Rutgers Post Game Thread

[BGleas]

I think sometimes we way overcomplicate this, or sometimes act like the coach is playing a video game and can use a controller to dictate what players do. 

If Mike Woodson can't trust a 5th year senior who is one of his best and most reliable players to actually put a hand up on a last second game winning 3, then what are we even doing?

Pikell didn't draw up some masterful play. He didn't do some amazing coaching. IU got two amazing, wide open looks from its best 3pt shooter when down 3 and we made one to tie the game. 

Then we had one of our most experienced, most trustworthy players on their guy and the kid stepped up and made a clutch shot. He hit a big time shot. It's that simple. 

[Seeking6]

Running out of steam with this crew. So close but we aren't. Until Coach finds guys who can and will do whatever necessary ( i.e. make shots at closing time) we'll be right in this same camp year after like we have been since 2016.

I like our kids. For the most part they seem like good guys,etc....but we aren't here for participation trophies. If 2 guys are brought in as 3 point specialists and go 3-16....you aren't playing anymore. Or if you are it's in a reduced bench role.

TJD looked so dominant early on and it seems we took about an hour break from getting him the ball.

I'm find with whatever roster turnover is necessary this month. Tired of trying to be an adult in defending this program year after year.

[Seeking6]

1 minute ago, BGleas said:

I think sometimes we way overcomplicate this, or sometimes act like the coach is playing a video game and can use a controller to dictate what players do. 

If Mike Woodson can't trust a 5th year senior who is one of his best and most reliable players to actually put a hand up on a last second game winning 3, then what are we even doing?

Pikell didn't draw up some masterful play. He didn't do some amazing coaching. IU got two amazing, wide open looks from its best 3pt shooter when down 3 and we made one to tie the game. 

Then we had one of our most experienced, most trustworthy players on their guy and the kid stepped up and made a clutch shot. He hit a big time shot. It's that simple. 

Agree. My bigger issue is the first 38 minutes not the final 2. We shouldn't be in that position headed to the final 2 minutes at home on senior night,etc....vs Rutgers. 

[IUFLA]

18 minutes ago, BGleas said:

Baker and Harper are closers. 

Yes, but how did they get there? Both were lightly recruited out of high school...

It's a development/culture thing in my eyes...and I think if Mike Woodson gets the time, he'll fix ours...

[btownqb]

1 minute ago, Seeking6 said:

Agree. My bigger issue is the first 38 minutes not the final 2. We shouldn't be in that position headed to the final 2 minutes at home on senior night,etc....vs Rutgers. 

CONCUR

[btownqb]

3 minutes ago, IUFLA said:

Yes, but how did they get there? Both were lightly recruited out of high school...

It's a development/culture thing in my eyes...and I think if Mike Woodson gets the time, he'll fix ours...

I agree 

[KoB2011]

At the end of each half Rutgers inbounded the ball without a timeout, and had one of their two killers get to where they wanted on the court and hit a tough shot.

Both times it was beautiful to watch if you weren’t an IU fan. Neither shot even touched their rim; just get to their spot, hit the shot, didn’t care who had a hand up or what the defense was doing.

We don’t have one guy who can do that, let alone two. 

[5fouls]

27 minutes ago, btownqb said:

Or we just need to hit more wide open 3s

Let's assume you and I are coaching against each other in a must win game.  Your team's best offensive threats are two guys that can operate down low in space and a lightning quick point guard that has been playing at a high level lately.

I correctly deduce that the best chance I have to win is to go to a zone.  Take away the inside game and limit penetration by the PG.  I'm willing to give up open 3's until you start making some.  Fortunately for me, you never do. At this point, I am dictating how the game is being played.  That's my advantage and it's what I want. I've already won half the battle by making you adapt to my gameplan.

My plan works better and better as the game goes on.  And then, you throw me another little life saver.  You have 2 of your 3 main guys on the bench for a critical 4 minute stretch of the second half.  Maybe they needed a rest.  Firtunately, my main guys didnt.

Oh wait, the percentages finally work in your favor and you hit one of those 3's to tie the game.  But, you have no timeouts, so you cant set up the defensive assignments you want.  I choose not to call my last timeout to let you do that.

That's okay, my main guy, who has already played 38 minutes, and didnt require a 'rest' in the 2nd half, has just enough energy to get his final 3 pointer into the bottom of the net.

I win.  You don't.  But you can take solace in knowing those 3's were wide open.  Meanwhile, I'll have to settle for winning the game.

 

[btownqb]

8 minutes ago, tdhoosier said:

There’s never one reason for a loss; there are many. And I will continue to disagree with you on this subject. The bad substitutions continue to be a factor in our losses. 

Example: In the first half when we were rolling, in comes the line up of Rob, Geronimo, Durr, Bates and P Stew. In that stretch we were -2. Sure, you may say they held the lead while the starters got some rest. But we lost momentum. We lost an opportunity to expanded our lead in what turned out to be a one possession game. 

A line up is not good when the only thing you’re asking of them is to try and hold the lead. In our case: one of TJD or Race have to be on the floor. And when Gallo is healthy, Stew and Kopp should not be on the floor at the same time. 

Yes, starters need rest and I’m all for getting them rest, but we can rotate through the substitutions just like EVERY other team in college basketball. Woody also needs to be quicker to act when the combination of players on the floor isn’t working. Geronimo is a guy who seems comfortable cutting to the middle of a zone, but wasn’t put in until we lost all momentum. Yes, we don’t have killers. We freeze up at the end of the game. Our opponents make adjustments. Our opponents want to win too. Blah, blah, blah, excuse, excuse, excuse. These realities are even more reason why we need to take advantage of every second in the first 30 minutes. Killing bursts of momentum come back to bite us. It has in just about every one of our losses. 

Or they could have just came in and played better. That is the problem! Not the subbing! 

[Artesian_86]

23 minutes ago, ledies22 said:

Is there a thread where level headed people can discuss?

This one,...... only if a hand full don't post....😐

[btownqb]

1 minute ago, 5fouls said:

Let's assume you and I are coaching against each other in a must win game.  Your team's best offensive threats are two guys that can operate down low in space and a lightning quick point guard that has been playing at a high level lately.

I correctly deduce that the best chance I have to win is to go to a zone.  Take away the inside game and limit penetration by the PG.  I'm willing to give up open 3's until you start making some.  Fortunately for me, you never do. At this point, I am dictating how the game is being played.  That's my advantage and it's what I want. I've already won half the battle by making you adapt to my gameplan.

My plan works better and better as the game goes on.  And then, you throw me another little life saver.  You have 2 of your 3 main guys on the bench for a critical 4 minute stretch of the second half.  Maybe they needed a rest.  Firtunately, my main guys didnt.

Oh wait, the percentages finally work in your favor and you hit one of those 3's to tie the game.  But, you have no timeouts, so you cant set up the defensive assignments you want.  I choose not to call my last timeout to let you do that.

That's okay, my main guy, who has already played 38 minutes, and didnt require a 'rest' in the 2nd half, has just enough energy to get his final 3 pointer into the bottom of the net.

I win.  You don't.  But you can take solace in knowing those 3's were wide open.  Meanwhile, I'll have to settle for winning the game.

 

So you want better players too!!! I agree! 

We wouldn't have put RP on Harper regardless. He doesn't guard 6'5/6'5 wing/forwards. 

[5fouls]

13 minutes ago, KoB2011 said:

The shot went through the hoop with over 2 seconds left; there was way too much time to just get into him, he'd have gone right past him for either a layup or a dumpoff for an easy dunk. 

I'd have liked a little tighter coverage, but out of the options on that play a Harper pull-up was what I was most okay with. 

I'll take my chances that TJD could have had something for him should he have chosen to drive the lane.

[Artesian_86]

22 minutes ago, IUFLA said:

And I think that's a culture thing that's not going to be solved in a year.

I think Mike Woodson is right when he says some of the players are still conditioned to the old culture. The mechanical play of an Archie Miller team as opposed to the freer flowing Mike Woodson philosophy of "if you're open, shoot the damn ball." 

He's trying to inject confidence in these kids and sometimes it shows...but when we run up against kids that have grown up in a positive culture like that, we defer...

We're just not up to Wisconsin's or even a Rutgers level in the culture department yet...it takes time

 

Very well said. Short, sweet and to the point.

[tdhoosier]

1 minute ago, btownqb said:

Or they could have just came in and played better. That is the problem! Not the subbing! 

That’s the point. They aren’t put in the position to play better. For example, TJD or Race aren’t on the floor to draw doubles or produce an inside threat and give them space on the perimeter. These guys are limited. In order for them to produce they need to be paired with better players. He makes it too easy on our opponents by taking the foot off the gas. 

Other teams don’t do this. And they don’t do it for a reason. 

[5fouls]

16 minutes ago, btownqb said:

No he doesn't. This is a crazy complaint, man. 

So, which is it. Are you saying Rob cant hit big shots or tgat Race did an outstanding job guarding Harper on the last play? 

[KoB2011]

2 minutes ago, 5fouls said:

I'll take my chances that TJD could have had something for him should he have chosen to drive the lane.

That chance didn't work out for us several times last night. They got an endless stream of dunks and layups when they got into the lane last night because our backside rotations weren't there once TJD helped off. 

[Seeking6]

8 minutes ago, KoB2011 said:

At the end of each half Rutgers inbounded the ball without a timeout, and had one of their two killers get to where they wanted on the court and hit a tough shot.

Both times it was beautiful to watch if you weren’t an IU fan. Neither shot even touched their rim; just get to their spot, hit the shot, didn’t care who had a hand up or what the defense was doing.

We don’t have one guy who can do that, let alone two. 

I was really hoping that end of half 3 didn't impact things but it certainly did. We were up 10, crowd going and poof..you could feel the deflation when he hit it to cut to 7. 

[btownqb]

7 minutes ago, 5fouls said:

So, which is it. Are you saying Rob cant hit big shots or tgat Race did an outstanding job guarding Harper on the last play? 

Rob should not have been in on the last play. And RT should have done a better job. 

[btownqb]

9 minutes ago, tdhoosier said:

That’s the point. They aren’t put in the position to play better. For example, TJD or Race aren’t on the floor to draw doubles or produce an inside threat and give them space on the perimeter. These guys are limited. In order for them to produce they need to be paired with better players. He makes it too easy on our opponents by taking the foot off the gas. 

Other teams don’t do this. And they don’t do it for a reason. 

Other teams don't sub!!?!?! 

You are putting soooo much importance on something that's not important. 

[KoB2011]

9 minutes ago, 5fouls said:

So, which is it. Are you saying Rob cant hit big shots or tgat Race did an outstanding job guarding Harper on the last play? 

Rob got taken to the bucket repeatedly Mulcahy, why in the world would we think he could guard Harper? 

[Lostin76]

Can’t beat Rutgers at home on Senior Night for a tourney bid. Terrible. 

 

[tdhoosier]

5 minutes ago, btownqb said:

Other teams don't sub!!?!?! 

You are putting soooo much importance on something that's not important. 

Where did I say that? I said other teams don’t run a lineup with no starters on the floor if they don’t have the depth to justify doing so. 

I don’t recall a second of game play this season when our opponents did not have one of their 3 best players on the floor unless they were in foul trouble or were awarding garbage minutes to their bench. 

Edited March 3, 2022 by tdhoosier

[KoB2011]

Honestly you know what would make me blame Woodson for this loss....

Going out of his way to put a guy that is 5" shorter and 60 lbs smaller on Harper on the last possession. 

[btownqb]

3 minutes ago, tdhoosier said:

Where did I say that? I said other teams don’t run a lineup with no starters on the floor if they don’t have the depth to justify doing so. 

I don’t recall a second of game play this season when our opponents did not have one of their 3 best players on the floor unless they were in foul trouble or were awarding garbage minutes to their bench. 

Ok! I don't know what to tell you. I think you alls complaints about subbing are ridiculous. I have the whole season, I did with Archie, I did with Crean, as well. Truthfully, I can't think of a way the rotations could have been any better last night. We got our guys rest and didn't lose anything.  

RP, PS, and MK didn't hit shots. We need to upgrade those positions. (although I suspect Rob just getting back in game shape has to do with some of his struggles).  Plus there wasn't anyone in RU starting lineup that Rob could guard. He gave up two Orebs just simply because he is short. Frustrating. 

[5fouls]

29 minutes ago, 5fouls said:

Let's assume you and I are coaching against each other in a must win game.  Your team's best offensive threats are two guys that can operate down low in space and a lightning quick point guard that has been playing at a high level lately.

I correctly deduce that the best chance I have to win is to go to a zone.  Take away the inside game and limit penetration by the PG.  I'm willing to give up open 3's until you start making some.  Fortunately for me, you never do. At this point, I am dictating how the game is being played.  That's my advantage and it's what I want. I've already won half the battle by making you adapt to my gameplan.

My plan works better and better as the game goes on.  And then, you throw me another little life saver.  You have 2 of your 3 main guys on the bench for a critical 4 minute stretch of the second half.  Maybe they needed a rest.  Firtunately, my main guys didnt.

Oh wait, the percentages finally work in your favor and you hit one of those 3's to tie the game.  But, you have no timeouts, so you cant set up the defensive assignments you want.  I choose not to call my last timeout to let you do that.

That's okay, my main guy, who has already played 38 minutes, and didnt require a 'rest' in the 2nd half, has just enough energy to get his final 3 pointer into the bottom of the net.

I win.  You don't.  But you can take solace in knowing those 3's were wide open.  Meanwhile, I'll have to settle for winning the game.

 

 

8 minutes ago, KoB2011 said:

Honestly you know what would make me blame Woodson for this loss....

Going out of his way to put a guy that is 5" shorter and 60 lbs smaller on Harper on the last possession. 

Or.....