Rutgers Post Game Thread

[AxnJxn]

/vent

I'm sure I'm not alone on this, but losing last night really, really sucks. I love the NCAAT for many reasons - it's IMO the best sporting event of the year, it's a sign that winter is over, and it's just ... brilliant. But, it loses value when we're not in it. I'm resigned to rooting against teams, or for the little guys, or whatever. Not being in it for what seems like decades is just terrible, and it's getting kind of exhausting. 

I was really excited for last night's game, because I thought it was a great chance for the program to turn the corner, to start a new book with a fresh page, to finally get over that hump of not making the tournament. I was excited from the moment I got up and throughout the day. So, yeah, today I'm still kind of bummed, and it's looking very likely that I'll be watching another tournament without IU, which blows.

I'm 54 years old. Fortunate enough to be on campus in 87, through RMK's salad years and whatnot, so I've seen the highest of highs. I'm not really even expecting those levels any more (which is also sad in a completely different way), but is it really that difficult to just get into the tournament? Hell, I was even ok with being an 11 seed, which is kind of ridiculous for a program like IU's. 

Anyway.

/end vent

[Southern IN Hoosier]

I had a post typed up last night but decided to sleep on it. Last night was exactly how our season has gone. Woody came in and bandaided a roster together and it has shown. He brought in need (shooters) and those shooters had bad nights. I have never been a fan of his substitution patterns, I haven't been a fan of some of in game decisions, but I do believe that he needs at least 4 years to get his guys in here. 

I hope I am not sticking my foot in my mouth like I did with Archie. 

[Cbp4IU]

All I know is if IU plays in the NIT I hope Woodson plays the guys who will be around next year significant minutes. If he knows anyone who is leaving then let them sit. Work on molding the new core

[IUCrazy2]

18 minutes ago, btownqb said:

Well.. he guarded him really well in the half court all game. I don't understand why the last possession should have been any different. 

We got lost for 12 points on miscommunications/poor awareness of rotations.. 4 3s because we couldn't do the little things. RT twice, PS once, RP once. But no, saw no issue with the subbing. Holy cow can we miss wide open looks though.  

Those 4 plays defensively mattered light years more than any subbing did.  

Honestly, everything matters because the margin of error on this team is nonexistent.

Also, saw this stat on another site, but in games this year we are +93 scoring in the first half and -90 in the second.  We have a coaching staff that can game plan pretty well but all year they have failed to prepare for the adjustments.  That's coaching.

[IU Scott]

6 minutes ago, Cbp4IU said:

All I know is if IU plays in the NIT I hope Woodson plays the guys who will be around next year significant minutes. If he knows anyone who is leaving then let them sit. Work on molding the new core

I don't care for the NIT and rather lose in tbe first round of the tournament.  Saying that if we play in the NIT, I would like us to go far and get the younger guys done more court time.

[KoB2011]

35 minutes ago, 5fouls said:

Which brings a point I made last night.  Why wasn't Rob in on that last defensive play?  He would have done a much better job guarding Harper.  

Because we couldn’t sub…

EDIT: Rob would not have been guarding Harper on that play in any scenario. Seriously?

Edited March 3, 2022 by KoB2011

[NCHoosier32]

i haven't really considered myself apathetic, but i guess i am.  i wasn't surprised last night and not as upset as i used to get.  as i always say, i pretty much never miss a game and record when needed.  that won't change, but man my hope for the season wasn't even that high.  just wanted to make the tourney and be around the top 25.  when i thought we'd finish 3-6 down the stretch, i actually thought that would get us in, but now we're going to go 2-7?  not saying Woodson isn't the guy, and i know he'll get at least 3-4 years, but at the same time i wish i could say i feel good because our coach has a track record of getting teams to the tourney, winning in the tourney, building a college program, something.  

[btownqb]

8 minutes ago, IUCrazy2 said:

Honestly, everything matters because the margin of error on this team is nonexistent.

Also, saw this stat on another site, but in games this year we are +93 scoring in the first half and -90 in the second.  We have a coaching staff that can game plan pretty well but all year they have failed to prepare for the adjustments.  That's coaching.

Or we just need to hit more wide open 3s

[Artesian_86]

24 minutes ago, btownqb said:

Well.. he guarded him really well in the half court all game. I don't understand why the last possession should have been any different. 

We got lost for 12 points on miscommunications/poor awareness of rotations.. 4 3s because we couldn't do the little things. RT twice, PS once, RP once. But no, saw no issue with the subbing. Holy cow can we miss wide open looks though.  

Those 4 plays defensively mattered light years more than any subbing did.  

Bottom line,......wide open shots gotta' go through the net. We had way too many wide open shots from behind the arch and easy bunnies down around the basket. Those bunnies just clanked off the backboard and rim. You and I both agree,......Coach draws up the plays that put them in position to score, it's then up the the players to finish the deal! I don't know how much more obvious this is. 

[IUCrazy2]

15 minutes ago, AxnJxn said:

/vent

I'm sure I'm not alone on this, but losing last night really, really sucks. I love the NCAAT for many reasons - it's IMO the best sporting event of the year, it's a sign that winter is over, and it's just ... brilliant. But, it loses value when we're not in it. I'm resigned to rooting against teams, or for the little guys, or whatever. Not being in it for what seems like decades is just terrible, and it's getting kind of exhausting. 

I was really excited for last night's game, because I thought it was a great chance for the program to turn the corner, to start a new book with a fresh page, to finally get over that hump of not making the tournament. I was excited from the moment I got up and throughout the day. So, yeah, today I'm still kind of bummed, and it's looking very likely that I'll be watching another tournament without IU, which blows.

I'm 54 years old. Fortunate enough to be on campus in 87, through RMK's salad years and whatnot, so I've seen the highest of highs. I'm not really even expecting those levels any more (which is also sad in a completely different way), but is it really that difficult to just get into the tournament? Hell, I was even ok with being an 11 seed, which is kind of ridiculous for a program like IU's. 

Anyway.

/end vent

Right there with you other than I have about zero interest in the tournament if Indiana is not playing in it.  Too much other stuff going on in life to watch what is really kind of boring basketball in most instances when you don't care about the outcome.

I attended the NIT the last time we were in that, have no desire to watch that garbage anymore either.  This year has sucked it out of me again, just ready to get our @$$ beat at Purdue, flame out in our first BTT game per usual and follow that up with our no one wants to be here loss early in the NIT.

And then we will have an off season where we get all sorts of updates about how awesome Player X is doing and how much they have improved while we are going to be this much better because of the freshmen and Player Y we added from the portal.  Then we will probably all be back here next year at the same time sitting at about 18 to 19 wins fretting about our NCAA chances again, while sitting just around .500 in the league.  We're the Chicago Cubs from about 1930's to the early 2000's.  

Expecting this program to be anything more than that until they actually show it is just setting yourself up for disappointment.  This year was a wash, rinse, repeat of every year since Crean's last.  Multiple coaches, multiple players, same crappy results.

For our sake, Woodson better figure it out because I think the next few hires after him are going to be mid major crap shoots like Miller if he doesn't.  And our track record on picking coaches worth a damn is abysmal.

[rico]

2 minutes ago, btownqb said:

Or we just need to hit more wide open 3s

Or we need guys that are capable of hitting wide open 3s?

[IUCrazy2]

3 minutes ago, btownqb said:

Or we just need to hit more wide open 3s

At a certain point you have to realize that is not going to happen, at least not with the guys on the court and you have to adjust accordingly.

What is the definition of insanity?  Kopp and Stewart, despite whatever their shooting percentages say, have been pretty unreliable scorers all year.

[IUFLA]

I'm a bit simple minded, but it seems like a simple issue to me...

Our coaching is fine. We get open looks and we play good defense for the most part. Every team every game is going to have some breakdowns. Subbing pattern is fine...

What it boils down to is when Rutgers needed their go to guys, they got results. We didn't. Think about a couple of the late game buckets Mulcahy, McConnell, and even Hyatt made on the inside. They weren't going to be denied. And of course Harper with the dagger. He knew he was going to make that shot... confidence and mental toughness. And that's contagious.

Also, one of our last possessions, we got two good shots, one by Race, and one by Trayce on the rebound. Neither had the confidence or tenacity they were going to score no matter what. And we're a bit hamstrung that our go to guys are post players rather than wings or guards (like Harper and Baker) because once you get it down there in the post, your options are limited. 

Stewart got open looks at the end too...he just doesn't have the late game confidence that the Rutgers kids had. I do tip my cap to him for making the shot that tied it, and even taking it showed a certain moxie. And I think Coach Woody calling his number again after he'd struggled shows how much he believes in these players...

Sadly, in crunch time, they don't believe in themselves  sometimes...

[KoB2011]

2 minutes ago, IUFLA said:

I'm a bit simple minded, but it seems like a simple issue to me...

Our coaching is fine. We get open looks and we play good defense for the most part. Every team every game is going to have some breakdowns. Subbing pattern is fine...

What it boils down to is when Rutgers needed their go to guys, they got results. We didn't. Think about a couple of the late game buckets Mulcahy, McConnell, and even Hyatt made on the inside. They weren't going to be denied. And of course Harper with the dagger. He knew he was going to make that shot... confidence and mental toughness. And that's contagious.

Also, one of our last possessions, we got two good shots, one by Race, and one by Trayce on the rebound. Neither had the confidence or tenacity they were going to score no matter what. And we're a bit hamstrung that our go to guys are post players rather than wings or guards (like Harper and Baker) because once you get it down there in the post, your options are limited. 

Stewart got open looks at the end too...he just doesn't have the late game confidence that the Rutgers kids had. I do tip my cap to him for making the shot that tied it, and even taking it showed a certain moxie. And I think Coach Woody calling his number again after he'd struggled shows how much he believes in these players...

Sadly, in crunch time, they don't believe in themselves  sometimes...

Harper looks like a kid who grew up with a dad who knows what big moments are like, and it showed.

We lost last night guys our guys couldn’t hit wide open shots but guys like Harper and Baker could hit tough shots (not junk like some of Minny, just tough). We need guys like Baker and Harper. 

[BGleas]

7 minutes ago, IUFLA said:

I'm a bit simple minded, but it seems like a simple issue to me...

Our coaching is fine. We get open looks and we play good defense for the most part. Every team every game is going to have some breakdowns. Subbing pattern is fine...

What it boils down to is when Rutgers needed their go to guys, they got results. We didn't. Think about a couple of the late game buckets Mulcahy, McConnell, and even Hyatt made on the inside. They weren't going to be denied. And of course Harper with the dagger. He knew he was going to make that shot... confidence and mental toughness. And that's contagious.

Also, one of our last possessions, we got two good shots, one by Race, and one by Trayce on the rebound. Neither had the confidence or tenacity they were going to score no matter what. And we're a bit hamstrung that our go to guys are post players rather than wings or guards (like Harper and Baker) because once you get it down there in the post, your options are limited. 

Stewart got open looks at the end too...he just doesn't have the late game confidence that the Rutgers kids had. I do tip my cap to him for making the shot that tied it, and even taking it showed a certain moxie. And I think Coach Woody calling his number again after he'd struggled shows how much he believes in these players...

Sadly, in crunch time, they don't believe in themselves  sometimes...

This has been the overriding issue for 5 years. It's not subbing, it's not this guy should play 3 more minutes and that guy 2 less. 

We don't have finishers. We don't have dogs. We don't have ballers. 

We haven't had that since Yogi's senior year, and it wasn't just Yogi. That team had killers and that team had 4 guys that at minimum had a cup of coffee in the NBA. 

Johnny Davis and Brad Davison are closers. Trent Frazier is a closer. Bohannon and Keegan Murray are closers. Stefanovic and at times Ivey are closers. Aaron Henry was a closer last year for MSU. Baker and Harper are closers. 

Mike Woodson needs to get some dogs, some killers, some closers and he needs to get them quick. 

Big games, close games, they're more about makes/misses then sub patterns. They're more about having closers that can take and make shots at winning time then they are about X's and O's. 

[btownqb]

11 minutes ago, rico said:

Or we need guys that are capable of hitting wide open 3s?

Or its the same thing 

[ledies22]

Is there a thread where level headed people can discuss?

[IUFLA]

8 minutes ago, KoB2011 said:

Harper looks like a kid who grew up with a dad who knows what big moments are like, and it showed.

We lost last night guys our guys couldn’t hit wide open shots but guys like Harper and Baker could hit tough shots (not junk like some of Minny, just tough). We need guys like Baker and Harper. 

And I think that's a culture thing that's not going to be solved in a year.

I think Mike Woodson is right when he says some of the players are still conditioned to the old culture. The mechanical play of an Archie Miller team as opposed to the freer flowing Mike Woodson philosophy of "if you're open, shoot the damn ball." 

He's trying to inject confidence in these kids and sometimes it shows...but when we run up against kids that have grown up in a positive culture like that, we defer...

We're just not up to Wisconsin's or even a Rutgers level in the culture department yet...it takes time

 

Edited March 3, 2022 by IUFLA

[5fouls]

20 minutes ago, KoB2011 said:

Because we couldn’t sub…

EDIT: Rob would not have been guarding Harper on that play in any scenario. Seriously?

Rob should have bee on the game for the game-tying fg attempt.  Sure, PS finally hit it, but who on our roster has proven to be someone that can hit big shots?  Hint:  Rhymes with 'Mob Hennesey'.

And, yes, Rob guards Harper better than Race does on that last shot.

[NotIThatLives]

1 hour ago, btownqb said:

Substitutions had absolutely zero bearing on that game. Race Thompson not understanding how to play defense with his hands up hurt though!

We burned the timeout to advance the ball and we got a game tying three out of it but out of timeouts.  No chance to set up defense.  Sure we would prefer a guy like Phinisee who would get in his guts, make him pass or have to elevate and shoot and awkward and more difficult shot.  

But yes, too easy, either way Race plays that he's beat.  All this talk that Race has NBA potential is foolish.  Who on earth can he guard?

[KoB2011]

3 minutes ago, 5fouls said:

Rob should have bee on the game for the game-tying fg attempt.  Sure, PS finally hit it, but who on our roster has proven to be someone that can hit big shots?  Hint:  Rhymes with 'Mob Hennesey'.

And, yes, Rob guards Harper better than Race does on that last shot.

Rob gets backed into the first row if he is guarding Harper. 

We got a 5 point play to tie the game, and you're complaining about the guys that were on the court for that and then saying Rob should have guarded a guy that has no joke something like 5 inches and 50 pounds on him. Even if Rob was in the game, there is absolutely no way he'd have guarded Harper. Race was going to guard Harper on that play unless he wasn't in the game; who else would you have put Race on?

Edited March 3, 2022 by KoB2011

[rico]

Another thought on the game last night...

[KoB2011]

4 minutes ago, NotIThatLives said:

We burned the timeout to advance the ball and we got a game tying three out of it but out of timeouts.  No chance to set up defense.  Sure we would prefer a guy like Phinisee who would get in his guts, make him pass or have to elevate and shoot and awkward and more difficult shot.  

But yes, too easy, either way Race plays that he's beat.  All this talk that Race has NBA potential is foolish.  Who on earth can he guard?

The shot went through the hoop with over 2 seconds left; there was way too much time to just get into him, he'd have gone right past him for either a layup or a dumpoff for an easy dunk. 

I'd have liked a little tighter coverage, but out of the options on that play a Harper pull-up was what I was most okay with. 

[btownqb]

5 minutes ago, 5fouls said:

Rob should have bee on the game for the game-tying fg attempt.  Sure, PS finally hit it, but who on our roster has proven to be someone that can hit big shots?  Hint:  Rhymes with 'Mob Hennesey'.

And, yes, Rob guards Harper better than Race does on that last shot.

No he doesn't. This is a crazy complaint, man. 

[tdhoosier]

1 hour ago, btownqb said:

Substitutions had absolutely zero bearing on that game. Race Thompson not understanding how to play defense with his hands up hurt though!

There’s never one reason for a loss; there are many. And I will continue to disagree with you on this subject. The bad substitutions continue to be a factor in our losses. 

Example: In the first half when we were rolling, in comes the line up of Rob, Geronimo, Durr, Bates and P Stew. In that stretch we were -2. Sure, you may say they held the lead while the starters got some rest. But we lost momentum. We lost an opportunity to expanded our lead in what turned out to be a one possession game. 

A line up is not good when the only thing you’re asking of them is to try and hold the lead. In our case: one of TJD or Race have to be on the floor. And when Gallo is healthy, Stew and Kopp should not be on the floor at the same time. 

Yes, starters need rest and I’m all for getting them rest, but we can rotate through the substitutions just like EVERY other team in college basketball. Woody also needs to be quicker to act when the combination of players on the floor isn’t working. Geronimo is a guy who seems comfortable cutting to the middle of a zone, but wasn’t put in until we lost all momentum. Yes, we don’t have killers. We freeze up at the end of the game. Our opponents make adjustments. Our opponents want to win too. Blah, blah, blah, excuse, excuse, excuse. These realities are even more reason why we need to take advantage of every second in the first 30 minutes. Killing bursts of momentum come back to bite us. It has in just about every one of our losses. 

Edited March 3, 2022 by tdhoosier