It’s time... Fire Archie Miller

[HoosierJax]

[BobSaccamanno]

1 hour ago, cybergates said:

2012 violations are the only ones I've heard of. Too many calls/text (sound familiar?). Owned up to it and took the penalty (not even a violation anymore as we well know) and hasn't had an issue since TMK.

https://wacotrib.com/news/baylor-gets-3-years-probation-ncaa-accepts-other-self-imposed-penalties/article_e150b3c5-9710-5ae4-bf63-2455f5b50451.html

Drew was cited for failure to monitor the men’s program, which was related to his failure to inform Baylor’s administration of a potential violation and insufficient oversight of two assistant coaches’ recruitment activities, according to the NCAA’s report.

“As head coach, I take full responsibility for these mistakes and am disappointed that we have failed to uphold both the NCAA’s and Baylor’s expectations of documenting phone calls and recruiting communications,” Drew said in a statement. “Our program has taken steps to correct these mistakes, and we are grateful that the NCAA has accepted those actions.”

 

Just my opinion, but the deportation thing isn’t minor.  It’s not just petty and vindictive.  It gives you a clear view of his character.  That’s the real issue.  If he came here and got into hot water, the narrative would be to look at how obvious this was going to be.  The admin would open themselves up to extra scrutiny.  I don’t think anyone takes that risk. 

[KoB2011]

23 minutes ago, BobSaccamanno said:

Just my opinion, but the deportation thing isn’t minor.  It’s not just petty and vindictive.  It gives you a clear view of his character.  That’s the real issue.  If he came here and got into hot water, the narrative would be to look at how obvious this was going to be.  The admin would open themselves up to extra scrutiny.  I don’t think anyone takes that risk. 

Yeah - the deportation thing is just a hard one to look past. 

[cybergates]

21 minutes ago, BobSaccamanno said:

Just my opinion, but the deportation thing isn’t minor.  It’s not just petty and vindictive.  It gives you a clear view of his character.  That’s the real issue.  If he came here and got into hot water, the narrative would be to look at how obvious this was going to be.  The admin would open themselves up to extra scrutiny.  I don’t think anyone takes that risk. 

No its not minor, but where have you read that it was Drew that did it? I know around here we all latched onto it b/c we were in a recruiting battle for HP with them and thought it was scummy certainly, but research shows that it was asst. coach Mark Morefield, who also was the one who caused the violation for too many calls/text. I won't argue if you want to take the position that Morefield was just doing what Drew wanted him to, because I can't prove that one way or the other, but technically it wasn't Drew according to sources.

https://www.slamonline.com/college-hs/report-baylor-coach-threatened-to-deport-recruit/

https://www.nytimes.com/2010/10/14/sports/ncaabasketball/14baylor.html

The FoxSports.com article included a copy of a text message that was sent from the Baylor assistant Mark Morefield to Huss, saying that Baylor had the power to deport Perea if he did not go to Baylor.

“I guarantee you if he does [commit to another school] he will be in Colombia for the spring and summer and next year. Don’t forget it,” the text message said.

[BobSaccamanno]

14 minutes ago, cybergates said:

No its not minor, but where have you read that it was Drew that did it? I know around here we all latched onto it b/c we were in a recruiting battle for HP with them and thought it was scummy certainly, but research shows that it was asst. coach Mark Morefield, who also was the one who caused the violation for too many calls/text. I won't argue if you want to take the position that Morefield was just doing what Drew wanted him to, because I can't prove that one way or the other, but technically it wasn't Drew according to sources.

https://www.slamonline.com/college-hs/report-baylor-coach-threatened-to-deport-recruit/

https://www.nytimes.com/2010/10/14/sports/ncaabasketball/14baylor.html

The FoxSports.com article included a copy of a text message that was sent from the Baylor assistant Mark Morefield to Huss, saying that Baylor had the power to deport Perea if he did not go to Baylor.

“I guarantee you if he does [commit to another school] he will be in Colombia for the spring and summer and next year. Don’t forget it,” the text message said.

Thanks for the info.  I didn’t remember all the details.  To me, when you’re the head coach, you’re responsible for all of what the staff does.  Either you directed it or created an atmosphere and culture where someone thought this was a good idea, or you hired a low life.  That’s how I’d see it if I were in a position to hire a coach.  

Also, something this big reeks of being run by the head man.  My feeling is that head coaches are very smart to keep their fingerprints off the dirty stuff for plausible deniability.   

Regardless, I respect your viewpoint and appreciate the info. I feel like we are aligned more often than not.   Maybe I’d see it your way if I had the chance to talk to Drew.  But I feel a sleaze factor with him.  

[HoosierFaithful]

While I agree all that happens under a head coach is their responsibility, I don’t think that necessarily means a bad action happening under a coach makes them a bad person. If a HC hires an over zealous assistant who breaks the rules, the HC is rightfully responsible, but they’re guilty of potentially lack of oversight, not criminality. It’s a crude analogy, but I hope the point is clear. 
 

I do think the point about a HC knowing everything is probably true, though, which renders my entire post somewhat meaningless. 

[13th&Jackson]

14 minutes ago, cybergates said:

No its not minor, but where have you read that it was Drew that did it? I know around here we all latched onto it b/c we were in a recruiting battle for HP with them and thought it was scummy certainly, but research shows that it was asst. coach Mark Morefield, who also was the one who caused the violation for too many calls/text. I won't argue if you want to take the position that Morefield was just doing what Drew wanted him to, because I can't prove that one way or the other, but technically it wasn't Drew according to sources.

https://www.slamonline.com/college-hs/report-baylor-coach-threatened-to-deport-recruit/

https://www.nytimes.com/2010/10/14/sports/ncaabasketball/14baylor.html

The FoxSports.com article included a copy of a text message that was sent from the Baylor assistant Mark Morefield to Huss, saying that Baylor had the power to deport Perea if he did not go to Baylor.

“I guarantee you if he does [commit to another school] he will be in Colombia for the spring and summer and next year. Don’t forget it,” the text message said.

In hindsight, Morefield had the right idea 

[IU Scott]

11 hours ago, Cbp4IU said:

Gotta hire the right coach this time around. I mean IU is overdue for an Excelling coach again. Please, please get the next hire right. If you fire Archie you gotta get it right. Personally, if this off season a coach you want is available you have to pull the trigger. If not then don’t. If next off-season nothing of an upgrade is available don’t feel the need to pull the trigger. Rather get it right then just hiring another dud. I don’t like Archie like most but. IU needs to get this next hire right. I don’t know whom that coach may be but bring us back to the glory days. Shoot, even get us to the NCAA tourney too! Please, please, please!!!

To me if a change is made the best we could get is either Thad Matta or John Belien.  I have not see enough of Oats to know if he can win big at a power school yet.  I also don't agree with how he runs his offense with all 3's or layups.  I would check into Beard at TT but have read where he really doesn't want to leave Texas.  Also he has proven he can win big at TT so why leave to come here knowing after 4 years you will be fired if not winning enough.

[dbmhoosier]

The way I see it we have 2 options.   We can continue to suck or we can roll the dice on Pearl, Marshall, or Drew.  Stevens isn't coming and our clueless administration would never pay the money to get a guy like Beard.

[cybergates]

5 minutes ago, BobSaccamanno said:

Thanks for the info.  I didn’t remember all the details.  To me, when you’re the head coach, you’re responsible for all of what the staff does.  Either you directed it or created an atmosphere and culture where someone thought this was a good idea, or you hired a low life.  That’s how I’d see it if I were in a position to hire a coach.  

Also, something this big reeks of being run by the head man.  My feeling is that head coaches are very smart to keep their fingerprints off the dirty stiff for plausible deniability.   

Regardless, I respect your viewpoint and appreciate the info. I feel like we are aligned more often than not.   Maybe I’d see it your way if I had the chance to talk to Drew.  But I feel a sleaze factor with him.  

Agreed on the oversight/responsibility 100%. My beliefs about Cal, K, Self, etc knowing what their "fall guys" are doing to "cheat" can't be contradicted by thinking Drew, Archie, etc. aren't aware of what assistants are doing.

I had that thought about Drew due to my misbelief that he threatened to deport HP and hearing that he's sleazy from others since then, but when I started looking into it since he seems to be a legit coach with ties to the state of IN I was surprised I couldn't find anything besides it was the assistant which he took responsibility and a couple game suspension for. 

I wouldn't be surprised if any NCAA coach was sleazy at this point.

[IU Scott]

3 hours ago, IUCrazy2 said:

I am not talking about fan expectations with why I as a mid major would think long and hard about being here, I am not convinced the administration of the school wants to win...or at least let me do the things that you need to do to win these days.  They will hire me, set expectations of Championships in the hiring press conference and then entrenched people within the school will dick me over.   Gotta de-emphasize those athletics donchaknow.

And really another up and comer is the same risk.  You start the 4 to 5 year cycle all over again.  I am just becoming more convinced that the people who run the school have squeezed the life out of the program with 20 years of bad decisions and that the program is screwed unless we stumble across another needle in a haystack.  That is a bunch of churning of coaches every 5 years until we find our guy.  I am 42.  Knight was fired when I was 21.  The school wasted half of my life to date hiring Davis, Sampson, Crean, and Miller.  The most fun I get out of the program anymore is talking on these boards.  If not for the online community, I think I would have completely checked out by now.  I do not have much time for sports as it is and this just sucks.  Another mid major hire is just a crap shoot.  I don't think anyone making the hire knows a damn thing about what it takes to win and so we get things that are theater.  Glass was all theater around the program.  Dolson I have zero faith in.

We are going to get Alford or another guy like Miller.  Bank on it.

If they want to de-emphasize sports then why have they put so much money into facilities and coaches salaries.  Also why is the football, baseball, and women's basketball programs doing so well if the de-emphasize sports.

I agree with you that this job is not viewed like it use to and the fans has a lot to do with it.  I think the fans can be an asset but the last few years it is a hindrance as well.  If i were a top coach like Beard or Bennett why leave you secure job to come here and get fired in 4 years if you aren't winning enough.

[BobSaccamanno]

24 minutes ago, IU Scott said:

To me if a change is made the best we could get is either Thad Matta or John Belien.  I have not see enough of Oats to know if he can win big at a power school yet.  I also don't agree with how he runs his offense with all 3's or layups.  I would check into Beard at TT but have read where he really doesn't want to leave Texas.  Also he has proven he can win big at TT so why leave to come here knowing after 4 years you will be fired if not winning enough.

I think Matta can do really well here.  He’s in Indy now (his daughter is there) and many personal contacts with the state having lived here before.  He recruited Indiana well for OSU so he’s connected with high school ball in the state too.  He’s a young man (early 50s) and hopefully rejuvenated.  I saw an interview with him from a couple of years ago where he seemed to covet a comeback.  I think he’d jump at the chance to go to IU.  

But there are others.  You seem quick to dismiss Oats but he’s been successful and his system is hellacious to deal with.  Beilein could potentially get us on track and help get us on the proper course even if we have to replace him in five years. Lon Kruger sounds boring but he’d have a similar profile as Beilein.  Eric Musselman has an outstanding resume including NBA stops where he was a head man and an assistant for some great minds including Chuck Daly.  Beard may be from Texas but IU is on a different stratosphere from living in West Texas which is a true outpost.  It’s way out in the middle of nowhere.   Maybe he’s like Mark Few, but I’d expect him to say he wants to stay there.  You put a contract with a $6 million handle on it and he may change his tune.  But he’d have no reason to ever say that publicly so I’d put that in the unknown category.  Nick Saban infamously used to say “I will NOT be the Alabama coach.”  You never know on Beard but you’d have to write a large check.  

These guys aren’t going to be scared off by a coach being removed within 4-5 years. Kentucky and UNC moved faster than that. Texas football just did it. Any guy of the type mentioned above will be confident in their approach and what they can offer in terms of success.  

[BGleas]

6 minutes ago, IU Scott said:

To me if a change is made the best we could get is either Thad Matta or John Belien.  I have not see enough of Oats to know if he can win big at a power school yet.  I also don't agree with how he runs his offense with all 3's or layups.  I would check into Beard at TT but have read where he really doesn't want to leave Texas.  Also he has proven he can win big at TT so why leave to come here knowing after 4 years you will be fired if not winning enough.

Agree. You make the customary calls to the guys we all know aren't coming (Stevens, Wright, Beard, Bennett), but after that you operate in the world of guys that have been there and done that at the Power 5 level. 

Proven guys that can reestablish some consistency. 

Matta, Beilein, Rick Barnes, Drew, Pearl, Musselman, etc.

Before everyone chimes in with reasons each of those particular guys doesn't work, I'm just giving examples. But, these guys are out there. Some may be happy where they are, some might not want back into coaching, but others might be attracted to being at a basketball-first school for the first time. 

Take Barnes for example, he has a good thing going at Tennessee, but his two primary stops (Texas & Tenn) have both been football schools. 

Maybe the allure of one last shot at a true basketball school would entice him?

Regardless, you get the point. IU needs someone that has been there and done it at a Power 5 school, not a mid-major getting his first shot. 

[IU Scott]

2 hours ago, Hippopotamo said:

Realistically, I don’t see a scenario where CAM gets fired this season, but next year is absolutely his make or break year. If IU isn’t comfortably in the tournament next year I think they’ll move on. Then, the question becomes who do you hire? Oats and Musselman kind of make sense, and I could hear an argument for Scott Drew as well, but I’m concerned that a coaching change will turn into another rebuild. I’d almost rather keep Archie and at least hopes he stabilizes this roster than try to hit a home run again and potentially strike out. Right now IU doesn’t need to be too 10. They just need to be relevant in the big ten and in the country. But IU basketball is in a pretty tough spot right now and it’s definitely easy to be frustrated. 

I don't see why Drew would leave Baylor for us because he has proven he can win big there.  It took him years to build his program at Baylor and got it to where they are championship contenders.

[IUCrazy2]

3 minutes ago, IU Scott said:

If they want to de-emphasize sports then why have they put so much money into facilities and coaches salaries.  Also why is the football, baseball, and women's basketball programs doing so well if the de-emphasize sports.

I agree with you that this job is not viewed like it use to and the fans has a lot to do with it.  I think the fans can be an asset but the last few years it is a hindrance as well.  If i were a top coach like Beard or Bennett why leave you secure job to come here and get fired in 4 years if you aren't winning enough.

They want a program they can control and they don't want a program to become "bigger" than the University again.  So you get theater about being the best.  They give you the pageantry and they throw money out there to keep the right alumni happy, but this school is not concerned about winning championships.  They care about winning just enough to keep the donations rolling in.  And the BTN money makes it much easier for them to be less worried about that as well.

I will again disagree on the fans.  I don't think coaches give a rat's behind about the fans.  Fans are happy if you win.  What coaches are concerned about is "can I win here?"  Back in 2002 you could answer that with a resounding YES.  I absolutely can win there.  It is one of the Top programs in the country.  Now?  The things that you look at from the outside and say, "they should be better..." leads you to question what institutional flaws keep them from being so.

The only thing currently special about this program is the fans.  Look at our record.  Pull that fan support away and you are NC State or Iowa.  A mediocre program that catches lightning in a bottle every now and again.

[IU Scott]

7 minutes ago, BGleas said:

Agree. You make the customary calls to the guys we all know aren't coming (Stevens, Wright, Beard, Bennett), but after that you operate in the world of guys that have been there and done that at the Power 5 level. 

Proven guys that can reestablish some consistency. 

Matta, Beilein, Rick Barnes, Drew, Pearl, Musselman, etc.

Before everyone chimes in with reasons each of those particular guys doesn't work, I'm just giving examples. But, these guys are out there. Some may be happy where they are, some might not want back into coaching, but others might be attracted to being at a basketball-first school for the first time. 

Take Barnes for example, he has a good thing going at Tennessee, but his two primary stops (Texas & Tenn) have both been football schools. 

Maybe the allure of one last shot at a true basketball school would entice him?

Regardless, you get the point. IU needs someone that has been there and done it at a Power 5 school, not a mid-major getting his first shot. 

Barnes is a good coach but his offense last night only scored 50 and they haven't played well of late.

[BGleas]

1 minute ago, IU Scott said:

Barnes is a good coach but his offense last night only scored 50 and they haven't played well of late.

The post wasn't meant to debate each guys viability, more to make the general point that IU needs a stabilizing force and someone with demonstrated experience at this level. I was just listing examples. 

As far as Barnes specifically, that is one game and I didn't watch it so can't really comment, but he has had Tennessee consistently back in the top 25 and well positioned. We all know his resume from Texas. 

[13th&Jackson]

19 minutes ago, BobSaccamanno said:

I think Matta can do really well here.  He’s in Indy now (his daughter is there) and many personal contacts with the state having lived here before.  He recruited Indiana well for OSU so he’s connected with high school ball in the state too.  He’s a young man (early 50s) and hopefully rejuvenated.  I saw an interview with him from a couple of years ago where he seemed to covet a comeback.  I think he’d jump at the chance to go to IU.  

 

Just don't believe Thad would take the IU job immediately after a CAM firing. He and Archie are too close.

[Parakeet Jones]

26 minutes ago, BGleas said:

 

Maybe the allure of one last shot at a true basketball school would entice him?

Regardless, you get the point. IU needs someone that has been there and done it at a Power 5 school, not a mid-major getting his first shot. 

Barnes almost took the UCLA job so maybe. 

[tdhoosier]

I think there's an important distinction between the coaches mentioned above, timing and money.

The way I see it.....

IF we have a change this off-season (which is not likely) we will need a bird in the hand. I'm not sure of the ethics behind it, but unofficial negotiations need to be made behind closed doors BEFORE Archie is fired. And the bird would have to be a bald freaking eagle. A name so big that the concern of buyouts and contracts go out the window because donors are ponying up the cash. Just throwing this our there as an example, but a name like Mussleman or Barnes (his contract at TN is yuge, FYI), although good coaches, are not going to be that eagle. Guys of this caliber will be around the following year when the buyout is less. Financially it just doesn't make sense to reach for these 'tier 2' guys after this season.

Tier 1 - Dream guys that'd warrant a coaching change (and buyout) after this season:
Stevens
Few
Wright
Bennet
Donovan (Coaching for the Bulls could possibly make you never want to coach in the NBA again....haha)
(TBH, I'm not sure even Beard makes this list)

Tier 2 - 2022 candidates
Everybody else.....

Conclusion, none of those tier 1 guys were coming 4 years ago so they're not going to come now. And let's face it, IU would be a step down for all those guys. Looks like we have another season of CAM. 

[BobSaccamanno]

Even if Stevens were interested, and I’m not thinking that way, the timing with the NBA schedule is a mess.  Boston is a contender so you wouldn’t make a move in April which is the hot season.  He’s not going to quit in April, no way, no how.  Boston is way too good for that kind of thing.   You’d have to watch him resign from Boston in say July or August and then either pounce then at an off peak time, or let him float until April of next year and then get him. If that happened, the frenzy around his name would be unprecedented.   We’d have the advantage that perhaps he and his wife want to be back near family and friends in the comfort of their home state.  It’s well known that NBA coaches other than Pop do tend to have a shelf life so you never know but the timing is a major complication. 

[dbmhoosier]

3 minutes ago, BobSaccamanno said:

Even if Stevens were interested, and I’m not thinking that way, the timing with the NBA schedule is a mess.  Boston is a contender so you wouldn’t make a move in April which is the hot season.  He’s not going to quit in April, no way, no how.  Boston is way too good for that kind of thing.   You’d have to watch him resign from Boston in say July or August and then either pounce then at an off peak time, or let him float until April of next year and then get him.  NBA coaches other than Pop do tend to have a shelf life so you never know but the timing is a mess.  

OSU fired Matta in June and that's worked out pretty well for them.  But Stevens isn't gonna happen.  It would take Coach K money to even get his interest. 

[Hoosierdave]

Serious question, if someone started a go fund me to cover Archie’s buyout, would the university accept the “donation”? We have one of the largest alumni bases in the entire country and some people with deep pockets.

I don’t think anyone really believes in CAM at this stage and if money wasn’t the main issue, I don’t think anyone would support keeping him around another year. 

Dolsons gonna be pulling his hair out seeing a completely empty assembly hall next year. Not to mention, just like with Crean’s players, I can totally see everyone sticking around if we hired another coach.

[BobSaccamanno]

1 minute ago, dbmhoosier said:

OSU fired Matta in June and that's worked out pretty well for them.  But Stevens isn't gonna happen.  It would take Coach K money to even get his interest. 

Yeah, you’re going to need probably an $8 or $9 million handle. Triple Archie kind of thing.  But Alabama football, after slogging away fruitlesly through the likes of Mike Shula, did what they needed to do and it more than pays for itself if you are forward thinking.   

[FWIUFan]

Just 1 minority IUBB Fan's opinion of where we are:

I prefer to deal in reality as I currently see it. CAM is our coach thru next season.  His buyout precludes his being fired till then.  I haven't a clue what Dolson will or won't do after that.  None of us know yet how this team will finish the upcoming Feb games or if we'll make the post season tournament. This team has been within FT's of winning all but the Texas loss. CAM has put together a team that CAN beat anyone but due to youth and some execution issues like poor FT shooting and  3pt shooting CAN also lose to anyone because the scores have been so close at the end. 

I am not a CAM apologist.  However, I consider CBK the best BB coach of my lifetime and was never known for pumping sunshine, and he said that IU had hired a good coach but didn't know if the fans would be patient enough to keep him.  I am happy to yield to his analysis.  

I like the players on this team.  They seem to have good character and unless Hunter has done something not yet reported are representing IU well. I still see slow steady progress in this team, especially the FR.  What is killing more rapid progress is the failure of the upperclassmen.  RP and AL.  It's as simple as that.  They are too inconsistent to propel this team forward hence the inconsistency in outcomes for games.  

The comebacks against UI last night and against IA occurred when the FR were playing as a unit.  The team definitely seems to have more energy and life when they are playing.  They passed the ball well, there was good movement on O and the D was mostly acceptable.  I'm not ignoring that Lander's D lapses were in my mind the determine sequence for the loss last night.  I think the positives with him going forward outweigh the negatives.  He will learn and grow from his mistakes.

It's time to give Lander the keys to the car effective immediately.  He is the PG we've been missing and of our future.  He simply is a better athlete and BB player than AL and RP.  He also seems to be gaining significant confidence in his game while RP sadly seems to have lost his.  I much preferred watching the O when Lander, Geronimo, Thompson, Franklin, and TJD were on the court.  I haven's a clue why they didn't start the 2nd half of last nights game because they had earned it.  

Last, I think CAM is still learning how to coach in the BIG.  He is also still in his learning curve.  Hopefully, Kenya helps on the  recruiting front.  Hopefully, he has the ability to self reflect and possible change his decision making process and not seem to so doggedly stand by certain lineups.  T

There's still time to change but will it?  If not and he's replaced by whom?  For now, I would rather stick with what we have until someone else who is a slam dunk comes along.