UConn post game thread

[Muddy River]

Question for the board.  And I’m not asking to be argumentative, I sincerely want to know.  Why is this a poorly constructed roster?  To my uneducated eyes, we have an NBA talent center in Ware.  We have Mack (MCD AA) , Malik, Kaleb, Peyton (All MAC), and Walker at forward.  Then there is X, Gallo, Gunn, Newton, and Cupps at guard.  That’s 11 guys who should play minutes.  A 11 man rotation would be pretty deep.  As for shooters, there should be improvement in Gallo and Gunn, Mack was supposed to be one of the better shooters in the class, and Cupps had the stones to challenge LeBron to a shooting contest, and hung in.  So I can understand an argument that there hasn’t been enough development, and that maybe some of the guys have not lived up to the hype, and that can be on the coaches.  Some in game coaching has been questionable, but how is the roster poorly constructed?

 

[BGleas]

3 minutes ago, Muddy River said:

Question for the board.  And I’m not asking to be argumentative, I sincerely want to know.  Why is this a poorly constructed roster?  To my uneducated eyes, we have an NBA talent center in Ware.  We have Mack (MCD AA) , Malik, Kaleb, Peyton (All MAC), and Walker at forward.  Then there is X, Gallo, Gunn, Newton, and Cupps at guard.  That’s 11 guys who should play minutes.  A 11 man rotation would be pretty deep.  As for shooters, there should be improvement in Gallo and Gunn, Mack was supposed to be one of the better shooters in the class, and Cupps had the stones to challenge LeBron to a shooting contest, and hung in.  So I can understand an argument that there hasn’t been enough development, and that maybe some of the guys have not lived up to the hype, and that can be on the coaches.  Some in game coaching has been questionable, but how is the roster poorly constructed?

 

I think you bring up some really interesting points. 

I think from a roster construction standpoint, it's too forward/big heavy and not enough guard/wing heavy. Maybe that would be different if Newton was healthy and another guard had been added with the final scholarship. 

But to your point, I'm just as frustrated with how the roster is being utilized. I've been pretty vocal that I hate our style of play. 

I think our style is antiquated, old and won't hold up over the season. Despite his poor defense, i think we've utilized Mgbako completely wrong. He's a 4, not a 3. 

I think we've zapped any/all confidence from the shooters we do have with our style of play. 

[Hoosierdave]

40 minutes ago, 13th&Jackson said:

We’re not quick enough to press

Not saying it’s something we should be doing regularly, but when you’re down by 10+ points with like 6 minutes remaining, there’s nothing you have to lose at that rate. I’d rather see a team exhausting all options than just rolling over and giving up. 

[rico]

JSMH

[MoyeCowbell]

4 minutes ago, Muddy River said:

Question for the board.  And I’m not asking to be argumentative, I sincerely want to know.  Why is this a poorly constructed roster?  To my uneducated eyes, we have an NBA talent center in Ware.  We have Mack (MCD AA) , Malik, Kaleb, Peyton (All MAC), and Walker at forward.  Then there is X, Gallo, Gunn, Newton, and Cupps at guard.  That’s 11 guys who should play minutes.  A 11 man rotation would be pretty deep.  As for shooters, there should be improvement in Gallo and Gunn, Mack was supposed to be one of the better shooters in the class, and Cupps had the stones to challenge LeBron to a shooting contest, and hung in.  So I can understand an argument that there hasn’t been enough development, and that maybe some of the guys have not lived up to the hype, and that can be on the coaches.  Some in game coaching has been questionable, but how is the roster poorly constructed?

 

I'll take a stab.

Our starting 5 are our best players, but it might not be the best lineup. The overall balance is off.

Our starting PG is probably more of a score-first type, who is benefited by an above-average athletic front court, of which we really only have one guy (Ware). His backup might ultimately be better overall, but is a freshman and simply needs more reps.

Our starting SG is really a slashing SF, and streaky as a shooter. Our backup SG (Gunn) hasn't found the pace and confidence on the offensive side yet. (I said it earlier, but I thought he made nice strides today on the defensive end.) We don't have a Rod Wilmont, Zeisloft, Blackmon, hell, DeVonte Green-type guy that can get hot and torch dudes.

Our starting SF is a strong midrange shooter, but is a freshman. We don't really have a solid backup for him that can stretch the floor. And as others have said, he might be more effective (at times) being a stretch 4.

Our starting PF is very good offensively, but foul prone. Could make the case he plays better as the 5 when Ware isn't in. Backup PFs are shaky at the moment. Walker is too wild. Banks is too fast. Sparks is too slow.

Our center needs to play the whole game for us to have a chance. No real backup, unless Reneau leads 2nd unit, but then we would lose his scoring.

[13th&Jackson]

10 minutes ago, BGleas said:

I think you bring up some really interesting points. 

I think from a roster construction standpoint, it's too forward/big heavy and not enough guard/wing heavy. Maybe that would be different if Newton was healthy and another guard had been added with the final scholarship. 

But to your point, I'm just as frustrated with how the roster is being utilized. I've been pretty vocal that I hate our style of play. 

I think our style is antiquated, old and won't hold up over the season. Despite his poor defense, i think we've utilized Mgbako completely wrong. He's a 4, not a 3. 

I think we've zapped any/all confidence from the shooters we do have with our style of play. 

That last point is a good one. In three of four games, IU has attempted 45 or fewer shots. When attempting so few shots, every miss is magnified, especially when we don’t get offensive rebounds. I see every CBB team except IU shooting threes off the break. 

[bronkonagurski]

My thoughts:

• Losing by 20 did not surprise me but at least we were in the game somewhat for 30ish minutes until it fell apart
• Refs suck
• We have to make open shots on the perimeter. Make. Open. Shots.
• Walker doesn't look like he belongs anywhere but on the bench. I'd literally rather watch anyone else play his minutes, even a walk-on
• Nice to see MR get some work done inside
• Disappointed Ware faded
• X gets too worked up about calls. He needs to be a leader out there, a calming force.

Overall yeah the offense looks so disjointed. Just going to hope it all comes together at some point, lots of ball left to play.

Beat Louisville!

[KoB2011]

1 hour ago, Steubenhoosier said:

They played with the #5 teams in the country for 30 minutes. Build off of that.

Or, I could repeat for the 20th time that the team is poorly constructed. Or for the umpteenth time that we got out rebounded. Or for the hundredth time that we don’t shoot enough 3’s. Or how about this one… X is too emotional, out of control, not a leader and is playing lousy 

I think we all want to see them build towards being a good team, don’t you?

When you’re trying to improve do you not try to identify the areas you can improve and how to fix them?

And you’re not wrong about what we got out of X. Has anyone said otherwise?

[IU Scott]

To me this teams reminds me of some of the last few teams of the RMK era. They had some individual talent but didn't always gel as a team. At least those teams played well enough to make the tournament so I hope this team can as well.

[IUCrazy2]

10 hours ago, Muddy River said:

Question for the board.  And I’m not asking to be argumentative, I sincerely want to know.  Why is this a poorly constructed roster?  To my uneducated eyes, we have an NBA talent center in Ware.  We have Mack (MCD AA) , Malik, Kaleb, Peyton (All MAC), and Walker at forward.  Then there is X, Gallo, Gunn, Newton, and Cupps at guard.  That’s 11 guys who should play minutes.  A 11 man rotation would be pretty deep.  As for shooters, there should be improvement in Gallo and Gunn, Mack was supposed to be one of the better shooters in the class, and Cupps had the stones to challenge LeBron to a shooting contest, and hung in.  So I can understand an argument that there hasn’t been enough development, and that maybe some of the guys have not lived up to the hype, and that can be on the coaches.  Some in game coaching has been questionable, but how is the roster poorly constructed?

 

You have 3 guys starting that basically are all interested in playing the same position.  Your 2 main scorers so far are players that demand the ball in the same area and each has a legitimate claim to being the "guy" down there.  You once again do not have a shooter/slasher on the wing and the aforementioned 2 "alphas" down low clog the lane so you have 3 guys standing around on the perimeter.  One is basically a 4 being asked to play a 3 so he has become Miller Kopp.  Stand in the corner, too slow to take his man, hoping for kick outs that don't come.

The guards similarly have no driving lanes, the pick and roll is almost entirely designed to get our 2 bigs the ball, and we run nothing to get open looks for perimeter players.  Looks they could get are often missed because the 2 black holes down low are focused on one thing when they get the ball.

We were 3/13 from 3.  2/3 of our made 3's were from our 7'1" center at the top of the key.  

The most inexplicable and unexcusable thing for me is the lack of rebounding though.  If you are going to build a big team that has no 3 point shooting and slow defense on the perimeter, you HAVE to rebound.  

We got punked yesterday and basically held out our plate and asked for more gruel.

[IUCrazy2]

11 hours ago, Steubenhoosier said:

Where’s the beat the dead horse meme when you need it?

I don't know why you are expecting sunshine and roses after 3 lackluster wins against vastly inferior competition and a 20 point blowout loss to the first team we played with a pulse.  If it weren't for the dead horse to beat, there wouldn't be anything to talk about.

We haven't played well this year at all.  Discussion is going to reflect that.

[Artesian_86]

We definitely have growing pains.... When one piston in an engine miss fires the whole engine runs rough. It's usually a fouled spark plug or wire... I see that with this team. Last year we had that attacking, scoring guard/Small forward type type player like JHS. IMO, Mgbako is that player that this team desperately needs to come alive on both ends of the floor. I'm not putting this all on MM's shoulders, but yesterday we needed his 5* talent and play. I know he is learning, but he just seems lost at times. 

[IUCrazy2]

2 minutes ago, Artesian_86 said:

We definitely have growing pains.... When one piston in an engine miss fires the whole engine runs rough. It's usually a fouled spark plug or wire... I see that with this team. Last year we had that attacking, scoring guard/Small forward type type player like JHS. IMO, Mgbako is that player that this team desperately needs to come alive on both ends of the floor. I'm not putting this all on MM's shoulders, but yesterday we needed his 5* talent and play. I know he is learning, but he just seems lost at times. 

He is lost more often than he isn't.  If he was any other player (like Gunn or Banks) he would be on the pine to start the game.  I wouldn't start him today.  Gunn hasn't been all world but I think he deserves that 3 spot and I would bring in Mgbako for Reneau.

Edited November 20, 2023 by IUCrazy2

[BGleas]

14 minutes ago, IUCrazy2 said:

You have 3 guys starting that basically are all interested in playing the same position.  Your 2 main scorers so far are players that demand the ball in the same area and each has a legitimate claim to being the "guy" down there.  You once again do not have a shooter/slasher on the wing and the aforementioned 2 "alphas" down low clog the lane so you have 3 guys standing around on the perimeter.  One is basically a 4 being asked to play a 3 so he has become Miller Kopp.  Stand in the corner, too slow to take his man, hoping for kick outs that don't come.

The guards similarly have no driving lanes, the pick and roll is almost entirely designed to get our 2 bigs the ball, and we run nothing to get open looks for perimeter players.  Looks they could get are often missed because the 2 black holes down low are focused on one thing when they get the ball.

We were 3/13 from 3.  2/3 of our made 3's were from our 7'1" center at the top of the key.  

The most inexplicable and unexcusable thing for me is the lack of rebounding though.  If you are going to build a big team that has no 3 point shooting and slow defense on the perimeter, you HAVE to rebound.  

We got punked yesterday and basically held out our plate and asked for more gruel.

Great post! Something that really frustrated me in the game thread is that we had Reneau going on the block and Ware had hit two 3's, yet we were still going with both in the paint together or Ware diving to the rim when Reneau would get it. 

Why not have Ware spot up to keep Clingan out of the paint and then have Galloway slash to the rim?

Also agree with your point about our bigs lack of passing. I know Reneau has been racking up assists but part of that is his usage and several of those assists are big-to-big. 

But for the most part, our bigs are only kicking it out if absolutely necessary. It's a last resort. Yesterday, Reneau couldn't care less that UConn was sending double or triple teams, it was going up. 

I get that Reneau and Ware are scoring, so there is a bit of a weird complaint, but this team isn't going anywhere if it's 'dump it down and stand' and just hope our bigs outscore the other team from the paint. 

Not saying it all has to be 3's, but we need to get Galloway and XJ space. We need to figure out how to get MM involved offensively, etc., etc. 

Our offense is one option and hope it works. We have no other offensive fallback plan. 

[IUCrazy2]

2 minutes ago, BGleas said:

Great post! Something that really frustrated in the game thread is that we had Reneau going on the block and Ware had hit two 3's, yet we were still going with both in the paint together or Ware diving to the rim when Reneau would get it. 

Why not have Ware spot up to keep Clingan out of the paint and then have Galloway slash to the rim?

Also agree with your point about our bigs lack of passing. I know Reneau has been racking up assists but part of that is his usage and several of those assists are big-to-big. 

But for the most part, our bigs are only kicking it out if absolutely necessary. It's a past resort. Yesterday, Reneau couldn't care less that UConn was sending double or triple teams, it was going up. 

I get that Reneau and Ware are scoring, so there is a bit of a weird complaint, but this team isn't going anywhere if it's 'dump it down and stand' and just hope our bigs outscore the other team from the paint. 

Not saying it all has to be 3's, but we need to get Galloway and XJ space. We need to figure out how to get MM involved offensively, etc., etc. 

Our offense is one option and hope it works. We have no other offensive fallback plan. 

We need to move Ware up to the top of the key and have him setting those wide leg, hip checking screens to get guards open up there that everyone runs these days.  They are all illegal screens but they don't get called, so make that part of the game.

To me it is all about intention.  When our bigs set that screen, they expect that 80% of the time they are getting the ball out of the pick.  I feel other teams are using it to get their guard to the hole if the defender follows or an open 3 if the defender goes under the screen.  The screen is designed to free up the guard for our opponents and for us it is designed to get the ball to a post player.  (And an issue we have had since Woodson got here is 2 post players clogging that area.)

It is all about emphasis.  We don't run much of anything for our perimeter players.  They have to create to get their own.  What little we create that could be for them we instead use to get the ball to our 2 5* bigs at the 4 and 5.  Something they rarely return when it comes to kick outs.  So we have spot shooters like Mgbako, Cupps, and Gunn who are generally throwing up rushed shots because the few open shots the offense creates for them are completely missed by the guys going 1 v 3 in the post on every play.

[Artesian_86]

10 minutes ago, IUCrazy2 said:

He is lost more often than he isn't.  If he was any other player (like Gunn or Banks) he would be on the pine to start the game.  I wouldn't start him today.  Gunn hasn't been all world but I think he deserves that 3 spot and I would bring in Mgbako for Reneau.

Yes, he is lost....I wouldn't start him either. I have been surprised with is continued starting roll. It seems that he is usually the first one back on the bench when substitutions come around. I could be wrong.

[BGleas]

1 minute ago, IUCrazy2 said:

We need to move Ware up to the top of the key and have him setting those wide leg, hip checking screens to get guards open up there that everyone runs these days.  They are all illegal screens but they don't get called, so make that part of the game.

To me it is all about intention.  When our bigs set that screen, they expect that 80% of the time they are getting the ball out of the pick.  I feel other teams are using it to get their guard to the hole if the defender follows or an open 3 if the defender goes under the screen.  The screen is designed to free up the guard for our opponents and for us it is designed to get the ball to a post player.  (And an issue we have had since Woodson got here is 2 post players clogging that area.)

It is all about emphasis.  We don't run much of anything for our perimeter players.  They have to create to get their own.  What little we create that could be for them we instead use to get the ball to our 2 5* bigs at the 4 and 5.  Something they rarely return when it comes to kick outs.  So we have spot shooters like Mgbako, Cupps, and Gunn who are generally throwing up rushed shots because the few open shots the offense creates for them are completely missed by the guys going 1 v 3 in the post on every play.

Love this post and completely agree!! 

You could once the roster was pretty much set that we were going with two bigs again. But as talented as TJD was, he was also limited offensively. I thought this season with different skills that Reneau and Ware bring that Woodson would be using a different offensive system, but it hasn't happened. 

Our guards and wings are an afterthought in this offense. To your point, we don't run anything for them. 

I know there's mixed feelings on XJ, but as @KoB2011 has alluded too, his best stretch of basketball as a Hoosier was late in the year two seasons ago when Woodson midfied the offense to go with the XJ/TJD high PnR with the rest of the floor spread. 

XJ was fantastic. Why are we not doing that with Ware and then having Ware flare to the 3 or roll? Reneau can spit up too or dive if Ware flares, etc. 

There's just no spacing and we're using bigs with different skill-sets the exact same way we used last years bigs. 

[Maedhros]

16 hours ago, rogue3542 said:

Kind of where I am.  Sure, XJ had a bad game, but how much of it is because he was getting elbowed in the throat every other play, and then getting ghost foul calls on him at the other end?  You can say he needs to rise above it, and you'd be right, but at this point, we know who he is; emotion is a big part of his game.

And Reneau should not have fouled out at all.  2-3 of the fouls on him were such terrible, terrible calls.

If just those two things aren't perpetrated by the refs, I think this is a single digit loss, and everyone's tune is much different.

The only things that I found really disappointing today are:

- Rebounding

- Mgbako- just not even any effort at all, terrible shots, completely lost on defense.  If you took away his recruiting ranking, everyone would be wondering why he played AT ALL

- The lack of fight after Reneau fouled out - we folded like a cheap suit

Catching up on this thread, but this post speaks well to my thoughts on the game. For all the perfectly true and applicable things said about this team's issues, we still hung within striking distance of a top five team away from Assembly Hall. It took a lot of hero ball, and when that night's hero fouled out we had nothing left. But there's talent on this team. Woodson has the fight of his life to bring it together into something.

The roster construction stinks. We desperately need Mgbako to be a scoring wing to make these pieces fit, and right now he's giving us nothing, not even as a stretch four. The Anthony Walker addition continues to make no sense, he's Woodson's Jake Forrester. Give CJ Gunn all his minutes and hope the soph turns into something. I don't think anybody knows their role on this team, except perhaps Ware and Reneau. Perhaps not unrelated that they've been our most consistent performers.

My concern with Woodson has always been that these are not NBA players. I'm a total basketball outsider, so this is not based on any experience whatsoever, but my hypothesis goes something like this: In the NBA, my guess is most players can do a little bit of everything. Every player is differently skilled, sure, but they've all made it to the highest level of the sport. The core competencies are there. College players are still learning the game. They may have one thing they do really well, and they need to be set up to maximize that skill.

It's great if you can recruit a roster of athletic, switchable, NBA types, as we've been trying to do. How do you coach your team when you don't get those players? I think too often guys are being left to figure it out. That can work when you have two NBA talents who can pick and roll all day long, like Trayce and Jalen. But maybe it means you never shoot the three, because you expect guys to find their shot without ever running anything to get them a good look. College players need to be placed in position to succeed. They need to have a role, and they need to have a structure that maximizes their skills. This is what makes Painter such a good college coach. I think Woodson could get there; He's a sharp guy with a world of experience, even if mostly at a different level. I guess now we wait and see.

Again, I'm a basketball neophyte, and this is only my far off perspective as a fan. But from that POV it feels as good an explanation as any for what I've seen on the court.

[JJack]

Indiana is a really young team.  At any given time they have 3 and sometimes 4 players on the floor that are under the age of 20.  The lack of anyone having any confidence shooting the ball is an obvious concern and has been for the last 6-7 seasons outside of Kopp.     However, there is obvious talent.  I don't see any of them leaving early at this point.  Personally, I think Ware will be around for a while.  Let it grow into something. 

[KoB2011]

30 minutes ago, Maedhros said:

Catching up on this thread, but this post speaks well to my thoughts on the game. For all the perfectly true and applicable things said about this team's issues, we still hung within striking distance of a top five team away from Assembly Hall.

This is the point I struggle with. I totally get how bad the refs were, I really do, but I don't get the "striking distance of a top five team" thing.

We basically trailed wire to wire, much of that was around ten points before it ultimately ballooned to 20. We never made a serious run and cut the lead to one or two possession. If we beat Illinois or Purdue like that in the past and they tried to justify it as being a close game we'd have laughed in their face, and rightfully so. In fact, I remember actually laughing to a Purdue fans face last year after the first game when he tried to justify they would win the second game because of what he saw in the first game.

 

[jefftheref]

1 hour ago, BGleas said:

Great post! Something that really frustrated me in the game thread is that we had Reneau going on the block and Ware had hit two 3's, yet we were still going with both in the paint together or Ware diving to the rim when Reneau would get it. 

Why not have Ware spot up to keep Clingan out of the paint and then have Galloway slash to the rim?

Also agree with your point about our bigs lack of passing. I know Reneau has been racking up assists but part of that is his usage and several of those assists are big-to-big. 

But for the most part, our bigs are only kicking it out if absolutely necessary. It's a last resort. Yesterday, Reneau couldn't care less that UConn was sending double or triple teams, it was going up. 

I get that Reneau and Ware are scoring, so there is a bit of a weird complaint, but this team isn't going anywhere if it's 'dump it down and stand' and just hope our bigs outscore the other team from the paint. 

Not saying it all has to be 3's, but we need to get Galloway and XJ space. We need to figure out how to get MM involved offensively, etc., etc. 

Our offense is one option and hope it works. We have no other offensive fallback plan. 

Coaching or lack there of!

[Maedhros]

2 minutes ago, KoB2011 said:

This is the point I struggle with. I totally get how bad the refs were, I really do, but I don't get the "striking distance of a top five team" thing.

We basically trailed wire to wire, much of that was around ten points before it ultimately ballooned to 20. We never made a serious run and cut the lead to one or two possession. If we beat Illinois or Purdue like that in the past and they tried to justify it as being a close game we'd have laughed in their face, and rightfully so. In fact, I remember actually laughing to a Purdue fans face last year after the first game when he tried to justify they would win the second game because of what he saw in the first game.

 

Everyone's mileage will vary, but for me, on more than one occassion UConn would push the lead out to 14 or so and we would go on a run to cut it back down to 7. Never got much closer than that, and not down to one or two possessions, but it would've taken just one more run of the type we've already had to tie things up. That's striking distance. We just never had that last push, and then ran entirely out of gas in the last quarter or so.

[IU Scott]

Just now, Maedhros said:

Everyone's mileage will vary, but for me, on more than one occassion UConn would push the lead out to 14 or so and we would go on a run to cut it back down to 7. Never got much closer than that, and not down to one or two possessions, but it would've taken just one more run of the type we've already had to tie things up. That's striking distance. We just never had that last push, and then ran entirely out of gas in the last quarter or so.

For me where the game turned was when we were down 50-43. Gunn got a steal but X turned it over and UCONN got a layup and a foul. They missed the free throw but got the rebound and scored.

[BGleas]

1 minute ago, IU Scott said:

For me where the game turned was when we were down 50-43. Gunn got a steal but X turned it over and UCONN got a layup and a foul. They missed the free throw but got the rebound and scored.

Yeah, that was the big turning point. We lost our momentum and then once Reneau fouled out it was over. 

[IUFLA]

6 minutes ago, IU Scott said:

For me where the game turned was when we were down 50-43. Gunn got a steal but X turned it over and UCONN got a layup and a foul. They missed the free throw but got the rebound and scored.

Woody said the same thing in his post game