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Northwestern post game...

bluegrassIU

By bluegrassIU
in General Basketball Discussion

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Hoosierhoopster

Hoosierhoopster

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1 hour ago, BGleas said:

We just see this differently/ I have no problem with Franklin taking 17 shots in a game like that. As someone said earlier in the thread, compared to Phinisee and Durham at least Franklin had the balls to go make some plays. 

The balls thing could be right, or it could be more about the game plan - the sets being run for shots. Honestly it's hard to tell during the flow of the game -- The Adrogna after-game breakdowns are helpful here in particular. Is Rob -- who is one of the best shooters on the team according to CAM -- not being aggressive enough offensively, or is it more who the sets are being run and/or who is CAM encouraging to take the shots? I'd like to see a post-game breakdown on that. I see Rob not being aggressive enough offensively, but I also saw sets being run and swings made for AF to shoot.

NW wasn't going to let TJD dominate the game. TJD taking 12 shots and Franklin taking 17 wasn't by design from Archie. NW was doubling TJD every time he touched it in the paint. Someone else had to step up offensively and Franklin made plays, while Phinisee and Durham largely dribbled around aimlessly east-to-west instead of downhill, which is what they've been doing all season. 

Here we disagree a bit. TJD did dominate the game offensively, and instead of more inside out -- swinging the ball back out and then back in when they doubled down on him, he either turned it over with a few bad inside passes, or it went back out and AF or someone else took shots. TJD could have done more but when the ball didn't come back to him he couldn't. The dude hit 9-12, he dominated when he shot/went to the rim.

Maybe we watched the game differently, but at no point did I feel like Franklin was forcing shots or playing selfishly. He was mostly making plays that nobody else out there seemed to want to make, and at this point I'll take Franklin doing that every day of the week over Phinisee, Durham or anyone else. He's been our 2nd best player to this point in the season. Unlike most, he finishes when he goes to the basket, he has that nice floater, his mid-range has been strong and as of now he's hitting the 3 at a strong rate. He's our only backcourt player at the moment that has all the tools in his bag. 

First my friend, you know I respect the hell out of you and your opinions. But I don't see why you would say maybe we watched the game differently and then Franklin wasn't forcing shots or playing selfishly. What I said: "He’s no ball hog, this is not directed at him, this is CAM running sets for him to shoot." I've repeatedly said AF is excellent, especially defensively, and that he's made a major frosh to soph jump and is a key to our offense -- However, shooting 17 shots to get to 16 points is not going to win games. I've been saying I don't think his outside shooting is at the level of the couple of games made it look, that was a really small sample size, and at the start of the season he shot poorly from the outside. Then in the first B1G game, when he came in scouted by a B1G team, he went 2-6 from deep and again 17 to get to 16, and we lost because of a lack of offense, not defense. His floater and mid-range are excellent -- absolutely agreed, so we're not seeing the game differently, we're apparently seeing AF's outside shooting strengths differently.

And that's OK -- as I've also said, if I am proven wrong and he is now suddenly one of the best outside shooters on the team, then fantastic, because then we'll score better than I think we will. I'm sure he's going to have some more big games, but in my opinion, if we want to have an effective offense, the outside shooting has to be spread around better, and guys like Hunter, Rob and Al -- who CAM has said are the best shooters -- should be getting a bigger role in the outside game. We know Hunter can shoot, we know Al can shoot, on Rob I really just can't tell to what extent it's his mindset/lack of offensive aggression, or the sets CAM is running and pushing. 

On the Galloway thing, I'm a fan. Yes he makes some mistakes, but he's a freshmen so we do overlook some of them, but he also largely makes mistakes trying to make things happen. He's maybe the best passer on the team right now. He's more of a point forward than a point guard and isn't the scorer yet, but I see a poor man's Ty Jerome when I watch Galloway, and he makes more than enough good things happen to not feel too bad about his freshmen mistakes. 

We see the same thing on Galloway, not differently at all. I don't know about him being the best passer, to me that's Lander in the limited looks I've seen, but he's got a great feel for the game and gets to spots / moves without the ball better than anyone else, imo, and that's saying a lot. But yes he does make mistakes -- the conversations I've had here on him, and I've taken a ton of flack because he's a popular guy, have been basically he isn't making mistakes, his defense is great, etc. But he made several key mistakes in that game and frankly they contributed significantly to our losing. He was credited with 4 TO's, but he actually had a couple more. He made mistakes defensively that allowed open looks. I am not attacking him, at all, he's a frosh, and I agree he's going to get some rope, and should, because he helps the team a great deal, but that doesn't mean he should just stay out on the floor, and when we need offense -- and we did in the NWU game -- you need a shooter on the floor. I'm not one to criticize CAM much as to strategy and schematics, but we lost because or a lack of offense and because mistakes led to NWU scoring. We needed shooting on the floor.

The issues with Lander and Hunter isn't that they make defensive mistakes as others do, it's that they are really bad defensively as of right now. The other teams see them come in and purposefully attack them. Both cause our defense to break down, especially when they're in together.  It's not just mistakes here and there. They're almost unplayable defensively at the moment. 

Well here, on Hunter, we do disagree. Unplayable defensively is a big statemAent. On that I do disagree. I have concerns about his lateral movement and his defensive reads on switches, absolutely needs to continue to improve, but we need scoring and playing him will get him there, he came in at the start of the season looking great.

I love the way Hunter has been shooting. I love that like Franklin, Hunter is a confident shooter as IU needs more of that. I agree that this team needs that, especially at the forward spot to help stretch the floor in a game like that where TJD is getting doubled. But he's got to figure out how to be playable defensively. 

Yep agree -- i think we differ only on the amount of improvement needed and how to get there.

With Lander, it's the same thing. I love his potential, but right now he's really bad defensively. Other guards just immediately attack him. It's not just some mistakes here and there as with other guys. 

Honestly I can't tell. He made terrible mistakes in the last game that led to him getting yanked -- we saw that in the Adrogna breakdown. But that was on 3 minutes of play, and then again, against NWU, he got 3 minutes. How much can we actually see in the 3 minutes? Other guys made mistakes, but generally CAM has very little tolerance for defensive mistakes from frosh/young players.

The point I've been trying to make, on the NWU game, is that we did NOT lose due to defense, that was not an issue. We lost for lack of offense / lack of shooting, and, in my opinion, for some bad offensive sets. Lander, in limited minutes, has shown real flashes of excellent point guard play, as in the reason he was recruited. He talked coming in on running P&R with TJD, damn do we need that. We need more offense than we're getting out of our backcourt, I think getting Lander more minutes will spur that along, we're still early in the season. Sitting him is not going to help this team win, imo. 

With our offensive deficiencies, Lander and Hunter just need to become respectable defensively and then they can get more time. I would love to see that happen because the offensive looks so much more fluid with Franklin, Lander, Galloway and Hunter involved. To me, those guys bring the pace, tempo and offense we hope to see under Archie, as opposed to Durham and Phinisee (at least right now), but Hunter and Lander need to figure out the defensive end.  

And again we see things similarly, the offense definitely looks more fluid with that group involved. The only thing we seem to actually differ about is how to get there, or when to get there. I think I'm more risk-tolerant on the D, I want Hunter and Lander involved for their offense. I agree both have issues defensively, we differ as to how much as to Hunter, but I want them getting run rather than sitting when we're losing because we can't score.

 

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Hoosierhoopster

Hoosierhoopster

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42 minutes ago, IUFLA said:

2 games (Stanford and Butler) he had foul trouble...but he's only played over 28 minutes twice (Providence and Florida St). Against Northwestern he wasn't in any kind of foul trouble, yet only got 23 while Al got 35...Al has played over 28 in every game except North Alabama.

Something to watch, I don't really get it either. I also don't get why he isn't shooting more, interested in the next Adrogna breakdown to get a better feel for who sets were run for in the NWU game. I don't like how narrowly structured our outside game is right now. Said it at the start of the season, we will lose games, just as we did against NWU, if we don't spread the floor with outside shooting, and that means not one guy but integrating the guys who are proven long-term shooters.

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BGleas

BGleas

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25 minutes ago, Hoosierhoopster said:

 

My "we saw things differently" comment wasn't meant as a comment on Franklin specifically or as shot or anything, definitely didn't mean it negatively towards you whatsoever HH. I just meant that as a comment that we see this team differently right now in general. We're seeing the game/team a bit differently, and that is perfectly ok. 

On Franklin, I don't really care what Archie and other players said about who the good shooters were in the offseason, 7 games into this season Franklin is our most consistent offensive perimeter player. He's not perfect, but he's bringing it on both ends of floor, where guys like Phinisee, Durham, Hunter and Lander are only bringing it on one end consistently. 

Franklin taking 17 shots, while sure is not ideal for balance, is the least of this teams problems, and I would love nothing more that for Hunter and Lander to have it click, because yes we do need the offense and we were all counting on those two contributing at a high level to make this team better. 

I also would be shocked if the reason Franklin took 17 shots and Phinisee isn't shooting is because Archie is drawing it up that way. Most teams throughout the game run offensive motions or sets, not specific plays. Each set/motion has options off of it and at that point it's up to the players to make plays. Aggressiveness offensively was an issue with Phinisee last year too, and I doubt Archie is drawing it up for Phinisee to not shoot. I think Phinisee just hasn't developed yet to what everyone had hoped. 

On Hunter, yes he has been bad defensively. I'm not sure if you went back and rewatched the Butler game, but when Hunter came is Butler specifically cleared out the man he was defending so he could take Hunter 1-on-1 about 3-4 times a row and it was a key part in the first half where Butler stretched their lead. In the NW game they went right at him when he first came in. He has to clean up that end if he wants to play more. 

I know you made more points, and I know we see several things very similarly, but I'm about to go enjoy some family time so didn't have time to respond to everything. We're not that far off. I just think it's on Hunter and Lander to raise their defensive game to get more time, it's not on Archie to live with their bad defense in an effort to try to get their good offense. 

I'm with you though, I am getting a little frustrated with such a heavy focus on defense. I'm getting frustrated with Phinisee and Durham playing at such a slow pace, and Phinisee not being aggressive. I disagree that Archie has designed it that way, because Franklin, Galloway and Lander (when he does get time) are not playing that way. 

Either way, I completely agree that I would love for Hunter and Lander to get much more involved. I thought Hunter played well offensively in the first half Wednesday, but he has got to figure out how to not be a liability defensively. 

 

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Hoosierhoopster

Hoosierhoopster

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6 minutes ago, BGleas said:

My "we saw things differently" comment wasn't meant as a comment on Franklin specifically or as shot or anything, definitely didn't mean it negatively towards you whatsoever HH. I just meant that as a comment that we see this team differently right now in general. We're seeing the game/team a bit differently, and that is perfectly ok. 

On Franklin, I don't really care what Archie and other players said about who the good shooters were in the offseason, 7 games into this season Franklin is our most consistent offensive perimeter player. He's not perfect, but he's bringing it on both ends of floor, where guys like Phinisee, Durham, Hunter and Lander are only bringing it on one end consistently. 

Franklin taking 17 shots, while sure is not ideal for balance, is the least of this teams problems, and I would love nothing more that for Hunter and Lander to have it click, because yes we do need the offense and we were all counting on those two contributing at a high level to make this team better. 

I also would be shocked if the reason Franklin took 17 shots and Phinisee isn't shooting is because Archie is drawing it up that way. Most teams throughout the game run offensive motions or sets, not specific plays. Each set/motion has options off of it and at that point it's up to the players to make plays. Aggressiveness offensively was an issue with Phinisee last year too, and I doubt Archie is drawing it up for Phinisee to not shoot. I think Phinisee just hasn't developed yet to what everyone had hoped. 

On Hunter, yes he has been bad defensively. I'm not sure if you went back and rewatched the Butler game, but when Hunter came is Butler specifically cleared out the man he was defending so he could take Hunter 1-on-1 about 3-4 times a row and it was a key part in the first half where Butler stretched their lead. In the NW game they went right at him when he first came in. He has to clean up that end if he wants to play more. 

I know you made more points, and I know we see several things very similarly, but I'm about to go enjoy some family time so didn't have time to respond to everything. We're not that far off. I just think it's on Hunter and Lander to raise their defensive game to get more time, it's not on Archie to live with their bad defense in an effort to try to get their good offense. 

I'm with you though, I am getting a little frustrated with such a heavy focus on defense. I'm getting frustrated with Phinisee and Durham playing at such a slow pace, and Phinisee not being aggressive. I disagree that Archie has designed it that way, because Franklin, Galloway and Lander (when he does get time) are not playing that way. 

Either way, I completely agree that I would love for Hunter and Lander to get much more involved. I thought Hunter played well offensively in the first half Wednesday, but he has got to figure out how to not be a liability defensively. 

 

Happy Holidays Gleas, enjoy time with the fam!

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BGleas

BGleas

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7 minutes ago, Hoosierhoopster said:

Happy Holidays Gleas, enjoy time with the fam!

Same to you, HH! You know how it is the day after Xmas with kids. We're trying to get them to clean up their presents, clean up the house in general, and get going so we can get out of the house a bit after being cooped up yesterday all day. Admittedly, I'm sort of skimming posts today and not completely digesting all of the points being made. 

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IUFLA

IUFLA

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4 minutes ago, IowaHoosierFan said:

Just put me on ignore. We're not going to see eye to eye on where the program is. And telling me to get a grip doesn't really do anything but start an argument. So please just ignore me and move on

I don't do "ignore."

Don't you think that's a little bit of an overreaction though? One game, hell not even one season, is a good gauge when comparing programs...

I guess the Wildcats are a better program than MSU and OSU too...

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IowaHoosierFan

IowaHoosierFan

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Just now, IUFLA said:

I don't do "ignore."

Don't you think that's a little bit of an overreaction though? One game, hell not even one season, is a good gauge when comparing programs...

I was responding to the comment that was being sarcastic about our loss to a good NW team. So I was being sarcastic back. 

I do think we're falling behind the rest of the B1G and my opinion on that isn't going to change until I see the overall AND conference standings improve.  

Until then, we're getting better compared to ourselves but not our competition. I don't believe in moral victories or good losses. We used to be almost unbeatable at home, even with a medioi team and I am not just taking about this year without fans. 

But although I was being extra with my comment, it's discouraging to see NW getting better and we see the same issues year after year.

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