in the modern game keeps freshmen on the bench if they think they'd help win the game.  

[BGleas]

44 minutes ago, NCHoosier32 said:

i will say this, i don't think it is the case, but if he is limiting their minutes just because they're freshmen, then i think that is a terrible decision and makes no sense.  so i guess we'd agree.  i just don't even kind of think that's why he isn't playing them more.  no one in the modern game keeps freshmen on the bench if they think they'd help win the game.  

There's absolutely no evidence that this is the case. 

Al Durham started the first 9 games as a freshman and played 19mpg. The next year both Langford and Phinisee (when healthy) started as freshman. Last year TJD started and played as much as anyone, and while his minutes certainly fell off Armaan Franklin started the first 9 games. 

Also, this year Galloway is arguably our 6th man and playing wing minutes ahead of Hunter who is a RS sophomore. 

Its unfortunate, but guys like Geronimo and Lander aren't ready yet and they had the cupcake portion of the schedule eliminated. Most years there would have been 5 more "North Alabama" type games to get them right. This year we only had 2 of those games.