Coach Mike Woodson Megathread

[13th&Jackson]

1 minute ago, tdhoosier said:

Add to it that May has created a name for himself and has a fun offense to play in. The transfer portal also now exists and IU has a lot of NIL opportunities. I'd like to think he could turn things around quicker at IU. 

Also, even May didn't know what he was walking into at FAU. I remember an interview when he said that he doesn't even show recruits the basketball court or locker rooms on their visits because the facilities are so bad. He just takes them to the ocean. haha. 

Yes, he had players on campus attending school asking where the locker room was. 

[HoosierDPU95]

3 minutes ago, IUJoe said:

I think you’re comparing apples to oranges.  Florida Atlantic and Indiana are not comparable in any way.  FAU was basically nothing when May took over.

 

3 minutes ago, Kdug said:

You’re omitting some major details. FAU’s record the 4 years before May:

14-15: 7-20

15-16: 7-24

16-17: 10-20

17-18: 12-19

Even May’s first 4 years were some of the better FAU seasons since they’ve been a D1 team.

So no IU fans would not be happy with those first 4 year results, but the situation at IU and the situation at FAU are not remotely comparable.

Again, I'm not trying to make an argument one way or the other. Nor am I arguing that Woodson should stay or go. Just wanting some discussion.

Some have framed this current IU season as the "worst in program history" (excluding the first 3 Crean years). Some have said the program is in a terrible state and spiraling in the wrong direction. With that, if a coaching change is made we will be (once again) in rebuild mode. So I feel there is valid comparison here.

[Kdug]

1 minute ago, HoosierDPU95 said:

 

Again, I'm not trying to make an argument one way or the other. Nor am I arguing that Woodson should stay or go. Just wanting some discussion.

Some have framed this current IU season as the "worst in program history" (excluding the first 3 Crean years). Some have said the program is in a terrible state and spiraling in the wrong direction. With that, if a coaching change is made we will be (once again) in rebuild mode. So I feel there is valid comparison here.

This is one of the worst years we’ve had in recent memory. But a rebuild at IU is completely different than at FAU, and a bad year at IU is very different than a bad year at FAU.

With his FAU rebuild, the 4 years before May got there they averaged around a 275 kenpom rating. May’s first 4 years they averaged around 150. That’s a massive immediate improvement, and those were objectively good years by FAU standards.

I don’t know enough about May to say he’d be good at IU or not, but I do know that he’s been impressive at FAU.

[02Hoosier]

19 minutes ago, btownqb said:

First of all, nothing wrong with the question... discussion point. 

He is 66% winning % at FAU and has won 118 games--- the 6 years prior to him being there, FAU had a winning % of 34%... they were 63-124.

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But again, and I said this the other day.... Archie Miller couldn't have been more qualified/had won a ton of games when IU hired him. 

Which is what scares me about going the mid-major route again. I'd love to swing for the fences and get a Pearl/Beard/Oats but the odds of that aren't great unfortunately it seems. Hard to find proven guys at the P6 level that are willing to leave their current job. Does IU have enough pull still to land a guy like that? We'll see within the next few years I guess... 

BTW, I do like the idea of hiring May, there would just be a few calls that I'd make before I go that route. 

[tdhoosier]

6 minutes ago, HoosierDPU95 said:

 

Again, I'm not trying to make an argument one way or the other. Nor am I arguing that Woodson should stay or go. Just wanting some discussion.

Some have framed this current IU season as the "worst in program history" (excluding the first 3 Crean years). Some have said the program is in a terrible state and spiraling in the wrong direction. With that, if a coaching change is made we will be (once again) in rebuild mode. So I feel there is valid comparison here.

For the sake of discussion, I think the framing of this season as such refers to on court play and results. 

For numerous reasons, the missing link has been the 'right' coach. The infrastructure behind the coach is there though. 

 

[HoosierDPU95]

8 minutes ago, Kdug said:

 But a rebuild at IU is completely different than at FAU, and a bad year at IU is very different than a bad year at FAU.

100% agree. IU has way better facilities, NIL, name recognition, etc. but this job comes with much higher expectations and pressure as well. So hypothetically, what would be an acceptable first 4 years if Woodson is replaced by May and there is a mass exodus of current players and McNeely opts out?

Edited February 12 by HoosierDPU95

[IUJoe]

12 minutes ago, HoosierDPU95 said:

 

Again, I'm not trying to make an argument one way or the other. Nor am I arguing that Woodson should stay or go. Just wanting some discussion.

Some have framed this current IU season as the "worst in program history" (excluding the first 3 Crean years). Some have said the program is in a terrible state and spiraling in the wrong direction. With that, if a coaching change is made we will be (once again) in rebuild mode. So I feel there is valid comparison here.

I think people framing this as the “worst season in program history” are pretty high on the hyperbole meter.  There’s little doubt we aren’t good, but there’s been plenty of worse seasons in my lifetime, and I only remember from the early 1970s.  Regardless, Indiana’s college basketball program is still one of the most valuable in the country according to Forbes.  Facilities, resources, recruiting base, alumni base…all still in place ready for the right coach to take advantage of.  I doubt FAU was in Forbes top 300 when May took the job there.

[Hoosierdave]

What concerns me the most about Woody is that everyone thought the biggest issue would be recruiting but he’s actually done quite well there (Ware, Mac, Fino, Reneau, Liam). Instead, the worst parts are his schemes and roster construction- things that you would assume he was brought here for due to his experience handling that at a higher level. 

I would feel better about the future if I knew for a fact Reneau and Liam were staying, Gallo was fine with being a 6th man if need be, and our staff was attacking the portal for guards. Also, adjusting our schemes to prioritize perimeter scoring and a balanced attack with speed and movement. 

I just struggle with having confidence in Woody that he can do that. We as fans have bitched and moaned for like 8+ years now about shooting and yet Archie, his leftover assistances (Hunter, Walsh) and Woody haven’t seen its importance until it’s been too late. Woody also talked about his former NBA teams and how much they shot beyond the arc and said we would do a 4 out 1 in once TJD left because we only played bully ball as a result of his skill set. Instead, we’re doing it just as frequently and we’re again getting exposed for our lack of balance and perimeter threats. 

I know some people say the fan base is toxic by asking for a new coach every 4 years or less. But it’s not the fans who decided to hire a mid major coach who made a couple deep tourney runs or a guy who has NBA coaching experience but none in college. If we had listened to the national media and allowed their opinions to form our decisions so we don’t look “toxic”, we would have ended up struggling with Archie for 2 more years and hired Alford afterward and been in a similar situation. 

Woody knew himself he was brought here as a short term hire and said he came here to “win championships”. To me, short term hires are made because of the confidence you have that someone can come in quickly and improve the situation. Not the case with Woody. Would have been interesting with Matta had he passed his physical. 

I would be more patient and understanding if we weren’t top 15-20 in game attendance, NIL donations, revenue, and social media presence. Objectively, we have way too many pieces for a coach to be successful. We’re also paying Woodson a top 10-15 salary. If it weren’t for us fans and our patience through all the ups and downs, we’d be a Georgetown/DePaul/Louisville. 

The only objective reason Woody should get another year is to reduce the amount of $ in his buyout so you can throw a Brad Stevens type offer for the next dream coach. If Woody and Dolson want to talk about how much they love this program, then they would honor that by having some self awareness and doing what we did with Allen and pull the plug before it gets even worse. 

[Kdug]

3 minutes ago, HoosierDPU95 said:

100% agree. IU has way better facilities, NIL, name recognition, etc. but this job come with much higher expectations and pressure as well. So hypothetically, what would be an acceptable first 4 years if Woodson is replaced by May and there is a mass exodus of current players and McNeely opts out?

With any new coach I think it’s important to show year over year improvement, and establish a culture/identity. I also don’t think there’d necessarily be a mass exodus, there wasn’t when Archie was fired - which is a credit to Woodson and the staff.

So for me, I’d be looking for more foundational type stuff like player development, recruiting, fundamentals, modern offensive/defensive systems, etc rather than immediate wins and losses. That’s part of the reason this season is so concerning to me - it seems like a lot of the foundational stuff is not good outside of recruiting.

[btownqb]

29 minutes ago, 02Hoosier said:

Which is what scares me about going the mid-major route again. I'd love to swing for the fences and get a Pearl/Beard/Oats but the odds of that aren't great unfortunately it seems. Hard to find proven guys at the P6 level that are willing to leave their current job. Does IU have enough pull still to land a guy like that? We'll see within the next few years I guess... 

BTW, I do like the idea of hiring May, there would just be a few calls that I'd make before I go that route. 

Those three you mentioned-- I don't believe Beard will be an option. I think Oates and Pearl would be morons to leave their current jobs for Indiana. 

[btownqb]

21 minutes ago, Hoosierdave said:

What concerns me the most about Woody is that everyone thought the biggest issue would be recruiting but he’s actually done quite well there (Ware, Mac, Fino, Reneau, Liam). Instead, the worst parts are his schemes and roster construction- things that you would assume he was brought here for due to his experience handling that at a higher level. 

I would feel better about the future if I knew for a fact Reneau and Liam were staying, Gallo was fine with being a 6th man if need be, and our staff was attacking the portal for guards. Also, adjusting our schemes to prioritize perimeter scoring and a balanced attack with speed and movement. 

I just struggle with having confidence in Woody that he can do that. We as fans have bitched and moaned for like 8+ years now about shooting and yet Archie, his leftover assistances (Hunter, Walsh) and Woody haven’t seen its importance until it’s been too late. Woody also talked about his former NBA teams and how much they shot beyond the arc and said we would do a 4 out 1 in once TJD left because we only played bully ball as a result of his skill set. Instead, we’re doing it just as frequently and we’re again getting exposed for our lack of balance and perimeter threats. 

I know some people say the fan base is toxic by asking for a new coach every 4 years or less. But it’s not the fans who decided to hire a mid major coach who made a couple deep tourney runs or a guy who has NBA coaching experience but none in college. If we had listened to the national media and allowed their opinions to form our decisions so we don’t look “toxic”, we would have ended up struggling with Archie for 2 more years and hired Alford afterward and been in a similar situation. 

Woody knew himself he was brought here as a short term hire and said he came here to “win championships”. To me, short term hires are made because of the confidence you have that someone can come in quickly and improve the situation. Not the case with Woody. Would have been interesting with Matta had he passed his physical. 

I would be more patient and understanding if we weren’t top 15-20 in game attendance, NIL donations, revenue, and social media presence. Objectively, we have way too many pieces for a coach to be successful. We’re also paying Woodson a top 10-15 salary. If it weren’t for us fans and our patience through all the ups and downs, we’d be a Georgetown/DePaul/Louisville. 

The only objective reason Woody should get another year is to reduce the amount of $ in his buyout so you can throw a Brad Stevens type offer for the next dream coach. If Woody and Dolson want to talk about how much they love this program, then they would honor that by having some self awareness and doing what we did with Allen and pull the plug before it gets even worse. 

Wanting TG to go to the bench, but wanting more movement, balance, and speed seems contradictory. But what do I know, I do remember A TON of posters wanting TG to start OVER Kopp two years ago. 

 

[tdhoosier]

3 minutes ago, Hoosierdave said:

I know some people say the fan base is toxic by asking for a new coach every 4 years or less. But it’s not the fans who decided to hire a mid major coach who made a couple deep tourney runs or a guy who has NBA coaching experience but none in college.

Great points overall.

The amount of years we should give a coach lacks so much context, IMO. The judgement is not a black or white opinion. 

A huge part of the opinion lies within the progression of the program. I think the criticism of Woody would be completely different if this team was competitive in losses and/or showed improvement throughout the season. I feel the need to say it again: it's not that we are losing it's how we are losing. 

Another part of the opinion lies within the age of Woody. I, by no means, am saying he is inept or senile. BUT the plan we were lead to believe is that he was going to turn it around, win championships (his words) and then leave the program in good hands (for his successor). This narrative naturally created an accelerated timeline for success because he only has so many years to do this. 

AND THEN another part of the opinion lies within the inability to win or be competitive in games with the talent on the roster. I had Purdue friends over for the Purdue game and they kept on saying: man, Ware is a great player. Malik is a force. Galloway is so crafty and plays hard. Mgbako has such a smooth shot. Etc. We have some great individual players on this roster, we just can't play as a team. I think we have the most 5 stars on one roster in the last 15-20 years. THIS TEAM HAS TALENT. Sure, we lack guards and the roster construction is shotty, but it is a huge red flag that we aren't even competitive against tournament caliber teams. It's honestly mind boggling. 

 

 

[Hoosierdave]

12 minutes ago, btownqb said:

Wanting TG to go to the bench, but wanting more movement, balance, and speed seems contradictory. But what do I know, I do remember A TON of posters wanting TG to start OVER Kopp two years ago. 

 

Not sure what Kopp has to do with any of this because next year is a completely different roster build lol but I don’t think it’s contradictory to want Gallo to be a 6th man so that we can upgrade our perimeter scoring, ball handling, athleticism, and basketball IQ via the portal. 

Rabby apparently said himself Gallo told the staff earlier this season he would be fine with assuming said 6th man role next year if we got some dudes around him.

Also, Chris on BTB said Mac’s family doesn’t want him returning or transferring this off-season , just moving on to play pro. So I personally don’t want to see us struggle again out on the perimeter if we have to watch bully ball with Queen/Reneau for season 4. 

[IUFLA]

8 minutes ago, tdhoosier said:

I had Purdue friends over for the Purdue game

You should have had them over last year...

And I'll point out that our starting 5 has 264 D1 games under their belts when we played Saturday...

Less than Edey and Jones combined...

[btownqb]

3 minutes ago, Hoosierdave said:

Not sure what Kopp has to do with any of this because next year is a completely different roster build lol but I don’t think it’s contradictory to want Gallo to be a 6th man so that we can upgrade our perimeter scoring, ball handling, athleticism, and basketball IQ via the portal. 

Rabby apparently said himself Gallo told the staff earlier this season he would be fine with assuming said 6th man role next year if we got some dudes around him.

Also, Chris on BTB said Mac’s family doesn’t want him returning or transferring this off-season , just moving on to play pro. So I personally don’t want to see us struggle again out on the perimeter if we have to watch bully ball with Queen/Reneau for season 4. 

I brought up that example because based on your post it seems we still don't understand his value. I find it very difficult to see that we will go into the portal and find better handlers, more athletic, and a better IQ than TG. I think we can find guys that are better shooters. We aren't auto-better by TG going to the bench. I think you can be just fine adding a portal PG, another combo guard off the bench, and maybe even another guard. 

I'd rather see Queen/Reneau play together than have to see Cupps, Gunn, Banks operate offensively. 

[IUProfessor]

1 hour ago, 02Hoosier said:

Which is what scares me about going the mid-major route again. I'd love to swing for the fences and get a Pearl/Beard/Oats but the odds of that aren't great unfortunately it seems. Hard to find proven guys at the P6 level that are willing to leave their current job. Does IU have enough pull still to land a guy like that? We'll see within the next few years I guess...

Tj Otzelberger 

[tdhoosier]

40 minutes ago, IUFLA said:

You should have had them over last year...

And I'll point out that our starting 5 has 264 D1 games under their belts when we played Saturday...

Less than Edey and Jones combined...

They were over last year. And this year they were like, we played really bad and still beat you by 20. It's pretty embarrassing, to be honest. 

Do we not have enough talent to be competitive in games against tournament caliber teams? Have we gotten any better as a team defensively or offensively this year? Have we played a full 40 minutes of good basketball this year? Whether they have experience or not, we should expect some improvement in these areas, no?

I am not forgetting last year, but to put the bigger picture into context, I do think we should fairly evaluate this year's failures. 

It'd be nice have a view into a parallel universe because the debate would be settled, but I think there are many coaches that could do better with this roster. 

Edited February 12 by tdhoosier

[Hoosierdave]

15 minutes ago, btownqb said:

I brought up that example because based on your post it seems we still don't understand his value. I find it very difficult to see that we will go into the portal and find better handlers, more athletic, and a better IQ than TG. I think we can find guys that are better shooters. We aren't auto-better by TG going to the bench. I think you can be just fine adding a portal PG, another combo guard off the bench, and maybe even another guard. 

I'd rather see Queen/Reneau play together than have to see Cupps, Gunn, Banks operate offensively. 

Understand and respect your opinion, I think it’s fair to say Gallo doesn’t get the love or credit he deserves. I just think we have one of the worst backcourts in conference and I think it’s rather clear we need upgrades. Also, a guy coming off the bench doesn’t automatically mean he’ll have a much smaller roll or impact than a starter. Just like Kentucky, you can bring big impact guys off the bench (Dillingham, Sheppard) because they bring that extra juice and energy you need. 

I think pretty much anyone would agree that Queen/Reneau is a better combo than relying on guys who barely see the floor and make little to no impact already lol. 

[btownqb]

8 minutes ago, Hoosierdave said:

Understand and respect your opinion, I think it’s fair to say Gallo doesn’t get the love or credit he deserves. I just think we have one of the worst backcourts in conference and I think it’s rather clear we need upgrades. Also, a guy coming off the bench doesn’t automatically mean he’ll have a much smaller roll or impact than a starter. Just like Kentucky, you can bring big impact guys off the bench (Dillingham, Sheppard) because they bring that extra juice and energy you need. 

I think pretty much anyone would agree that Queen/Reneau is a better combo than relying on guys who barely see the floor and make little to no impact already lol. 

Then just worry about getting players who fit. TG to the bench might happen, and might be good for our team, but it isn't a necessary auto move that has to happen for us to be successful next season/move. 

IMO--we want LESS offense having to run through TG, more than we want his mins lessened.. I don't think it matters a hill of beans whether he starts or not--- He isn't going to play less than 25mpg if he's here next year. 

Edited February 12 by btownqb

[IUFLA]

6 minutes ago, tdhoosier said:

They were over last year. And this year they were like, we played really bad and still beat you by 20. It's pretty embarrassing, to be honest. 

Do we not have enough talent to be competitive in games against tournament caliber teams? Have we gotten any better as a team defensively or offensively this year? Have we played a full 40 minutes of good basketball this year? Whether they have experience or not, we should expect some improvement in these areas, no?

I am not forgetting last year, but to put the bigger picture into context, I do think we should fairly evaluate this year's failures. 

It'd be nice have a view into a parallel universe because the debate would be settled, but I think there are many coaches that could do better with this roster. 

Yet there's this thread which essentially is saying we need to fire Mike Woodson over one year...one year...

You can't say it was entertained in the first year...we hadn't been to the tourney in 6 years, and Woody got us there...You can't say it's over the 2nd year, as we were a #4 seed and finished 2nd in the Big 10...

I'd really like to think y'all are reasonable, but that's not the word that comes to mind...

This conversation has basically turned at least this thread into Rupp Rafters North as far as I'm concerned...

And the names I hear...You think Bruce Pearl, Nate Oats, Chris Beard, or Eric Mussleman have never had a "down year"? Of course they have...

One year...

 

 

[Feathery]

I think the reality is he isn’t getting fired, so a more constructive conversation is how does the program get fixed for next year. Personally I think there needs to be some overspending on a PG and 2 wings. All 3 need to be 40%+ shooters from behind the 3pt line. And then need to replace what big production that leaves. But we need to transform the roster to one that plays with 3 guards and 2 bigs, or a PG 2 wings and 2 bigs, however you want to label it. But one of the bigs needs to be able to shoot well from 3 to speed the floor. 

[Bowhunter]

We will lose the Montverde pipeline. Lots of talent there every year. I guess if Woody has another bad year, we lose it anyway. With May I worry about recruiting. With Oats, Beard, or Pearl, I do not. 

[ledies22]

8 minutes ago, Feathery said:

I think the reality is he isn’t getting fired, so a more constructive conversation is how does the program get fixed for next year. Personally I think there needs to be some overspending on a PG and 2 wings. All 3 need to be 40%+ shooters from behind the 3pt line. And then need to replace what big production that leaves. But we need to transform the roster to one that plays with 3 guards and 2 bigs, or a PG 2 wings and 2 bigs, however you want to label it. But one of the bigs needs to be able to shoot well from 3 to speed the floor. 

Maybe its a misconception or maybe its unreasonable, but out of the +/-5,000 D1 college kids only 41 shoot 40% or above. Not sure what the minimum attempts are, but all of these kids average more than 5 attempts/game.

[btownqb]

4 minutes ago, ledies22 said:

Maybe its a misconception or maybe its unreasonable, but out of the +/-5,000 D1 college kids only 41 shoot 40% or above. Not sure what the minimum attempts are, but all of these kids average more than 5 attempts/game.

Yeah and we are picking up three of them in the portal, in one offseason? DOUBT IT. 

We don't have to shoot 40% from 3 to be good at shooting 3s. It simply just 1. needs to be more a part of our system 2. "Shooting the 3"  (for lack of a better term) more a part of our starting PGs repertoire. 

You cannot pair XJ/Cupps/TG all together. TF were we thinking? 

Edited February 12 by btownqb

[BobSaccamanno]

May did go to one final four and was very competitive there.   I saw his team beat Arizona this year.  They run a good style of ball on both ends.  No comparison to Archie.  Bless his heart but Archie doesn’t have the horsepower schematically or with adjustments etc.  May runs a form of motion and uses Knight principles on D too.  It’s far more pleasurable to watch than what we do.  Let’s see what May does this March.  But after watching them beat Arizona, I doubt anyone wants to see them then.