Northwestern post game...

[Lurker]

1 hour ago, IUCrazy2 said:

I'm annoyed and lashing out.

You make a fair point.  It is something I normally would not care about, but when things are not going well, please just stop with the "get the right angle to look the most buff" photos and talk about increased verticals and all of that.  That is stuff you advertise when things are going well.  What you advertise when they are not is things like Hulls and Oladipo putting in extra time to put up shots.

I completely understand your frustration. I can recall pics or video of Mo Creek shooting with some sort of machine that kept track of hits/misses. I'd like to hear of new personal bests shooting free throws instead of the verticals. I know the weight room time is important and every team does it but it is beyond maddening to see the shooting woes continue.

[dgambill]

4 hours ago, bluegrassIU said:

Last night...

Rob:   1 for 5.   20%

Al:    0 for 4.   0%

Jerome:  1 for 4.  25%

Armaan:  7 for 17.    41%

So tell me, who is the perimeter guy besides Armaan you would have run anything for last night?

 

 

 So out of those 13 shots for those other guys how many where plays run for them?? How many sets were run for them. How many of those were the open looks that Armaan got? Contrary how many of those shots were late shot clock forced shots, how many were contested shots, and shots that they had to work to get. I’m not saying Armaan shouldn’t of had plays run for him but he was run off a lot of action last night. We’ve seen Rob and Al shoot very good when they have had open looks and not had to create for themselves. In the end our best looks come from going inside to Trayce and Race and having them score at the rim or pass out to open shooters. That is where we should have went...along with getting out into transition and running things before Northwestern defense set.

[H00sier]

10 hours ago, Hoosierhoopster said:

Our starting guards came up short offensively for sure, but that wasn’t all, wasn’t just it. 
 

Said this earlier, AF is good, starter good, and especially defensively, but he should not be taking 17 shots (to score 16 points), or 6 three pointers, both by far more than anyone else, including TJD - who shot 9-12.

Everyone got hyped because AF had a couple very good shooting games, but he has not been and is not one of the best outside shooters. I said it then and caught flack. I like AF a lot, he has made a clear frosh to soph jump - but why is he taking 17 shots? He’s no ball hog, this is not directed at him, this is CAM running sets for him to shoot. Come on already.

It’s not that we don’t have any shooting, it’s largely how our offense is currently being run. It is early, I don’t mean to overreact, but I’ve been saying since the start of the year that when we hit B1G play we will struggle to score unless we are running sets for the actual shooters on the team, not relying on limiting TO’s to create spacing, not over-emphasizing the offense around guys who aren’t strong shooters. I’m not advocating a return to Crean-style overall but for crying out loud we were one of the top offensive teams repeatedly under a Crean, we had sets run for outside shooting by guys who are strong shooters. 
 

There’s also a love of certain players here, Galloway in particular, that causes people to ignore mistakes and issues and see only the positives. Galloway, to me, clearly is a real building block player, he usually gets to where he needs to be on the floor and excels at moving the ball, as an off-ball guard, on target. However, anyone who just didn’t see his 4 - and really it was more - turnovers and several defensive mistakes that led to open looks and baskets had blinders on because they like Galloway. I like him to - this is not about whether he helps the team. But in a game when he repeatedly turns the ball over and our starting guards are NOT scoring or really even getting guys open looks, why is Lander — again — limited to 3 minutes, and Hunter to his usual 16 and only 4 shots? Both players have their weaknesses to improve upon, but again we lose while limiting them, again we as a team ignore a lack of scoring from starting guards and defensive mistakes from others.

The simple Lander isn’t ready yet idea does not work for me. He is immensely talented, he moves the ball at a high level, but he’s being kept off the floor, as is I think very clear now, because his D is not at the level CAM demands. In the abstract that’s fine, but in context we had defensive mistakes by the guys playing, AF was taking by far the most shots, and our starting guards dominated the minutes while not scoring OR assisting at a high level.
It’s time to start integrating Lander and Hunter more — and time to get Galloway more scoring looks. It was nice to see him nail those 2 threes. His shot needs work but his movement to the right wing was excellent, and he nailed those shots under pressure. He’s not going to be a strong outside shooter, but he could be a stronger contributor to the scoring with more inside looks and a couple 3’s added to keep the D honest.

Ending on another positive note, said it earlier but really liked Race’s second-half scoring aggressiveness. He looked really good inside.

Seems like you take great exception to Galloway getting a lot of praise, while ignoring our senior and junior lead guards are sucking hind tit. I’m a big fan of both guards, wish they had half the drive and iq of Galloway-he’s young and had a couple lapses, but his upside so far is undeniable.

[Hoosierhoopster]

9 minutes ago, H00sier said:

Seems like you take great exception to Galloway getting a lot of praise, while ignoring our senior and junior lead guards are sucking hind tit. I’m a big fan of both guards, wish they had half the drive and iq of Galloway-he’s young and had a couple lapses, but his upside so far is undeniable.

Seems like you don’t read my posts. I’ve repeatedly said I think Galloway is good and a building block player. Try reading before posting.

[H00sier]

5 hours ago, Hoosierhoopster said:

Seems like you don’t read my posts. I’ve repeatedly said I think Galloway is good and a building block player. Try reading before posting.

Merry Christmas 

[madmax]

Merry Christmas. And thank goodness we get to play tomorrow and beat down the Illini so we can get back on the Final 4 hype train!!!

[Mike]

Merry Christmas to you and your family! Enjoy today misery starts tomorrow.

[OGIUAndy]

Go Hoosiers!! Kill the Illini! 

[Hoosierhoopster]

9 minutes ago, OGIUAndy said:

Go Hoosiers!! Kill the Illini! 

That's the Christmas Spirit!

[DunkinDipo]

My question to any of the insiders: Is Rob battling injuries that Archie hasn't disclosed? He just doesn't look right. Or is this just a confidence issue or mental? Whatever it is, hopefully he can get things figured out because we really need him to be his best to be successful this year IMO.

[IU Scott]

7 minutes ago, DunkinDipo said:

My question to any of the insiders: Is Rob battling injuries that Archie hasn't disclosed? He just doesn't look right. Or is this just a confidence issue or mental? Whatever it is, hopefully he can get things figured out because we really need him to be his best to be successful this year IMO.

I have no info but it just seems he is not very aggressive and is to laid back to be a good pg

[NCHoosier32]

2 hours ago, DunkinDipo said:

My question to any of the insiders: Is Rob battling injuries that Archie hasn't disclosed? He just doesn't look right. Or is this just a confidence issue or mental? Whatever it is, hopefully he can get things figured out because we really need him to be his best to be successful this year IMO.

no inside info here, but remember he was the 22nd ranked guard in his class coming in.  i guess he's a little disappointing, but i'm not sure we should have expected too big of things from him.  

[Hoosierhoopster]

3 hours ago, DunkinDipo said:

My question to any of the insiders: Is Rob battling injuries that Archie hasn't disclosed? He just doesn't look right. Or is this just a confidence issue or mental? Whatever it is, hopefully he can get things figured out because we really need him to be his best to be successful this year IMO.

He’s healthy, nothing public about any injury and CAM has said recently that he’s healthy.

I’ll say defensively he’s been good, but he’s not playing very aggressively, imo, offensively. Sometimes it’s hard to tell if that’s just a reflection of the sets and role he’s playing, or that he’s not being aggressive enough - not looking to score enough 

[IowaHoosierFan]

2 hours ago, Hoosierhoopster said:

He’s healthy, nothing public about any injury and CAM has said recently that he’s healthy.

I’ll say defensively he’s been good, but he’s not playing very aggressively, imo, offensively. Sometimes it’s hard to tell if that’s just a reflection of the sets and role he’s playing, or that he’s not being aggressive enough - not looking to score enough 

3 years says the kid isn't the kid who will take a team on his shoulder and say who cares who else is on the floor.  I am going to shoot, score and win this game.  He defers to everyone else until late in each half.  He plays not to mess up instead of playing to win at all costs.  Sometimes, having that type of attitude will get you sent to the bench, but in the long run, you will be the leader/hero of the team.  We don't have anyone like that.  TJD wants to be, but he has to rely on the others to get him the ball, and to be honest, he needs to play stronger and force his position to get better feeds to him.  Given space TJD is as deadly as any big in the country.

[NCHoosier32]

11 hours ago, IowaHoosierFan said:

3 years says the kid isn't the kid who will take a team on his shoulder and say who cares who else is on the floor.  I am going to shoot, score and win this game.  He defers to everyone else until late in each half.  He plays not to mess up instead of playing to win at all costs.  Sometimes, having that type of attitude will get you sent to the bench, but in the long run, you will be the leader/hero of the team.  We don't have anyone like that.  TJD wants to be, but he has to rely on the others to get him the ball, and to be honest, he needs to play stronger and force his position to get better feeds to him.  Given space TJD is as deadly as any big in the country.

we absolutely cannot expect Rob to take over.  it's not who he is.  wasn't that guy coming in to college either.  he made us all fans by overachieving expectations as a freshman, but then the injuries set him back.  unfortunately he isn't even back to where he has as a freshman, and that's what is so disappointing.  at this point we have to realize he was the #22 ranked PG in his class and he's probably close to his ceiling.  one day Lander will be way above where RP is, but when?  i think next year personally.  i hope it's not 2 years from now and he is already in the NBA drafted on potential!  anyway, it's still very hard to say Lander would make us win games if he was playing the minutes RP is.  of course we can only know if he does, but apparently Arch isn't prepared to take that chance right now.  so hopefully he at least starts playing him more minutes slowly, but surely.  as far as Lander getting upset and transferring, i have to think the discussion when he reclassed was something like - why not graduate early, start learning our system, hit the weights with us, yes, your playing time may be limited at least at first, but look at it like a redshirt year plus some game experience.  you'll still be in the NBA after the 2022-2023 season either way and this way, you'll already have your degree after those 3 years.  

[The Daily Hoosier]

Some background on Illinois and Archie Miller's thoughts on the game.

https://www.thedailyhoosier.com/iu-basketball-game-day-hoosiers-looking-for-a-bounce-back-win-at-illinois/

[BGleas]

On 12/24/2020 at 11:42 AM, Hoosierhoopster said:

Our starting guards came up short offensively for sure, but that wasn’t all, wasn’t just it. 
 

Said this earlier, AF is good, starter good, and especially defensively, but he should not be taking 17 shots (to score 16 points), or 6 three pointers, both by far more than anyone else, including TJD - who shot 9-12.

Everyone got hyped because AF had a couple very good shooting games, but he has not been and is not one of the best outside shooters. I said it then and caught flack. I like AF a lot, he has made a clear frosh to soph jump - but why is he taking 17 shots? He’s no ball hog, this is not directed at him, this is CAM running sets for him to shoot. Come on already.

It’s not that we don’t have any shooting, it’s largely how our offense is currently being run. It is early, I don’t mean to overreact, but I’ve been saying since the start of the year that when we hit B1G play we will struggle to score unless we are running sets for the actual shooters on the team, not relying on limiting TO’s to create spacing, not over-emphasizing the offense around guys who aren’t strong shooters. I’m not advocating a return to Crean-style overall but for crying out loud we were one of the top offensive teams repeatedly under a Crean, we had sets run for outside shooting by guys who are strong shooters. 
 

There’s also a love of certain players here, Galloway in particular, that causes people to ignore mistakes and issues and see only the positives. Galloway, to me, clearly is a real building block player, he usually gets to where he needs to be on the floor and excels at moving the ball, as an off-ball guard, on target. However, anyone who just didn’t see his 4 - and really it was more - turnovers and several defensive mistakes that led to open looks and baskets had blinders on because they like Galloway. I like him to - this is not about whether he helps the team. But in a game when he repeatedly turns the ball over and our starting guards are NOT scoring or really even getting guys open looks, why is Lander — again — limited to 3 minutes, and Hunter to his usual 16 and only 4 shots? Both players have their weaknesses to improve upon, but again we lose while limiting them, again we as a team ignore a lack of scoring from starting guards and defensive mistakes from others.

The simple Lander isn’t ready yet idea does not work for me. He is immensely talented, he moves the ball at a high level, but he’s being kept off the floor, as is I think very clear now, because his D is not at the level CAM demands. In the abstract that’s fine, but in context we had defensive mistakes by the guys playing, AF was taking by far the most shots, and our starting guards dominated the minutes while not scoring OR assisting at a high level.
It’s time to start integrating Lander and Hunter more — and time to get Galloway more scoring looks. It was nice to see him nail those 2 threes. His shot needs work but his movement to the right wing was excellent, and he nailed those shots under pressure. He’s not going to be a strong outside shooter, but he could be a stronger contributor to the scoring with more inside looks and a couple 3’s added to keep the D honest.

Ending on another positive note, said it earlier but really liked Race’s second-half scoring aggressiveness. He looked really good inside.

We just see this differently/ I have no problem with Franklin taking 17 shots in a game like that. As someone said earlier in the thread, compared to Phinisee and Durham at least Franklin had the balls to go make some plays. 

NW wasn't going to let TJD dominate the game. TJD taking 12 shots and Franklin taking 17 wasn't by design from Archie. NW was doubling TJD every time he touched it in the paint. Someone else had to step up offensively and Franklin made plays, while Phinisee and Durham largely dribbled around aimlessly east-to-west instead of downhill, which is what they've been doing all season. 

Maybe we watched the game differently, but at no point did I feel like Franklin was forcing shots or playing selfishly. He was mostly making plays that nobody else out there seemed to want to make, and at this point I'll take Franklin doing that every day of the week over Phinisee, Durham or anyone else. He's been our 2nd best player to this point in the season. Unlike most, he finishes when he goes to the basket, he has that nice floater, his mid-range has been strong and as of now he's hitting the 3 at a strong rate. He's our only backcourt player at the moment that has all the tools in his bag. 

On the Galloway thing, I'm a fan. Yes he makes some mistakes, but he's a freshmen so we do overlook some of them, but he also largely makes mistakes trying to make things happen. He's maybe the best passer on the team right now. He's more of a point forward than a point guard and isn't the scorer yet, but I see a poor man's Ty Jerome when I watch Galloway, and he makes more than enough good things happen to not feel too bad about his freshmen mistakes. 

The issues with Lander and Hunter isn't that they make defensive mistakes as others do, it's that they are really bad defensively as of right now. The other teams see them come in and purposefully attack them. Both cause our defense to break down, especially when they're in together.  It's not just mistakes here and there. They're almost unplayable defensively at the moment. 

I love the way Hunter has been shooting. I love that like Franklin, Hunter is a confident shooter as IU needs more of that. I agree that this team needs that, especially at the forward spot to help stretch the floor in a game like that where TJD is getting doubled. But he's got to figure out how to be playable defensively. 

With Lander, it's the same thing. I love his potential, but right now he's really bad defensively. Other guards just immediately attack him. It's not just some mistakes here and there as with other guys. 

With our offensive deficiencies, Lander and Hunter just need to become respectable defensively and then they can get more time. I would love to see that happen because the offensive looks so much more fluid with Franklin, Lander, Galloway and Hunter involved. To me, those guys bring the pace, tempo and offense we hope to see under Archie, as opposed to Durham and Phinisee (at least right now), but Hunter and Lander need to figure out the defensive end.  

[IUFLA]

55 minutes ago, BGleas said:

We just see this differently/ I have no problem with Franklin taking 17 shots in a game like that. As someone said earlier in the thread, compared to Phinisee and Durham at least Franklin had the balls to go make some plays. 

NW wasn't going to let TJD dominate the game. TJD taking 12 shots and Franklin taking 17 wasn't by design from Archie. NW was doubling TJD every time he touched it in the paint. Someone else had to step up offensively and Franklin made plays, while Phinisee and Durham largely dribbled around aimlessly east-to-west instead of downhill, which is what they've been doing all season. 

Maybe we watched the game differently, but at no point did I feel like Franklin was forcing shots or playing selfishly. He was mostly making plays that nobody else out there seemed to want to make, and at this point I'll take Franklin doing that every day of the week over Phinisee, Durham or anyone else. He's been our 2nd best player to this point in the season. Unlike most, he finishes when he goes to the basket, he has that nice floater, his mid-range has been strong and as of now he's hitting the 3 at a strong rate. He's our only backcourt player at the moment that has all the tools in his bag. 

On the Galloway thing, I'm a fan. Yes he makes some mistakes, but he's a freshmen so we do overlook some of them, but he also largely makes mistakes trying to make things happen. He's maybe the best passer on the team right now. He's more of a point forward than a point guard and isn't the scorer yet, but I see a poor man's Ty Jerome when I watch Galloway, and he makes more than enough good things happen to not feel too bad about his freshmen mistakes. 

The issues with Lander and Hunter isn't that they make defensive mistakes as others do, it's that they are really bad defensively as of right now. The other teams see them come in and purposefully attack them. Both cause our defense to break down, especially when they're in together.  It's not just mistakes here and there. They're almost unplayable defensively at the moment. 

I love the way Hunter has been shooting. I love that like Franklin, Hunter is a confident shooter as IU needs more of that. I agree that this team needs that, especially at the forward spot to help stretch the floor in a game like that where TJD is getting doubled. But he's got to figure out how to be playable defensively. 

With Lander, it's the same thing. I love his potential, but right now he's really bad defensively. Other guards just immediately attack him. It's not just some mistakes here and there as with other guys. 

With our offensive deficiencies, Lander and Hunter just need to become respectable defensively and then they can get more time. I would love to see that happen because the offensive looks so much more fluid with Franklin, Lander, Galloway and Hunter involved. To me, those guys bring the pace, tempo and offense we hope to see under Archie, as opposed to Durham and Phinisee (at least right now), but Hunter and Lander need to figure out the defensive end.  

X 1000...

Archie is seeing something we're not in the Rob vs Al debate...he has sat Rob for long periods (and I know in 1 game it was foul trouble) but has never cut into Al's playing time. Even with his flaws I think Rob is the superior player...Al may shoot a bit better, but Rob better at going to the basket, and on the defensive end it's not even a debate.

It does amaze me that once either one of them heads for the hoop, passing doesn't seem to be an option...☹️

 

[BGleas]

4 minutes ago, IUFLA said:

X 1000...

Archie is seeing something we're not in the Rob vs Al debate...he has sat Rob for long periods (and I know in 1 game it was foul trouble) but has never cut into Al's playing time. Even with his flaws I think Rob is the superior player...Al may shoot a bit better, but Rob better at going to the basket, and on the defensive end it's not even a debate.

It does amaze me that once either one of them heads for the hoop, passing doesn't seem to be an option...☹️

 

I think the problem is Archie can't trust Lander defensively right now. I don't like what Phinisee and Durham are producing offensively, but at least you can trust them defensively and we know Archie is a defense first coach. 

Lander's defensive liabilities are currently far greater than Phinisee and Durham's offensive deficiencies. 

[IUFLA]

2 minutes ago, BGleas said:

I think the problem is Archie can't trust Lander defensively right now. I don't like what Phinisee and Durham are producing offensively, but at least you can trust them defensively and we know Archie is a defense first coach. 

Lander's defensive liabilities are currently far greater than Phinisee and Durham's offensive deficiencies. 

Agree...but it seems when he puts Galloway in the game, it's always Rob's time that suffers, and I can't figure out why...

[Reacher]

1 hour ago, BGleas said:

We just see this differently/ I have no problem with Franklin taking 17 shots in a game like that. As someone said earlier in the thread, compared to Phinisee and Durham at least Franklin had the balls to go make some plays. 

NW wasn't going to let TJD dominate the game. TJD taking 12 shots and Franklin taking 17 wasn't by design from Archie. NW was doubling TJD every time he touched it in the paint. Someone else had to step up offensively and Franklin made plays, while Phinisee and Durham largely dribbled around aimlessly east-to-west instead of downhill, which is what they've been doing all season. 

Maybe we watched the game differently, but at no point did I feel like Franklin was forcing shots or playing selfishly. He was mostly making plays that nobody else out there seemed to want to make, and at this point I'll take Franklin doing that every day of the week over Phinisee, Durham or anyone else. He's been our 2nd best player to this point in the season. Unlike most, he finishes when he goes to the basket, he has that nice floater, his mid-range has been strong and as of now he's hitting the 3 at a strong rate. He's our only backcourt player at the moment that has all the tools in his bag. 

On the Galloway thing, I'm a fan. Yes he makes some mistakes, but he's a freshmen so we do overlook some of them, but he also largely makes mistakes trying to make things happen. He's maybe the best passer on the team right now. He's more of a point forward than a point guard and isn't the scorer yet, but I see a poor man's Ty Jerome when I watch Galloway, and he makes more than enough good things happen to not feel too bad about his freshmen mistakes. 

The issues with Lander and Hunter isn't that they make defensive mistakes as others do, it's that they are really bad defensively as of right now. The other teams see them come in and purposefully attack them. Both cause our defense to break down, especially when they're in together.  It's not just mistakes here and there. They're almost unplayable defensively at the moment. 

I love the way Hunter has been shooting. I love that like Franklin, Hunter is a confident shooter as IU needs more of that. I agree that this team needs that, especially at the forward spot to help stretch the floor in a game like that where TJD is getting doubled. But he's got to figure out how to be playable defensively. 

With Lander, it's the same thing. I love his potential, but right now he's really bad defensively. Other guards just immediately attack him. It's not just some mistakes here and there as with other guys. 

With our offensive deficiencies, Lander and Hunter just need to become respectable defensively and then they can get more time. I would love to see that happen because the offensive looks so much more fluid with Franklin, Lander, Galloway and Hunter involved. To me, those guys bring the pace, tempo and offense we hope to see under Archie, as opposed to Durham and Phinisee (at least right now), but Hunter and Lander need to figure out the defensive end.  

Well said. I've brought up Galloways role as PF and I think he will continue to evolve in that role. 

[IUFLA]

Just looked...Al averages 31 mpg, Rob 24 mpg...that's what confounds me...

[Reacher]

1 minute ago, IUFLA said:

Agree...but it seems when he puts Galloway in the game, it's always Rob's time that suffers, and I can't figure out why...

I think we need Rob in with Galloway. Rob to be the ball handler, get into the half court sets and let TG create. Otherwise, Al is left on ball and the O suffers

[BGleas]

8 minutes ago, IUFLA said:

Just looked...Al averages 31 mpg, Rob 24 mpg...that's what confounds me...

That could be early season anomalies with Phinisee have 2-3 games where he had early foul trouble. 

Just going off memory, didn't look it up, but it feels like foul trouble has plagued him a few times already. 

[IUFLA]

3 minutes ago, BGleas said:

That could be early season anomalies with Phinisee have 2-3 games where he had early foul trouble. 

Just going off memory, didn't look it up, but it feels like foul trouble has plagued him a few times already. 

2 games (Stanford and Butler) he had foul trouble...but he's only played over 28 minutes twice (Providence and Florida St). Against Northwestern he wasn't in any kind of foul trouble, yet only got 23 while Al got 35...Al has played over 28 in every game except North Alabama.