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The non-IU National Tournament thread…


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8 minutes ago, 5fouls said:

Frustrating in what way?  Aside from IU losing, I consider this to be a fascinating tourney.  I think we're seeing the result of more freedom of player movement as well as players not going pro as quickly.  I'll easily take this year's tourney over one that only sees 1, 2, & 3 seeds advance.

For sure fascinating... and the left side of the bracket is nutty...

.... but it has been frustrating for me because I haven't watched a team yet that we wouldn't have a 50% chance of beating on a neutral court with XJ. This team had a real shot to make a run until his injury happened. 

I'd love to see XJ vs Norwell/Pack 

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7 minutes ago, btownqb said:

For sure fascinating... and the left side of the bracket is nutty...

.... but it has been frustrating for me because I haven't watched a team yet that we wouldn't have a 50% chance of beating on a neutral court with XJ. This team had a real shot to make a run until his injury happened. 

I'd love to see XJ vs Norwell/Pack 

Yeah, XJ would have changed a lot this season. I think the big things are XJ's injury, which alone would have made a big difference, and then the lack of development from Bates and Geronimo. 

Those three things change and we look a lot like these remaining teams, if not even better given how dominant TJD was. 

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40 minutes ago, 5fouls said:

Frustrating in what way?  Aside from IU losing, I consider this to be a fascinating tourney.  I think we're seeing the result of more freedom of player movement as well as players not going pro as quickly.  I'll easily take this year's tourney over one that only sees 1, 2, & 3 seeds advance.

I bet the NCAA doesn't feel the same... but I do.. I like seeing kids with a sling shot have a chance...

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1 hour ago, 5fouls said:

Frustrating in what way?  Aside from IU losing, I consider this to be a fascinating tourney.  I think we're seeing the result of more freedom of player movement as well as players not going pro as quickly.  I'll easily take this year's tourney over one that only sees 1, 2, & 3 seeds advance.

Frustrating in that, I think it is validating approaches that I believe will eventually be the death of what made college basketball different from the pros.

Taking away my irrational attachment to Indiana basketball, my rational side has a hard time squaring the true value of these programs to their respective schools anymore.  There used to be the argument they drove donations to the school.  I believe this validates that if you want to watch your team win, you need to get the Nijel Packs of the world money, not be donating to some vague athletic or academic fund.  And most of these athletic programs lose money.  Indiana being self sufficient and operating in the black most years is not the norm.

I turn 45 later this year.  Maybe my "Get off my lawn" phase is starting to kick in but I view Miami doing what they are doing as being just as yuck as what Kentucky did in the past.  It is just out in the open now.

ETA:  And I forgot the selfish side that btownqb mentioned up above.  This Thing was open for the taking, maybe not as much as Scott May and Alan Henderson injuries, but that Johnson injury will have people playing some what ifs about this year given the Final 8 teams left right now.

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5 minutes ago, IUCrazy2 said:

Frustrating in that, I think it is validating approaches that I believe will eventually be the death of what made college basketball different from the pros.

Taking away my irrational attachment to Indiana basketball, my rational side has a hard time squaring the true value of these programs to their respective schools anymore.  There used to be the argument they drove donations to the school.  I believe this validates that if you want to watch your team win, you need to get the Nijel Packs of the world money, not be donating to some vague athletic or academic fund.  And most of these athletic programs lose money.  Indiana being self sufficient and operating in the black most years is not the norm.

I turn 45 later this year.  Maybe my "Get off my lawn" phase is starting to kick in but I view Miami doing what they are doing as being just as yuck as what Kentucky did in the past.  It is just out in the open now.

ETA:  And I forgot the selfish side that btownqb mentioned up above.  This Thing was open for the taking, maybe not as much as Scott May and Alan Henderson injuries, but that Johnson injury will have people playing some what ifs about this year given the Final 8 teams left right now.

The 'financial' side has always played a part.  UK, UL, Duke (yes, they cheated), and all the way back to Wooden's UCLA teams are all examples of the mighty dollar playing a part in who wins the Championship.  This year, yes, you have the deep pockets of Miami scenario, but you also had a school like Princeton making a run where you know those types of payments were not being made.

The interesting thing about Pack is that, based on the side of the bracket they are on, Kansas State probably has a better chance of winning it all than Miami does.  Wouldn't that be something.  

 

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1 minute ago, 5fouls said:

The 'financial' side has always played a part.  UK, UL, Duke (yes, they cheated), and all the way back to Wooden's UCLA teams are all examples of the mighty dollar playing a part in who wins the Championship.  This year, yes, you have the deep pockets of Miami scenario, but you also had a school like Princeton making a run where you know those types of payments were not being made.

The interesting thing about Pack is that, based on the side of the bracket they are on, Kansas State probably has a better chance of winning it all than Miami does.  Wouldn't that be something.  

 

Oh yeah, it always came into play but it was something that you couldn't be that blatant about.  Even the most egregious payments we knew about in the under the table pay for play days amounted to $250,000? tops and that was for guys who likely would have gone straight to the pros if not for the NBA rules.  Pack got paid $400k this year as the 3rd or 4th best player on his team and likely a very slim shot at playing in the NBA.

Just looking at thia from a non-sports fan perspective, we have a huge student loan debt issue in this country and the institutions that basically cause a large portion of this debt are setting up schemes to get millions of dollars a year into the pockets of people whose endeavors are being subsidized (through school fees at most institutions) by people who end up saddled with this debt.  And at the end of the day they aren't offering much more value to the school because everything they generate gets fed back into them.

Big time college basketball and football programs are now minor league teams.  There has been a blurry line that was maintained for a long time with the whole "amateur" thing.  I think the line is gone so now the question becomes, what value do these add to the educational mission of the school and at what point are they detracting from that.  And I also agree with Swarbrick that many of these NIL collectives are fraudulent.  People are deducting "charitable" donations to fund their local minor league sports team.  That isn't real charity.

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8 minutes ago, IUCrazy2 said:

Oh yeah, it always came into play but it was something that you couldn't be that blatant about.  Even the most egregious payments we knew about in the under the table pay for play days amounted to $250,000? tops and that was for guys who likely would have gone straight to the pros if not for the NBA rules.  Pack got paid $400k this year as the 3rd or 4th best player on his team and likely a very slim shot at playing in the NBA.

Just looking at thia from a non-sports fan perspective, we have a huge student loan debt issue in this country and the institutions that basically cause a large portion of this debt are setting up schemes to get millions of dollars a year into the pockets of people whose endeavors are being subsidized (through school fees at most institutions) by people who end up saddled with this debt.  And at the end of the day they aren't offering much more value to the school because everything they generate gets fed back into them.

Big time college basketball and football programs are now minor league teams.  There has been a blurry line that was maintained for a long time with the whole "amateur" thing.  I think the line is gone so now the question becomes, what value do these add to the educational mission of the school and at what point are they detracting from that.  And I also agree with Swarbrick that many of these NIL collectives are fraudulent.  People are deducting "charitable" donations to fund their local minor league sports team.  That isn't real charity.

Everything you say has merit.  Not going to disagree with any of it.  But, a least for me, the entertainment value of this year's tournament (save for IU's loss) has been at its highest level since the 1990's.

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1 minute ago, 5fouls said:

Everything you say has merit.  Not going to disagree with any of it.  But, a least for me, the entertainment value of this year's tournament (save for IU's loss) has been at its highest level since the 1990's.

People like the upsets and Cinderellas and this has definitely provided that.

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12 minutes ago, IUCrazy2 said:

Oh yeah, it always came into play but it was something that you couldn't be that blatant about.  Even the most egregious payments we knew about in the under the table pay for play days amounted to $250,000? tops and that was for guys who likely would have gone straight to the pros if not for the NBA rules.  Pack got paid $400k this year as the 3rd or 4th best player on his team and likely a very slim shot at playing in the NBA.

Just looking at thia from a non-sports fan perspective, we have a huge student loan debt issue in this country and the institutions that basically cause a large portion of this debt are setting up schemes to get millions of dollars a year into the pockets of people whose endeavors are being subsidized (through school fees at most institutions) by people who end up saddled with this debt.  And at the end of the day they aren't offering much more value to the school because everything they generate gets fed back into them.

Big time college basketball and football programs are now minor league teams.  There has been a blurry line that was maintained for a long time with the whole "amateur" thing.  I think the line is gone so now the question becomes, what value do these add to the educational mission of the school and at what point are they detracting from that.  And I also agree with Swarbrick that many of these NIL collectives are fraudulent.  People are deducting "charitable" donations to fund their local minor league sports team.  That isn't real charity.

Well said!! 

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24 minutes ago, mrflynn03 said:

Even though its football, KSU did have Bill Snyder.  Thats gives the university some redeeming qualities,  

Kansas State is the Purdue of the Big 12, and little bro to Kansas just as the Boilermakers are to IU...

They've actually been to the Final 4 twice as many times as Purdue has, though :) 

 

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4 hours ago, IUCrazy2 said:

Oh yeah, it always came into play but it was something that you couldn't be that blatant about.  Even the most egregious payments we knew about in the under the table pay for play days amounted to $250,000? tops and that was for guys who likely would have gone straight to the pros if not for the NBA rules.  Pack got paid $400k this year as the 3rd or 4th best player on his team and likely a very slim shot at playing in the NBA.

Just looking at thia from a non-sports fan perspective, we have a huge student loan debt issue in this country and the institutions that basically cause a large portion of this debt are setting up schemes to get millions of dollars a year into the pockets of people whose endeavors are being subsidized (through school fees at most institutions) by people who end up saddled with this debt.  And at the end of the day they aren't offering much more value to the school because everything they generate gets fed back into them.

Big time college basketball and football programs are now minor league teams.  There has been a blurry line that was maintained for a long time with the whole "amateur" thing.  I think the line is gone so now the question becomes, what value do these add to the educational mission of the school and at what point are they detracting from that.  And I also agree with Swarbrick that many of these NIL collectives are fraudulent.  People are deducting "charitable" donations to fund their local minor league sports team.  That isn't real charity.

I’ll bet the IRS agrees with you and Swarbrick on these “charitable donations”….

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31 minutes ago, Boiler Sam said:

I’ll bet the IRS agrees with you and Swarbrick on these “charitable donations”….

Yeah...it's likely not legit charity.  More likely, deductions are being taken by businesses for advertising & marketing.  Individuals with no business purpose are going to have to be very careful who they are donating to.

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6 hours ago, IUCrazy2 said:

Oh yeah, it always came into play but it was something that you couldn't be that blatant about.  Even the most egregious payments we knew about in the under the table pay for play days amounted to $250,000? tops and that was for guys who likely would have gone straight to the pros if not for the NBA rules.  Pack got paid $400k this year as the 3rd or 4th best player on his team and likely a very slim shot at playing in the NBA.

Just looking at thia from a non-sports fan perspective, we have a huge student loan debt issue in this country and the institutions that basically cause a large portion of this debt are setting up schemes to get millions of dollars a year into the pockets of people whose endeavors are being subsidized (through school fees at most institutions) by people who end up saddled with this debt.  And at the end of the day they aren't offering much more value to the school because everything they generate gets fed back into them.

Big time college basketball and football programs are now minor league teams.  There has been a blurry line that was maintained for a long time with the whole "amateur" thing.  I think the line is gone so now the question becomes, what value do these add to the educational mission of the school and at what point are they detracting from that.  And I also agree with Swarbrick that many of these NIL collectives are fraudulent.  People are deducting "charitable" donations to fund their local minor league sports team.  That isn't real charity.

Look up Bobby Lowder and Auburn. Then look up Al Capone. The IRS and FEC will be the ones to eventually change things. For a while at least.

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6 hours ago, IUCrazy2 said:

People like the upsets and Cinderellas and this has definitely provided that.

For diehard college basketball fans like us we love Cinderellas!

I would argue that the average fan doesn’t and that final four viewer data shows that fans would prefer to watch blue bloods and P5 teams in the final four. 
https://www.sportsmediawatch.com/ncaa-final-four-ratings-history-most-watched-games-cbs-tbs-nbc/
 

Also, not to toot our own horn but Indiana still has the most watched game “The all-time record highs are a 24.1 rating and 35.1 million viewers for Michigan State-Indiana State on NBC in 1979.”

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2 minutes ago, SawatchHoosier said:

For diehard college basketball fans like us we love Cinderellas!

I would argue that the average fan doesn’t and that final four viewer data shows that fans would prefer to watch blue bloods and P5 teams in the final four. 
https://www.sportsmediawatch.com/ncaa-final-four-ratings-history-most-watched-games-cbs-tbs-nbc/
 

Also, not to toot our own horn but Indiana still has the most watched game “The all-time record highs are a 24.1 rating and 35.1 million viewers for Michigan State-Indiana State on NBC in 1979.”

I'll say it's the opposite reason Blue Bloods get ratings.  It's not the average fan who is not tuning in.  It's the fans of the Blue Bloods that don't watch when their team is not playing.  I know for a fact that UK fans are some of the least educated college fans out there.  And, I'm not talking about book smarts.  They just don't watch basketball if UK isn't playing.  I've worked with hundreds of them over the years, and they always ask me 'How's IU doing this year?'

 

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