ledies22 Posted February 12 Report Share Posted February 12 2 minutes ago, btownqb said: Yeah and we are picking up three of them in the portal, in one offseason? DOUBT IT. Some people are just to focused on 3pt shooting they forget about every other aspect. Yes we need 3pt shooting. But i'd much rather have a well rounded kid that shoots 33%, than someone that sits on the arc and shoots almost 40% Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
southsidehoosier Posted February 12 Report Share Posted February 12 (edited) Edited February 12 by southsidehoosier Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BobSaccamanno Posted February 12 Report Share Posted February 12 Just now, ledies22 said: Some people are just to focused on 3pt shooting they forget about every other aspect. Yes we need 3pt shooting. But i'd much rather have a well rounded kid that shoots 33%, than someone that sits on the arc and shoots almost 40% Defense for sure is a huge issue. Motor, defense, smarts (along with shooting). I made a comment some time back in another thread that 35% in college is like 40% in the pros. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BobSaccamanno Posted February 12 Report Share Posted February 12 Also it’s not shooting percentage alone. It’s volume. That’s the real issue. Lot of guys can make threes if they wait until they are wide open and have as much time as they want to get it off. It’s an entirely different thing to be Steve Alford. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BobSaccamanno Posted February 12 Report Share Posted February 12 There’s nothing in IU’s history that tells you that they’d make a play for Beard, Oats or Pearl. Quinn may have brought us Woody and Dolson tried to put in guardrails with Matta and Fife. But Woody was the guy who made Dolson fly to him for the interview and Fife and Matta didn’t take. That’s the picture that formed. When I was a kid my grandmother had two dogs, a big muscular one and a tiny one. The little one had a temper and acted like it was going to go berserk every time another dog would come by. The big dog stayed calm. The little dog knew the big dog was there for him. Woody has had Quinn. But Quinn’s character can never be questioned. He’d never treat IU like his personal playground for a buddy. It’s way bigger than one person and he knows it. I think he will know when it’s right. But will they switch to going after a flamboyant guy like Pearl or a guy like Beard? I will believe it when I see it. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tdhoosier Posted February 12 Report Share Posted February 12 44 minutes ago, IUFLA said: Yet there's this thread which essentially is saying we need to fire Mike Woodson over one year...one year... You can't say it was entertained in the first year...we hadn't been to the tourney in 6 years, and Woody got us there...You can't say it's over the 2nd year, as we were a #4 seed and finished 2nd in the Big 10... I'd really like to think y'all are reasonable, but that's not the word that comes to mind... This conversation has basically turned at least this thread into Rupp Rafters North as far as I'm concerned... And the names I hear...You think Bruce Pearl, Nate Oats, Chris Beard, or Eric Mussleman have never had a "down year"? Of course they have... One year... You are generalizing and I'm trying to bring context because my original point is: the evaluation of his performance is not black and white. The evaluation of how many years any coach deserves is not black and white. I prefer to judge this season on its own merits. The red herring arguments about some coach like Lou Henson having a down year in 1984 do absolutely nothing for me because you'd have to compare each situation individually: what constitutes a down year for all these coaches you bring up? First four out of being on the path to not making the NIT? What type of talent do they have on their roster? Have they proven their systems work in the college game? Did their team show any improvement in their down year? Etc. Etc. I will repeat again: it's not that we are losing it's how we are losing. If CMW was near the top of the hump and competing in games that is one thing. But it looks like the team is climbing up an escalator that's going the wrong way. We are not only underperforming, we are badly underperforming. The things that needed to be improved upon in year one and year two are not only not getting better, they are getting worse: defensive switching, rebounds, free throws, turnovers, bad fouls, 3pt differential. I wasn't expecting to be better this year. But I was expecting to see some progress in some areas. For just about every metric, I don't see progress. I really do want Woody to succeed so bad. I'm not sure if I want him fired, but as each game goes by, he's not making it easy. If that's too irrational for you, I don't know what to say. 4 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
btownqb Posted February 12 Report Share Posted February 12 47 minutes ago, BobSaccamanno said: Also it’s not shooting percentage alone. It’s volume. That’s the real issue. Lot of guys can make threes if they wait until they are wide open and have as much time as they want to get it off. It’s an entirely different thing to be Steve Alford. yes, and complementary pieces ....again TG, XJ, and Cupps don't compliment each other. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Feathery Posted February 12 Report Share Posted February 12 1 hour ago, ledies22 said: Maybe its a misconception or maybe its unreasonable, but out of the +/-5,000 D1 college kids only 41 shoot 40% or above. Not sure what the minimum attempts are, but all of these kids average more than 5 attempts/game. I didn’t look it up. I was going off memory of when we had Hull, Oladipo, and Watford all shooting 3’s above 40%. Yogi had a down year shooting his freshmen year if I remember correctly but was over 40% the rest of his career. Again going off memory. essentially that’s the level of shooting I’d like to see again. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ephul Posted February 12 Report Share Posted February 12 1 hour ago, BobSaccamanno said: There’s nothing in IU’s history that tells you that they’d make a play for Beard, Oats or Pearl. Quinn may have brought us Woody and Dolson tried to put in guardrails with Matta and Fife. But Woody was the guy who made Dolson fly to him for the interview and Fife and Matta didn’t take. That’s the picture that formed. When I was a kid my grandmother had two dogs, a big muscular one and a tiny one. The little one had a temper and acted like it was going to go berserk every time another dog would come by. The big dog stayed calm. The little dog knew the big dog was there for him. Woody has had Quinn. But Quinn’s character can never be questioned. He’d never treat IU like his personal playground for a buddy. It’s way bigger than one person and he knows it. I think he will know when it’s right. But will they switch to going after a flamboyant guy like Pearl or a guy like Beard? I will believe it when I see it. Unfortunately, this is 100% correct. Can't have a coach that the administration can't control and can't have someone "bigger" than them. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
btownqb Posted February 12 Report Share Posted February 12 4 minutes ago, Feathery said: I didn’t look it up. I was going off memory of when we had Hull, Oladipo, and Watford all shooting 3’s above 40%. Yogi had a down year shooting his freshmen year if I remember correctly but was over 40% the rest of his career. Again going off memory. essentially that’s the level of shooting I’d like to see again. Respectfully, I have mentioned this a bunch... the line has moved since then... If you shoot, with volume, at 36-37%+ you're a solid shooter. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hoosierdave Posted February 12 Report Share Posted February 12 18 hours ago, DC2345 said: I’m not so sure about that Since you seem to have good connections, I’ll consider Beard/Pearl/Drew/Oats/Few etc as no shots. In addition to May/Shrews, do you think any of these guys would be possibilities: Shaka Smart, TJ Otzelberger, Greg McDermott, Mick Cronin, Porter Moser, Jerome Tang, Randy Bennett, Jamie Dixon, Mike White. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Indykev Posted February 12 Report Share Posted February 12 4 hours ago, Hoosierdave said: What concerns me the most about Woody is that everyone thought the biggest issue would be recruiting but he’s actually done quite well there (Ware, Mac, Fino, Reneau, Liam). Instead, the worst parts are his schemes and roster construction- things that you would assume he was brought here for due to his experience handling that at a higher level. I would feel better about the future if I knew for a fact Reneau and Liam were staying, Gallo was fine with being a 6th man if need be, and our staff was attacking the portal for guards. Also, adjusting our schemes to prioritize perimeter scoring and a balanced attack with speed and movement. I just struggle with having confidence in Woody that he can do that. We as fans have bitched and moaned for like 8+ years now about shooting and yet Archie, his leftover assistances (Hunter, Walsh) and Woody haven’t seen its importance until it’s been too late. Woody also talked about his former NBA teams and how much they shot beyond the arc and said we would do a 4 out 1 in once TJD left because we only played bully ball as a result of his skill set. Instead, we’re doing it just as frequently and we’re again getting exposed for our lack of balance and perimeter threats. I know some people say the fan base is toxic by asking for a new coach every 4 years or less. But it’s not the fans who decided to hire a mid major coach who made a couple deep tourney runs or a guy who has NBA coaching experience but none in college. If we had listened to the national media and allowed their opinions to form our decisions so we don’t look “toxic”, we would have ended up struggling with Archie for 2 more years and hired Alford afterward and been in a similar situation. Woody knew himself he was brought here as a short term hire and said he came here to “win championships”. To me, short term hires are made because of the confidence you have that someone can come in quickly and improve the situation. Not the case with Woody. Would have been interesting with Matta had he passed his physical. I would be more patient and understanding if we weren’t top 15-20 in game attendance, NIL donations, revenue, and social media presence. Objectively, we have way too many pieces for a coach to be successful. We’re also paying Woodson a top 10-15 salary. If it weren’t for us fans and our patience through all the ups and downs, we’d be a Georgetown/DePaul/Louisville. The only objective reason Woody should get another year is to reduce the amount of $ in his buyout so you can throw a Brad Stevens type offer for the next dream coach. If Woody and Dolson want to talk about how much they love this program, then they would honor that by having some self awareness and doing what we did with Allen and pull the plug before it gets even worse. You can't say roster construction is the issue while saying recruiting isnt an issue. Woodson is 1 get on 31 offers for the 2024 loaded class. Thats not good recruiting. Pulled 0 guards from the portal when you are desperate isnt good recruiting. agree with more everything else. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IU Scott Posted February 12 Report Share Posted February 12 Listening to Queery on 107.5 and he was talking about Randy Bennett from St. Mary's. He met him on radio row at the FF. I did not realize that Bennett is from Indiana and his mom still lives in Southport. I knew he has been very successful there and I wonder why he is still there. I thought he would he a coach to look at but I looked him up and saw he is 62. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kdug Posted February 12 Report Share Posted February 12 2 minutes ago, Indykev said: You can't say roster construction is the issue while saying recruiting isnt an issue. Woodson is 1 get on 31 offers for the 2024 loaded class. Thats not good recruiting. Pulled 0 guards from the portal when you are desperate isnt good recruiting. agree with more everything else. Recruiting and roster construction are similar, but to me recruiting is about bringing in talent while roster construction is bringing in the right talent. The two full recruiting classes Woodson has been here for have been ranked in the top 3 in the big ten. This coming year is still tbd, but at least the one player he has committed is a five star talent. So he’s bringing in players that outside sources think are talented. The issue is the talent that panned out all seems to be with big guys, which is a roster construction issue to me. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IUFLA Posted February 12 Report Share Posted February 12 1 hour ago, tdhoosier said: You are generalizing and I'm trying to bring context because my original point is: the evaluation of his performance is not black and white. The evaluation of how many years any coach deserves is not black and white. I prefer to judge this season on its own merits. The red herring arguments about some coach like Lou Henson having a down year in 1984 do absolutely nothing for me because you'd have to compare each situation individually: what constitutes a down year for all these coaches you bring up? First four out of being on the path to not making the NIT? What type of talent do they have on their roster? Have they proven their systems work in the college game? Did their team show any improvement in their down year? Etc. Etc. I will repeat again: it's not that we are losing it's how we are losing. If CMW was near the top of the hump and competing in games that is one thing. But it looks like the team is climbing up an escalator that's going the wrong way. We are not only underperforming, we are badly underperforming. The things that needed to be improved upon in year one and year two are not only not getting better, they are getting worse: defensive switching, rebounds, free throws, turnovers, bad fouls, 3pt differential. I wasn't expecting to be better this year. But I was expecting to see some progress in some areas. For just about every metric, I don't see progress. I really do want Woody to succeed so bad. I'm not sure if I want him fired, but as each game goes by, he's not making it easy. If that's too irrational for you, I don't know what to say. I don't see it as "generalizing" at all... Did you want Coach Woodson fired after the first year? My guess is "no" Did you want him fired after last year? Again, I'd guess "no." So that brings us to this year...And if you look at the teams that have beaten us, for the most part it's a pretty good group...Connecticut is #1, Purdue is #2, Auburn #12, Kansas #4, Wisconsin #11, Illinois #10, and Nebraska is unbeaten at home, including a win over Purdue...The 2 that have no explanation other than we didn't play well are Penn State at home and Rutgers on the road... Did we get steamrolled in some of those? Yes, we sure did... But you never factor in that our most common starting lineup is 2 freshmen, 2 sophomores, and a senior... I'm not going to make excuses for this team...they are what they are...I'd hoped for better, but as I've said many times, I think it's more a floor leadership issue than anything... My own opinion is that some of you can't see the forest for the artificial trees you've planted...There's not an AD alive that's going to fire a coach over "how" they won or lost, or schemes, or not getting technical fouls when some of you think he should...Mike Woodson is going to be judged by his overall won/loss record, and that's the truth... He'll be here next year, and despite what some think, I believe the majority of the core we have now is going to come back as well...He's said "we'll add some pieces" and we all have seen how one guy can many times make a difference... At the end of next year, we can assess then, and see where we're at...But starting a thread like this now is way too premature... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IU Scott Posted February 12 Report Share Posted February 12 9 minutes ago, IUFLA said: I don't see it as "generalizing" at all... Did you want Coach Woodson fired after the first year? My guess is "no" Did you want him fired after last year? Again, I'd guess "no." So that brings us to this year...And if you look at the teams that have beaten us, for the most part it's a pretty good group...Connecticut is #1, Purdue is #2, Auburn #12, Kansas #4, Wisconsin #11, Illinois #10, and Nebraska is unbeaten at home, including a win over Purdue...The 2 that have no explanation other than we didn't play well are Penn State at home and Rutgers on the road... Did we get steamrolled in some of those? Yes, we sure did... But you never factor in that our most common starting lineup is 2 freshmen, 2 sophomores, and a senior... I'm not going to make excuses for this team...they are what they are...I'd hoped for better, but as I've said many times, I think it's more a floor leadership issue than anything... My own opinion is that some of you can't see the forest for the artificial trees you've planted...There's not an AD alive that's going to fire a coach over "how" they won or lost, or schemes, or not getting technical fouls when some of you think he should...Mike Woodson is going to be judged by his overall won/loss record, and that's the truth... He'll be here next year, and despite what some think, I believe the majority of the core we have now is going to come back as well...He's said "we'll add some pieces" and we all have seen how one guy can many times make a difference... At the end of next year, we can assess then, and see where we're at...But starting a thread like this now is way too premature... If he is coming back he still needs to change some things lime the offense he runs and probably need to change some of his defensive principals because it seems they are to hard to learn. I also think he needs to make some major changes to his coaching staff. He needs to be willing to listen to his coaches and get able to make more in game adjustments Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Indykev Posted February 12 Report Share Posted February 12 Here is another reason. If Woodson is a great recruiter as some have said, well then its coaching. 5 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hoosierdave Posted February 12 Report Share Posted February 12 15 minutes ago, Indykev said: You can't say roster construction is the issue while saying recruiting isnt an issue. Woodson is 1 get on 31 offers for the 2024 loaded class. Thats not good recruiting. Pulled 0 guards from the portal when you are desperate isnt good recruiting. agree with more everything else. I get what you’re saying but I think as KDug just mentioned, there’s a difference between recruiting and roster construction. Woody has landed 3 talented players and established a relationship with the best high school in the country (Liam, Malik, Fino, maybe Queen). Liam is Woodsons third burger boy. We had more top 50 players visit campus this year than we have this decade. According to Trilly, we had Fland ready to announce IU until he had to push his formal announcement date back because of his high school coach. Yes, Woody is paying the price with the 2024 class with his “go big or go home” approach. I also just looked at the offers though and I don’t see any that we were in the lead for and screwed our selves with. I know the staff wanted Schwartz and Boeteng but they never got on campus and had others schools prioritizing them more. Maybe you could argue Mustaf but I know schools like NC State, Georgia Tech, and Maryland felt they were serious contenders too. Guys like Flory, Newell, and Harper got on campus but we all knew for a while wouldn’t end up here. I wouldn’t personally say his recruiting and landing talent to be a weakness as much as his ability is to have said talent complement each other and compile a roster that makes sense. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Indykev Posted February 12 Report Share Posted February 12 IU is now the 4th maybe 5th best team in the STATE. How does that look through your rose colored glasses ? 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IndySportsPartizan Posted February 12 Report Share Posted February 12 (edited) I favorite article on Dusty https://archive.is/kKf2B Edited February 12 by IndySportsPartizan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Inequality Posted February 12 Report Share Posted February 12 What is a great recruiter? Having a connection to MonteVerde? It’s was my understanding the recruiting connections was through Hunter and Rosemond. MonteVerde specifically is all Kenya Hunter. Not Mike Woodson. I understand Woodson is responsible for the overall assembly of the roster & for managing his staffs movements. I don’t understand the “hes a proven successful recruiter”. Or team is poorly assembled right now. Bako wasn’t recruited by Woodson. So how exactly is he a “ good recruiter?” 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Inequality Posted February 12 Report Share Posted February 12 Mcneely, JHS, Queen (not signed) & Reneau are all Kenya Hunter. Where is the talent Woodson brought in? Ware? Nah, that’s Rosemond. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IUskim Posted February 12 Report Share Posted February 12 16 minutes ago, Inequality said: Mcneely, JHS, Queen (not signed) & Reneau are all Kenya Hunter. Where is the talent Woodson brought in? Ware? Nah, that’s Rosemond. Wasn’t Walsh the main on mcneely? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Inequality Posted February 12 Report Share Posted February 12 1 minute ago, IUskim said: Wasn’t Walsh the main on mcneely? He was given the credit yes. The MonteVerde/IU connection was established by Kenya Hunter. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tdhoosier Posted February 12 Report Share Posted February 12 55 minutes ago, IUFLA said: But you never factor in that our most common starting lineup is 2 freshmen, 2 sophomores, and a senior... I factor that in. 1 hour ago, IUFLA said: I'm not going to make excuses for this team you literally just did in the previous sentence. 56 minutes ago, IUFLA said: There's not an AD alive that's going to fire a coach over "how" they won or lost Sure there is. It happens every year. 58 minutes ago, IUFLA said: At the end of next year, we can assess then, and see where we're at...But starting a thread like this now is way too premature... Didn’t know we needed permission. This is a message board we assess everything……to death. I respect your opinion, but I’m not sure why you want shut down the conversation. Just don’t read the thread if it bothers you. 3 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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