IU Scott Posted August 1, 2023 Report Share Posted August 1, 2023 Just now, rico said: To me I am giving JT his walking papers. Why? He is our best player and only playmaker on offense. It is idiotic to get rid of JT Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rico Posted August 1, 2023 Author Report Share Posted August 1, 2023 2 minutes ago, IU Scott said: Why? He is our best player and only playmaker on offense. It is idiotic to get rid of JT Oh well. I don't want him on my team anymore. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dgambill Posted August 1, 2023 Report Share Posted August 1, 2023 (edited) 5 hours ago, KoB2011 said: I think the Colts are willing to negotiate in good faith, it’s the JT camp that isn’t doing that right now. He is injured and coming off of a bad year, in a new system. He needs to get healthy and perform, not demand a contract based on something he did two years ago that we don’t know he can replicate. The only unreasonable, bad faith side currently is the JT side. He didn’t have a bad year lasr year. He avg 4.5 yards per carry…he had an ankle injury that he tried to rush back from and help the colts…which he shouldn’t have done…because clearly the Colts didn’t value what he was trying to do for the team and reward a guy that was putting his body in harms way to try and help them win as they weren’t willing to give him a raise or an extension. If you aren’t going to sign him long term then perhaps you could offered a raise this year out of good will. Different thing about JT is he never got a the big rookie deal say Barkley got for being a first rd pick. His priority is to secure that second contract. Clearly JT was keeping his mouth shut and saying all the right things as he has said he would play out his contract knowing it would all work out but as it is now ending after this year and he is getting no assurances or even conversations about a new contract he has chosen to change the tactic. Won’t win him any fans but he is playing for his livelihood and that can’t be his priority. I hope we compromise and work it out but seems this has gotten really negative so hard to see that happening now. Edited August 1, 2023 by dgambill Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KoB2011 Posted August 1, 2023 Report Share Posted August 1, 2023 6 minutes ago, dgambill said: He didn’t have a bad year lasr year. He avg 4.5 yards per carry…he had an ankle injury that he tried to rush back from and help the colts…which he shouldn’t have done…because clearly the Colts didn’t value what he was trying to do for the team and reward a guy that was putting his body in harms way to try and help them win as they weren’t willing to give him a raise or an extension. If you aren’t going to sign him long term then perhaps you could offered a raise this year out of good will. Clearly JT was keeping his mouth shut and saying all the right things as he has said he would play out his contract knowing it would all work out but as it is now ending after this year and he is getting no assurances or even conversations about a new contract he has chosen to change the tactic. Won’t win him any fans but he is playing for his livelihood and that can’t be his priority. I hope we compromise and work it out but seems this has gotten really negative so hard to see that happening now. lol what did Zach Moss average? The Colts have been very clear they aren’t giving anyone an extension until they seem them under the new coach. It’s an incredibly reasonable position - what JT is doing is not reasonable. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rico Posted August 1, 2023 Author Report Share Posted August 1, 2023 Trade JT to the Cardinals. He would be a good fit there with Kyler. 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dgambill Posted August 1, 2023 Report Share Posted August 1, 2023 5 minutes ago, KoB2011 said: lol what did Zach Moss average? The Colts have been very clear they aren’t giving anyone an extension until they seem them under the new coach. It’s an incredibly reasonable position - what JT is doing is not reasonable. 4.8 on limited carries. Taylor still almost had his 3rd 1000 yard season. He played hurt most of the season. It was the only thing that’s slowed him down. Since the second half of his rookie season he has arguably been the best running back I the game. Maybe I see him differently. Demand a trade is unreasonable? Not to me. I see guys do it all the time. Can’t say if I’m in his position I wouldn’t also do it…but can’t say I would without being in the room for the conversations. I can understand his frustrations especially given he has an undermarket contract given his ability. He has outperformed his contract and yet the Colts appear ready to pay him the minimum they can get away with this year and then next still not give him a long term deal just franchise him likely. You’re basically just telling him to shove it. You get what we say and like it. You don’t deserve to be paid like one of the best backs in the league despite being one…just because we drafted you in the second rd. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dgambill Posted August 1, 2023 Report Share Posted August 1, 2023 20 minutes ago, rico said: Trade JT to the Cardinals. He would be a good fit there with Kyler. He would be a good fit anywhere. He’s really good. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BGleas Posted August 1, 2023 Report Share Posted August 1, 2023 1 hour ago, dgambill said: 4.8 on limited carries. Taylor still almost had his 3rd 1000 yard season. He played hurt most of the season. It was the only thing that’s slowed him down. Since the second half of his rookie season he has arguably been the best running back I the game. Maybe I see him differently. Demand a trade is unreasonable? Not to me. I see guys do it all the time. Can’t say if I’m in his position I wouldn’t also do it…but can’t say I would without being in the room for the conversations. I can understand his frustrations especially given he has an undermarket contract given his ability. He has outperformed his contract and yet the Colts appear ready to pay him the minimum they can get away with this year and then next still not give him a long term deal just franchise him likely. You’re basically just telling him to shove it. You get what we say and like it. You don’t deserve to be paid like one of the best backs in the league despite being one…just because we drafted you in the second rd. I think the big disconnect between many of us and your stance is the bolded. Would I take the top running back in the game on my team? Of course. If the Titans or Colts wanted to give the Eagles Henry and Taylor would I want them on my roster? Of course. With that said, I don't want a top 5 paid running back on my roster. I would absolutely pass on acquiring Henry or Taylor if it came with a top 5, long term running back contract. I don't need my team to have the top running back in the league. To be good and to win Super Bowls you need running back depth. You don't need the best running back, and if you're paying for the best running back then you're probably not great because you'll probably be lacking in other, more important positions. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IU Scott Posted August 1, 2023 Report Share Posted August 1, 2023 32 minutes ago, BGleas said: I think the big disconnect between many of us and your stance is the bolded. Would I take the top running back in the game on my team? Of course. If the Titans or Colts wanted to give the Eagles Henry and Taylor would I want them on my roster? Of course. With that said, I don't want a top 5 paid running back on my roster. I would absolutely pass on acquiring Henry or Taylor if it came with a top 5, long term running back contract. I don't need my team to have the top running back in the league. To be good and to win Super Bowls you need running back depth. You don't need the best running back, and if you're paying for the best running back then you're probably not great because you'll probably be lacking in other, more important positions. Don't get that thinking at all, why wouldn't you want a top 5 RB. That salary is only 12-13 Mil a year. What I don't want is paying a WR lime Putman 20+ Mil a year. He is at best a WR2 and that is to much money for someone who isn't a top WR. I would rather pay more for a player is actually one of the best at their position. Just because KC doesn't need a top RB doesn't mean everyone should try the same thing. If you don't have a to QB and WR then if you have a top RB you keep him. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seeking6 Posted August 1, 2023 Report Share Posted August 1, 2023 4 hours ago, NotIThatLives said: I don't think think anyone is talking about receivers pay. Anyways. Cook and Elliott aren't even on the list or on a roster yet. 3 and 37 seems to be about the rate. And the doggone franchise tag is only 10.091. Here's the top 10 highest paid this year 1. 49ers RB Christian McCaffrey: $16 million 2. Saints RB Alvin Kamara: $15 million 3. Titans RB Derrick Henry: $12.5 million 4. Browns RB Nick Chubb: $12.2 million 5. Packers RB Aaron Jones: $11.5 million 6. Giants RB Saquon Barkley $10.1 million 6. Cowboys RB Tony Pollard: $10.1 million 6. Raiders RB Josh Jacobs: $10.1 million 9. Cardinals RB James: $7 million 10. Panthers RB Miles Sanders: $6.4 million I guess I haven't looked at the specific salaries of RB's yet. What I notice on this list is this. 49ers, Giants, and Cowboys are the only teams on that list that will likely be in the playoffs (mostly because of the NFC). So one could say 70% of the teams who pay the most for RB's won't be in the playoffs. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steubenhoosier Posted August 2, 2023 Report Share Posted August 2, 2023 Sorry, can’t copy this on my phone. Per PFF, in the 2020 season- most recently evaluated, the WAR of the running back was second lowest of all position players, only better than the center. Can’t believe the numbers have changed in the last two years. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BGleas Posted August 2, 2023 Report Share Posted August 2, 2023 1 hour ago, IU Scott said: Don't get that thinking at all, why wouldn't you want a top 5 RB. That salary is only 12-13 Mil a year. What I don't want is paying a WR lime Putman 20+ Mil a year. He is at best a WR2 and that is to much money for someone who isn't a top WR. I would rather pay more for a player is actually one of the best at their position. Just because KC doesn't need a top RB doesn't mean everyone should try the same thing. If you don't have a to QB and WR then if you have a top RB you keep him. You've brought this Kansas City thing up a few times and not sure where it's coming from. The Patriots never had top running backs or paid their backs. The Eagles don't pay their backs. The Packers haven't paid their backs. The Steelers rarely pay their backs. This isn't some new Kansas City thing. I clearly said I would want a top 5 back, though I'm not paying top 5 money for it. You don't need a top 5 back to win, you need running back depth. It's just not an important position anymore. You don't need one feature back, you need 2-3 that can all do different things. It's also a short shelf-lide position so you should tie up money for long contracts on that position. I'd rather invest my big money in the positions that win. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NotIThatLives Posted August 2, 2023 Report Share Posted August 2, 2023 2 hours ago, IU Scott said: Don't get that thinking at all, why wouldn't you want a top 5 RB. That salary is only 12-13 Mil a year. What I don't want is paying a WR lime Putman 20+ Mil a year. He is at best a WR2 and that is to much money for someone who isn't a top WR. I would rather pay more for a player is actually one of the best at their position. Just because KC doesn't need a top RB doesn't mean everyone should try the same thing. If you don't have a to QB and WR then if you have a top RB you keep him. Because you're not thinking like a GM Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dgambill Posted August 2, 2023 Report Share Posted August 2, 2023 3 hours ago, BGleas said: I think the big disconnect between many of us and your stance is the bolded. Would I take the top running back in the game on my team? Of course. If the Titans or Colts wanted to give the Eagles Henry and Taylor would I want them on my roster? Of course. With that said, I don't want a top 5 paid running back on my roster. I would absolutely pass on acquiring Henry or Taylor if it came with a top 5, long term running back contract. I don't need my team to have the top running back in the league. To be good and to win Super Bowls you need running back depth. You don't need the best running back, and if you're paying for the best running back then you're probably not great because you'll probably be lacking in other, more important positions. He the last 6 games of his rookie season he avg 124 yds per game, 8 tds, 6.2 yds per carry. Then in 2021 he led the nfl in rushing and was far and away the best running back in the nfl. Hard to say he wasn’t one of the best backs in the league the last 3 years given he still was productive last year dispite playing on a bum ankle all year. Again we don’t have the Eagles roster…I’m not sure we have a single position better than theirs…so of course they don’t need to invest highly in a rb. That’s like saying the Celtics don’t need to spend on a center like Embiid or Ayton etc…well sure they happen to be loaded at guard and hsce the two best wings in the nba (all nba caliber). However if you are the pacers and devoid of talent you don’t have the luxury of being picky with acquiring talent or re-signing your talent. You can’t afford to turn away an all-nba talent just because it isn’t at the position you would prefer. We can turn talent away but then we would have none. We have no one worth paying…why not pay our best player? If not well then we will have no all pro talent. Yeah that seems like a better option. There are no absolutes in life. In a vacuum we all would prefer to not have our best player be a rb and have a roster loaded with guys more deserving to be paid…well that isn’t our reality. Wish it was. We are a mediocre team at best…and that is with Taylor…hate to see what we will be without him. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dgambill Posted August 2, 2023 Report Share Posted August 2, 2023 (edited) 2 hours ago, Seeking6 said: I guess I haven't looked at the specific salaries of RB's yet. What I notice on this list is this. 49ers, Giants, and Cowboys are the only teams on that list that will likely be in the playoffs (mostly because of the NFC). So one could say 70% of the teams who pay the most for RB's won't be in the playoffs. Maybe this would help. Everyone agrees you need a top qb to be dangerous in the playoffs…however if you don’t have a great qb…what should you do. Build a good defense and have an elite running game….hmm like perhaps how the Titans won our division the last several years, how Giants made the playoffs and won their playoff game and how 49ers have constantly been dangerous. The Eagles also had an elite running game last year…but they did it with an mvp caliber qb also running the ball plus one of the best offensive lines in the league…since we have neither of those to replicate that running attack maybe a top tier back would help us. Edited August 2, 2023 by dgambill Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steubenhoosier Posted August 2, 2023 Report Share Posted August 2, 2023 1 hour ago, dgambill said: He the last 6 games of his rookie season he avg 124 yds per game, 8 tds, 6.2 yds per carry. Then in 2021 he led the nfl in rushing and was far and away the best running back in the nfl. Hard to say he wasn’t one of the best backs in the league the last 3 years given he still was productive last year dispite playing on a bum ankle all year. Again we don’t have the Eagles roster…I’m not sure we have a single position better than theirs…so of course they don’t need to invest highly in a rb. That’s like saying the Celtics don’t need to spend on a center like Embiid or Ayton etc…well sure they happen to be loaded at guard and hsce the two best wings in the nba (all nba caliber). However if you are the pacers and devoid of talent you don’t have the luxury of being picky with acquiring talent or re-signing your talent. You can’t afford to turn away an all-nba talent just because it isn’t at the position you would prefer. We can turn talent away but then we would have none. We have no one worth paying…why not pay our best player? If not well then we will have no all pro talent. Yeah that seems like a better option. There are no absolutes in life. In a vacuum we all would prefer to not have our best player be a rb and have a roster loaded with guys more deserving to be paid…well that isn’t our reality. Wish it was. We are a mediocre team at best…and that is with Taylor…hate to see what we will be without him. You continue to ignore the fact that in the last 6 years he has carried the ball, and absorbed hits, almost 2,000 times. Doesn’t matter who you are, but that amount of punishment is going to take a toll. Don’t think that Ballard doesn’t realize this as well. Do you really believe that the Colts should pay top dollar for a guy who plays a position that is replaceable , who has taken the hits, and who’s most recent physical history is that his body is showing the effects? You ever decide to trade in a car when your old one is starting to show signs of aging? Kind of the same thing. Why plow top dollar into something or someone who is starting to show signs of decline? 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IU Scott Posted August 2, 2023 Report Share Posted August 2, 2023 3 minutes ago, Steubenhoosier said: You continue to ignore the fact that in the last 6 years he has carried the ball, and absorbed hits, almost 2,000 times. Doesn’t matter who you are, but that amount of punishment is going to take a toll. Don’t think that Ballard doesn’t realize this as well. Do you really believe that the Colts should pay top dollar for a guy who plays a position that is replaceable , who has taken the hits, and who’s most recent physical history is that his body is showing the effects? You ever decide to trade in a car when your old one is starting to show signs of aging? Kind of the same thing. Why plow top dollar into something or someone who is starting to show signs of decline? I haven't seen JT showing signs of aging. He is only 24 and still has 3-4 years of great playing ahead of him. The thing is if he was just an average running back O would agree with you but he is a top 3 running back. He is one of the very few RB who had game changing speeds and can score anywhere on the field. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rico Posted August 2, 2023 Author Report Share Posted August 2, 2023 7 hours ago, IU Scott said: I haven't seen JT showing signs of aging. He is only 24 and still has 3-4 years of great playing ahead of him. The thing is if he was just an average running back O would agree with you but he is a top 3 running back. He is one of the very few RB who had game changing speeds and can score anywhere on the field. I see plenty of signs that JT is a whiner. Why doesn't he honor his contract? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rico Posted August 2, 2023 Author Report Share Posted August 2, 2023 Currently, the Indianapolis Colts are a good (or, well, bad) example. Their best players in a vacuum are running back Jonathan Taylor, linebacker Shaq Leonard, guard Quenton Nelson, and defensive tackle DeForest Buckner. They are all unquestionably good players, but the Colts haven't been able to win consistently because of their problems at more valuable positions, such as quarterback, left tackle, and edge defender. https://cheeseheadtv.com/blog/does-positional-value-matter-in-the-nfl-126 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boiler Sam Posted August 2, 2023 Report Share Posted August 2, 2023 23 hours ago, dgambill said: So who out there would you spend that 19 million on? That Patriot team was loaded and had difficult decisions to make on who to pay and keep and who to move on from. The Colts have no such problem. They have a ton of young guys at the more expensive positions….and have one of the most expensive lines in the league. Yet they have plenty of cap space. They have the money. He is arguably their best player..yet you don’t want to pay him. While running backs are undervalued, running the ball is not. It’s still VERY important to winning football. Do you try to build your team around a running back, no. But do you just toss one of the best in the game aside when you have no quality replacement and he is your only big play threat? I won’t want to draft one in the first rd. I don’t want to go into free agency spending a bunch on one…but if I have one..and he is my best player and my roster is set the way ours is with a young qb and I have no one else to pay…I’ll pay him and keep him. The option is do nothing with that cap space or pay your best player. Front load it…be creative. You don’t have to lock up your future to take care of your players. IT would be a huge statement in a league where teams are undervaluing their rb if you are creative and find a way to pay a deserving player. The Giants figured it out because they knew they weren’t going anywhere without Barkley…same applies for Colts. I don’t disagree with your overall premise, but the colts could roll over cap space to 2024, or use it on MPJ. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boiler Sam Posted August 2, 2023 Report Share Posted August 2, 2023 8 hours ago, IU Scott said: I haven't seen JT showing signs of aging. He is only 24 and still has 3-4 years of great playing ahead of him. The thing is if he was just an average running back O would agree with you but he is a top 3 running back. He is one of the very few RB who had game changing speeds and can score anywhere on the field. Zeke didn’t show signs of aging at 24 either… but he did at 26. Both had huge workloads between the ages of 18-24. Derrick Henry did not. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IU Scott Posted August 2, 2023 Report Share Posted August 2, 2023 32 minutes ago, Boiler Sam said: Zeke didn’t show signs of aging at 24 either… but he did at 26. Both had huge workloads between the ages of 18-24. Derrick Henry did not. That is why you give him a 3 year contract that will end at age 27 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IU Scott Posted August 2, 2023 Report Share Posted August 2, 2023 2 hours ago, rico said: I see plenty of signs that JT is a whiner. Why doesn't he honor his contract? How has he not honored his contract. He reported to training camp but team out him on the PUP list. This means he can't practice but he has shown up to every practice Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boiler Sam Posted August 2, 2023 Report Share Posted August 2, 2023 4 minutes ago, IU Scott said: That is why you give him a 3 year contract that will end at age 27 I wouldn’t guarantee JT any money past 2024. Which his knucklehead agent will throw a tantrum over. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KoB2011 Posted August 2, 2023 Report Share Posted August 2, 2023 This is a great take on the JT situation: 3 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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