Coach Mike Woodson Megathread

[Sagamore]

7 minutes ago, KoB2011 said:

Not offering any of my own comments, but here is a good number of stats for IU, MSU, and Wisconsin dating back to Gards first year. You can all draw your own conclusions about the programs, down years, up years, etc.

 

 

This years team not good at anything....

[NCHoosier32]

1 hour ago, 13th&Jackson said:

Posted this previously, but it's worth repeating. This is Youngstown State's approach to bringing in 7 transfers:

“It’s very similar to last year,” YSU coach Jerrod Calhoun said. “We had some specific needs. Obviously this year was a little bigger class. The biggest thing I looked for in the portal was for guys that have won. We certainly have done that. … We’ve got a lot of guys that are used to winning. We wanted to get old, and we’ve got one of the oldest rosters in college basketball.”

for sure a great point.  a lot of kids are desensitized to losing.  they all play year around and so many games that they don't care as much as they used to care.  

[NCHoosier32]

1 hour ago, IU Scott said:

Seth Greenberg was on a local radio show yesterday and was talking about IU and Woodson.  He feels these NBA guys who go to college coaching just don't understand the time commitment that comes with coaching in college. Just saying that the college game is so different and the maturity of the college players are do different. He also think that the college coaches who tries the NBA struggles not understanding the pro game

 

this is what i feared the moment the hire was announced.  

[Indy1987]

1 hour ago, btownqb said:

Winning is winning. You don't just forget how to do it. Malik, McNeely, Galloway, Cupps. 

Buuuuuut--- just make sure your two portal guard additions are about the exact opposite of XJ, in many ways, and fit the mold of the Ytown St coach and we're fine. 

100%.  Problem is will the staff prioritize guards this time around? Or will they ignore what we all saw last year that was needed? 

Go Hoosiers!!!

[BGleas]

1 hour ago, IU Scott said:

Seth Greenberg was on a local radio show yesterday and was talking about IU and Woodson.  He feels these NBA guys who go to college coaching just don't understand the time commitment that comes with coaching in college. Just saying that the college game is so different and the maturity of the college players are do different. He also think that the college coaches who tries the NBA struggles not understanding the pro game

 

Something I would love to see happen and IU be at the forefront on is creating a more NBA style front office. 

That doesn't mean I want us recruiting all one and done's or anything like that. 

But, the college landscape has changed so much with NIL, the transfer portal, etc.  It's almost too much for any coach to effectively manage and also coach their team. 

I'd love to see IU create a General Manager position and then have a Head Coach/President of BBall Ops. So, the GM is a position that is above Recruiting Coordinator and much more experienced in roster construction but still reports into the head coach. 

The GM oversees a team that is in charge of recruiting and identifying the players (high school and portal) that the program should be going after. 

This should be a former coach who managed recruiting in the past, is more experienced than the Recruiting Coordinator, but maybe just doesn't want the coaching grind anymore or something like that. 

So the head coach is still ultimately in charge and has final say, but the GM is running the recruiting function day-to-day and reporting to the coach. The GM is watching in-season tape for transfer targets and attending high school games in-season and making the target list for the head coach. 

Not saying for IU necessarily, but think someone like a Tom Crean is a role like that. 

[tdhoosier]

2 hours ago, Steubenhoosier said:

Of course, Purdue and Wisconsin have coaches who have been in their positions considerably longer than 2 1/2 years to develop their cultures and know what kind of players fit 

 

1 hour ago, IUFLA said:

But even then they have down years...

Look at Wisconsin last year...

Get an AJ Storr, a healthy Tyler Wahl, and tell Chuckie Hepburn he doesn't have to score, just run the team, and they're back... 

I don't think anybody is saying that a program can't have a down year. But in the case of Wiscy or Purdue or MSU, if they have a down year, it's a pretty safe bet to say that year is an anomaly and not a trend. They have their identities and know what they need to make their program successful. 

On the other side of the coin, it's not fair to say our current down year is a trend, but you also can't say it's an anomaly. The truth is: we don't know because we really don't see an identity that we can build upon. The reason for most of our pessimism is this uncertainty.

That's why in my point above, I ponder if the argument about player personnel is short sided. We don't have a consistent and successful system, and without that, how can the staff identify the players that they need???? That is the difference between our down year vs. Wiscy, MSU, PU, etc. Arguably, a down year for the latter teams is that the issue is solely personnel. Our issues go a lot deeper than personnel: it's a lack of college coaching experience. We don't have proven system/identity to fall back upon.

And while the coaches for the programs mentioned above have had many years to develop their systems/identities, they were also long time assistants in big programs. All 3 of them carried over the culture that they learned under. 

The question I ask myself is how long Woody should get to become successful? What is fair? In my mind, it's definitely more than 3 years. BUT if it takes him 5 years, how much longer will he be coaching after that? Will he retire in year 7 and we are back at square one? I think that's why many fans like myself are in an 'irrational' rush to see success. 

As a program, we're not really in a great position long-term. We're between a rock and a hard place. And as I Monday morning QB, I can't help but think the hire was really short-sided. How fair was it to assume Woody would adapt to the college game so quickly? 

Edited January 30 by tdhoosier

[13th&Jackson]

13 minutes ago, BGleas said:

Something I would love to see happen and IU be at the forefront on is creating a more NBA style front office. 

That doesn't mean I want us recruiting all one and done's or anything like that. 

But, the college landscape has changed so much with NIL, the transfer portal, etc.  It's almost too much for any coach to effectively manage and also coach their team. 

I'd love to see IU create a General Manager position and then have a Head Coach/President of BBall Ops. So, the GM is a position that is above Recruiting Coordinator and much more experienced in roster construction but still reports into the head coach. 

The GM oversees a team that is in charge of recruiting and identifying the players (high school and portal) that the program should be going after. 

This should be a former coach who managed recruiting in the past, is more experienced than the Recruiting Coordinator, but maybe just doesn't want the coaching grind anymore or something like that. 

So the head coach is still ultimately in charge and has final say, but the GM is running the recruiting function day-to-day and reporting to the coach. The GM is watching in-season tape for transfer targets and attending high school games in-season and making the target list for the head coach. 

Not saying for IU necessarily, but think someone like a Tom Crean is a role like that. 

They somewhat started down that path with Matta, but that only lasted one year. Woodson had told Dolson he wanted a relationship like he had with Grunwald in NY, but Dolson recognized he couldn't just be GM for basketball. 

 

[IUCrazy2]

3 hours ago, tdhoosier said:

Maybe take the Cignetti approach. Who cares what they are rated. Get guys in the portal that play during the crucial minutes in a game and demonstrate the ability to execute the role you need to fill. If those guys are ranked high, great. If those guys aren’t ranked high, but you believe in them, also great. 

But I think the challenge for any staff is being confident enough in your system to clearly define the roles that need to be filled, and then identifying those guys to fill them.

Purdue and Wisconsin know what they need, it’s why they have been successful. I think Woody is still trying to figure out his system and the personnel he needs to make it work. It looks to me like there has been a lot of trial and error going on these last 2.5 years.

This is not so much a criticism of CMW, but an example of an inexperienced college coach trying to figure out what schemes work in CBB and the caliber of athlete he needs in terms of athleticism, fundamentals, basketball IQ, etc.

Thus, he’s not only trying to figure out which pegs fit in the holes, he’s still trying to figure out what shape the holes need to be.

Our issues are two-fold when it comes to personnel. 

All of that reads to me like a big WTH were they thinking hiring a 62 year old coach for his first college coaching gig.  Like those should have been interview type of questions.

To me you hire a 62 year old NBA guy to win now, not learn on the job.

[IUCrazy2]

Sigh....

I mean if that means moving him to PF then glad you finally woke up to the idea but....

 

[FWIUFan]

44 minutes ago, BGleas said:

Something I would love to see happen and IU be at the forefront on is creating a more NBA style front office. 

That doesn't mean I want us recruiting all one and done's or anything like that. 

But, the college landscape has changed so much with NIL, the transfer portal, etc.  It's almost too much for any coach to effectively manage and also coach their team. 

I'd love to see IU create a General Manager position and then have a Head Coach/President of BBall Ops. So, the GM is a position that is above Recruiting Coordinator and much more experienced in roster construction but still reports into the head coach. 

The GM oversees a team that is in charge of recruiting and identifying the players (high school and portal) that the program should be going after. 

This should be a former coach who managed recruiting in the past, is more experienced than the Recruiting Coordinator, but maybe just doesn't want the coaching grind anymore or something like that. 

So the head coach is still ultimately in charge and has final say, but the GM is running the recruiting function day-to-day and reporting to the coach. The GM is watching in-season tape for transfer targets and attending high school games in-season and making the target list for the head coach. 

Not saying for IU necessarily, but think someone like a Tom Crean is a role like that. 

This is exactly the type of thinking I thought was ongoing when we first heard of CMW's hire along with Mata and Fife.  Unfortunately, we see how that has panned out.  I am still not convinced CMW is the right guy.  Dolson needs to have a serious discussion with CMW at the end of this year.  If CMW doesn't recognize and show a convincing plan for the future, it's time to cut bait.  I agree it's a terrible position for IU either way.

 

[Proud2BAHoosier]

3 hours ago, NotIThatLives said:

Watched Houston out tough Texas at Texas in ot last night.  I'd say Houston has everything they need to make a final four or better run.  Top three scorers are guards.  Their 'big' guys are like modern NBA dudes.  Just strong atheltic guys, didn't see one attempt of back to basket stuff.  I looked up their recruiting rankings over the last 4 years.  One 5 star.  Hit the transfer portal very nicely 2 and 3 years ago being rated 3rd and 4th transfer classes.  

Gee.... And who is the coach again??

Anyone we know??  🤷‍♂️

[rico]

1 hour ago, BGleas said:

Something I would love to see happen and IU be at the forefront on is creating a more NBA style front office. 

That doesn't mean I want us recruiting all one and done's or anything like that. 

But, the college landscape has changed so much with NIL, the transfer portal, etc.  It's almost too much for any coach to effectively manage and also coach their team. 

I'd love to see IU create a General Manager position and then have a Head Coach/President of BBall Ops. So, the GM is a position that is above Recruiting Coordinator and much more experienced in roster construction but still reports into the head coach. 

The GM oversees a team that is in charge of recruiting and identifying the players (high school and portal) that the program should be going after. 

This should be a former coach who managed recruiting in the past, is more experienced than the Recruiting Coordinator, but maybe just doesn't want the coaching grind anymore or something like that. 

So the head coach is still ultimately in charge and has final say, but the GM is running the recruiting function day-to-day and reporting to the coach. The GM is watching in-season tape for transfer targets and attending high school games in-season and making the target list for the head coach. 

Not saying for IU necessarily, but think someone like a Tom Crean is a role like that. 

I volunteer my services to be a scout.  I always wanted to be one.  

[KoB2011]

52 minutes ago, Proud2BAHoosier said:

Gee.... And who is the coach again??

Anyone we know??  🤷‍♂️

I may regret asking this…

I know we all probably agree the failed classes were a huge problem. Were the players failing classes prior to Sampson being fired at anything close to the same rate? Or was it a situation were they stopped caring once he got fired?

Also, I’m curious from anyone who actually knows how different the disciplinary issues were with that team as opposed to what we’ve seen with our past three coaches? 

[IU Scott]

1 hour ago, BGleas said:

Something I would love to see happen and IU be at the forefront on is creating a more NBA style front office. 

That doesn't mean I want us recruiting all one and done's or anything like that. 

But, the college landscape has changed so much with NIL, the transfer portal, etc.  It's almost too much for any coach to effectively manage and also coach their team. 

I'd love to see IU create a General Manager position and then have a Head Coach/President of BBall Ops. So, the GM is a position that is above Recruiting Coordinator and much more experienced in roster construction but still reports into the head coach. 

The GM oversees a team that is in charge of recruiting and identifying the players (high school and portal) that the program should be going after. 

This should be a former coach who managed recruiting in the past, is more experienced than the Recruiting Coordinator, but maybe just doesn't want the coaching grind anymore or something like that. 

So the head coach is still ultimately in charge and has final say, but the GM is running the recruiting function day-to-day and reporting to the coach. The GM is watching in-season tape for transfer targets and attending high school games in-season and making the target list for the head coach. 

Not saying for IU necessarily, but think someone like a Tom Crean is a role like that. 

They do this in football.

The only thing is that we hear where recruits want to talk to the HC and want them to feel wanted by the HC and not assistants

[BankShot]

What I find so very disappointing and infuriating and just largely unacceptable, is that virtually everything that is being discussed right now as things that need to be done and addressed as we move forward, are things that were already known and needed to be done a year ago (or more).

Improved outside shooting, better guards/guard play, rebounding, better fundamentals (free throws, blocking out, etc.), better implementation of a modern college offense, better three point defense, etc.

ALL of this was already known but has not been adequately addressed. This is why I now have such a tremendously reduced confidence in this staff. It's like we've lost a year (or more), gotten worse, and there have not been signs of making the right changes or adjustments.

I just don't trust these guys to do what is needed.

 

[tdhoosier]

3 minutes ago, KoB2011 said:

I may regret asking this…

I know we all probably agree the failed classes were a huge problem. Were the players failing classes prior to Sampson being fired at anything close to the same rate? Or was it a situation were they stopped caring once he got fired?

Also, I’m curious from anyone who actually knows how different the disciplinary issues were with that team as opposed to what we’ve seen with our past three coaches? 

Good question.

As fans, we like to give the benefit of the doubt to people who are still on our side, and make enemies and/or scapegoats to those who aren't. 

No doubt there were problems with Sampson's players and maybe those issues stemmed from the crappy situation they found themselves in. I don't know. But there were also player issues post-Sampson. 

[BGleas]

2 hours ago, IU Scott said:

They do this in football.

The only thing is that we hear where recruits want to talk to the HC and want them to feel wanted by the HC and not assistants

I wasn't saying the HC wouldn't be involved in recruiting. He'd still be in charge and have to participate and close. 

Use Mgbako for example. We've heard the staff say several times that they didn't really know anything about him until his mom reached out. 

The GM's job, and his staff, would be to already know everything about a player like that, even if we weren't actively recruiting him the first time. 

The GM's job would be to know that we should make Dalton Knecht a priority over Chris Ledlum. 

The GM is spending all of their time identifying the talent and fits based on program culture set by the HC, roster construction, and pouring over tape and attending games in-season to identify the right targets. 

The GM sets the table, the HC and staff still close. 

[ledies22]

10 minutes ago, tdhoosier said:

Good question.

As fans, we like to give the benefit of the doubt to people who are still on our side, and make enemies and/or scapegoats to those who aren't. 

No doubt there were problems with Sampson's players and maybe those issues stemmed from the crappy situation they found themselves in. I don't know. But there were also player issues post-Sampson. 

A couple of excerpts from an article. I'm not sure Sampson is a "scapegoat" here. Then you throw in the rumors on top of the actual reporting below.  

Multiple sources close to the team assert that marijuana use was common among a group of players, some of whom were made to take part in a drug counseling program set up by the athletic department. Despite a wealth of academic support, the team's collective grade-point average plummeted from 2.89 in the fall semester to 2.13 in the spring, when players were cutting classes.

According to Eric Gordon Sr., his son "didn't get involved in the smoking and partying" and, as a result, felt alienated from some of his teammates. Likewise senior co-captain D.J. White rarely spent time around his fellow players away from the court. "The kids weren't on the same page," says Gordon Sr. "They didn't have similar backgrounds or experiences or goals, and basically all hell broke loose."

 In hopes of mitigating a likely NCAA sanction and having the violations characterized as secondary rather than major, IU then took the preemptive step of forfeiting a basketball scholarship for the 2008-09 season. Sampson was deprived of a $500,000 raise but remained on the job

The NCAA outlined five major violations committed by Sampson and his staff. The NCAA did not take kindly to Sampson's alleged fabrications to the investigators nor to his status as a repeat offender.

Crean says, he showed up at an academic progress meeting and learned that team members were carrying a total of 19 F's.

After a May hearing in Seattle, the NCAA downgraded one of the five major charges to a secondary violation but alleged another major infraction against Indiana, the dreaded "failure to monitor" charge.

[btownqb]

5 hours ago, tdhoosier said:

Maybe take the Cignetti approach. Who cares what they are rated. Get guys in the portal that play during the crucial minutes in a game and demonstrate the ability to execute the role you need to fill. If those guys are ranked high, great. If those guys aren’t ranked high, but you believe in them, also great. 

But I think the challenge for any staff is being confident enough in your system to clearly define the roles that need to be filled, and then identifying those guys to fill them.

Purdue and Wisconsin know what they need, it’s why they have been successful. I think Woody is still trying to figure out his system and the personnel he needs to make it work. It looks to me like there has been a lot of trial and error going on these last 2.5 years.

This is not so much a criticism of CMW, but an example of an inexperienced college coach trying to figure out what schemes work in CBB and the caliber of athlete he needs in terms of athleticism, fundamentals, basketball IQ, etc.

Thus, he’s not only trying to figure out which pegs fit in the holes, he’s still trying to figure out what shape the holes need to be.

Our issues are two-fold when it comes to personnel. 

Also--- we had people not sure about Braden Smith

Thanks Archie 

[Bowhunter]

3 hours ago, NCHoosier32 said:

this is what i feared the moment the hire was announced.  

Me as well. 

[tdhoosier]

37 minutes ago, ledies22 said:

A couple of excerpts from an article. I'm not sure Sampson is a "scapegoat" here. Then you throw in the rumors on top of the actual reporting below.  

Multiple sources close to the team assert that marijuana use was common among a group of players, some of whom were made to take part in a drug counseling program set up by the athletic department. Despite a wealth of academic support, the team's collective grade-point average plummeted from 2.89 in the fall semester to 2.13 in the spring, when players were cutting classes.

According to Eric Gordon Sr., his son "didn't get involved in the smoking and partying" and, as a result, felt alienated from some of his teammates. Likewise senior co-captain D.J. White rarely spent time around his fellow players away from the court. "The kids weren't on the same page," says Gordon Sr. "They didn't have similar backgrounds or experiences or goals, and basically all hell broke loose."

 In hopes of mitigating a likely NCAA sanction and having the violations characterized as secondary rather than major, IU then took the preemptive step of forfeiting a basketball scholarship for the 2008-09 season. Sampson was deprived of a $500,000 raise but remained on the job

The NCAA outlined five major violations committed by Sampson and his staff. The NCAA did not take kindly to Sampson's alleged fabrications to the investigators nor to his status as a repeat offender.

Crean says, he showed up at an academic progress meeting and learned that team members were carrying a total of 19 F's.

After a May hearing in Seattle, the NCAA downgraded one of the five major charges to a secondary violation but alleged another major infraction against Indiana, the dreaded "failure to monitor" charge.

If Kelvin wasn't fired, would grades have plummeted? Would he be able to clean things up himself?  i guess we'll never know. The team GPA was at a 2.89 until he was fired - it looks like a revolt and an unraveling after. I'm not defending anybody or actions, just playing devil's advocate. 

That said, I know at least a few players on subsequent IU teams have been big weed smokers. One, I bet you totally could guess. lol

No doubt Sampson was dumb to get in trouble for the same exact thing again he did at Oklahoma - it inexcusable. It sucks that it's not even a rule now and we exploded our program because of it. All that said, has Sampson had any major issues at Houston? What i could find on google is that he suspended one player a game on 2021 for biting a Cincinnatti Bearcat - Sampson called the the UC coach to apologize. And then another player got suspended a game in 2017 for playing a game in a church rec league. Maybe I'm missing others. 

meanwhile, we've had a player who got hit by a car driven by his team-mates. A player refusing arrest outside Taco Bell. A player driving 90 down Walnut. Almost an entire team missing curfew in Evanston. All were pretty much forgiven by our fanbase and the blame was not put at the feet of their coaches. And while I have absolutely no evidence to support it, I'd bet money that guys on this team smoke weed and play video games. 

Are we being hypocritical? Again, I don't know. 

 

[BADGERVOL]

5 hours ago, BankShot said:

What I find so very disappointing and infuriating and just largely unacceptable, is that virtually everything that is being discussed right now as things that need to be done and addressed as we move forward, are things that were already known and needed to be done a year ago (or more).

Improved outside shooting, better guards/guard play, rebounding, better fundamentals (free throws, blocking out, etc.), better implementation of a modern college offense, better three point defense, etc.

ALL of this was already known but has not been adequately addressed. This is why I now have such a tremendously reduced confidence in this staff. It's like we've lost a year (or more), gotten worse, and there have not been signs of making the right changes or adjustments.

I just don't trust these guys to do what is needed.

 

This post needs to be framed and hung on the wall of my family room

[Steubenhoosier]

3 hours ago, tdhoosier said:

If Kelvin wasn't fired, would grades have plummeted? Would he be able to clean things up himself?  i guess we'll never know. The team GPA was at a 2.89 until he was fired - it looks like a revolt and an unraveling after. I'm not defending anybody or actions, just playing devil's advocate. 

That said, I know at least a few players on subsequent IU teams have been big weed smokers. One, I bet you totally could guess. lol

No doubt Sampson was dumb to get in trouble for the same exact thing again he did at Oklahoma - it inexcusable. It sucks that it's not even a rule now and we exploded our program because of it. All that said, has Sampson had any major issues at Houston? What i could find on google is that he suspended one player a game on 2021 for biting a Cincinnatti Bearcat - Sampson called the the UC coach to apologize. And then another player got suspended a game in 2017 for playing a game in a church rec league. Maybe I'm missing others. 

meanwhile, we've had a player who got hit by a car driven by his team-mates. A player refusing arrest outside Taco Bell. A player driving 90 down Walnut. Almost an entire team missing curfew in Evanston. All were pretty much forgiven by our fanbase and the blame was not put at the feet of their coaches. And while I have absolutely no evidence to support it, I'd bet money that guys on this team smoke weed and play video games. 

Are we being hypocritical? Again, I don't know. 

 

Other than a couple guys, the adjective I think of with his team is “thugs.” No other descriptor fits. They weren’t just smoking. Ellis for one was selling. 

He also had a guy who thought it would be a good idea to throw a potted plant at a coach.

The GPA figure you give was propped up by the few kids who were serious about their grades. There were a couple guys who had 0 GPAs.

IMO, no amount of wins could justify Sampson’s tolerance of zero character guys

[NCHoosier32]

i guess this topic will die down until the next road game?

[IUskim]

6 minutes ago, NCHoosier32 said:

i guess this topic will die down until the next road game?

Next loss.