Arkansas post game

[IU Scott]

From the discussion last night where we were talking about other coaches turning it around after 3 years.  I did some research and here are some of the most successful coaches who started poorly then turned it around.  Here are the record for these coaches in the first 3 years.

Coach K 17-13, 10-17, 11-17

Izzo- 16-16, 17-12, 22-8

Wright- 19-13, 15-16, 18-17

Bennett- 15-16, 16-15, 22-10

Dean Smith- 8-9, 15-6, 12-12

Here is Miller's record so far 16-15, 19-16, 11-2 

[mrflynn03]

I'm starting to get the impression green's sloppy play and poor decisions could be because he probably feels overshadowed when he wants to be the man.  Think about how much better he played toward the end of last year with romeo sitting.  This is the 2nd year a freshman has been the focal point of the offense.

If we dont get a healthy rob and green cant settle his play down it could cost alot of games. 

[BobSaccamanno]

1 minute ago, Hoosierhoopster said:

It's fair to say the coach / staff blew this game. It's also fair to point out the coach / staff can't shoot for the players. It's also fair to point out the question he posed to you, when should a walk-on get put in the game, in the final 7 minutes? Realistically, that would'n't have gone any better and probably would've gone worse. Then the outcry would've been about just that, and deservedly. Pretty extreme to think of putting a walkon in in that situation, isn't it? 

I think we're all pretty pissed off at how this game went down, but when we step back from the emotional side of it, besides saying mistakes were made (they were), going further and calling for a coach's head is pretty extreme stuff. We were winning, we were winning well, we should've won -- but there were player mistakes and coaching mistakes at the end. That pretty much sums it up.

Good post.  I would just clarify that I am not calling for his head.  I think he gets year four even if we melt down like we did last year.  

Like I said, I like his intensity, his desire for tough defense, and even the ball movement in half-court sets.  But, it hasn't translated into anything sustained yet, and there have been troubling issues with pushing the right buttons, making the right moves, and having a well schooled team.

I like Archie and the path of least resistance for the school would be for him to be the guy.  At this point, he's proven absolutely nothing.  You get some skins on the wall and you can have some benefit of the doubt.  Right now we are in hope mode with nothing sustained to point to.

[IU Scott]

13 hours ago, IU878176 said:

Just curious, do you think Archie is the next coach K? I only ask because you bring up the coach K example so often.

No but at this time we have no idea who he  will turn out to be.  At that time did Duke think coach K was who he turned out to be.

[Zlinedavid]

1 minute ago, IU Scott said:

From the discussion last night where we were talking about other coaches turning it around after 3 years.  I did some research and here are some of the most successful coaches who started poorly then turned it around.  Here are the record for these coaches in the first 3 years.

Coach K 17-13, 10-17, 11-17

Izzo- 16-16, 17-12, 22-8

Wright- 19-13, 15-16, 18-17

Bennett- 15-16, 16-15, 22-10

Dean Smith- 8-9, 15-6, 12-12

Here is Miller's record so far 16-15, 19-16, 11-2 

IU fans would have been calling Sean Miller a failure or "Mike Davis" even in his third season. No postseason, Elite 8, then....NIT? Off with his head!

John Beilein? Only one tournament appearance in his 2nd year and then no post season? Firing squad!

Jay Wright? THREE NIT appearances? To the gulag!

[BobSaccamanno]

5 minutes ago, IU Scott said:

From the discussion last night where we were talking about other coaches turning it around after 3 years.  I did some research and here are some of the most successful coaches who started poorly then turned it around.  Here are the record for these coaches in the first 3 years.

Coach K 17-13, 10-17, 11-17

Izzo- 16-16, 17-12, 22-8

Wright- 19-13, 15-16, 18-17

Bennett- 15-16, 16-15, 22-10

Dean Smith- 8-9, 15-6, 12-12

Here is Miller's record so far 16-15, 19-16, 11-2 

What the first five guys did has literally no bearing on what Miller will do.  If you want to play that game, you could point to 1,000 coaches who started poorly, were poor in the middle, and ended poorly.  More correctly, statistics actually show that if you don't get good results, that will remain the case.  Picture the bell curve.  The vast majority will be in the middle and there will be a few on the edges who out-perform.  Based on this statistical approach, Miller would be doomed other than "so, you're saying there is a chance," Jim Carrey style.

[IU Scott]

4 hours ago, IndySportsPartizan said:

Eric Musselman is a hell of a coach. If Archie doesn't pan out (trending to look like maybe it won't) I would hope we do our due diligence in vetting Musselman. 

Nevada

24-14 (CBI champs)

28-7

29-8 Sweet 16

29-5

Arkansas

11-1

 

NBA D-League Coach of the Year (2012)
MWC Coach of the Year (2018)

 

I don't know but I would think our fan base would be screaming at the shot selection that Arkansas showed last night

[IUFLA]

16 minutes ago, BobSaccamanno said:

Thanks for the response.  I don't agree with your take on the game, but we can agree to disagree.  We would just get repetitive at this point.

I do take issue with you muddling and twisting two of my points, though.  I illustrated what Knight did over the years in terms of the bench and you know darn well that it worked for decades.  That was a broader point.  Archie was not able to stabilize the team and get them on message down the stretch which was a failure in a specific situation, which was on the coach.  

You talk about 1:35 but the critical part was when we were up double digits and squandered it in an instant with ill-advised shots and erratic decision-making.  They didn't value the ball at all.  That was the point where the coach needs to see what is crumbling and get to the bottom of it.  1:35 was after the critical segment of the game.  Beyond that, it is alarming how mentally out of touch the guards are as if they have had no training in how to handle the situation you are in.  That's coaching, preparation, film study, etc.  Our guys should not be so out of touch or should at least be able to be reigned in quickly because they are so well schooled.  

I am not sure how people think it is defensible to think that it's not on a coach to get his team to play smarter basketball.  There's hardly anything more fundamental in a coach's job. 

And that's fine...I'm ok with a difference of opinion...

Not sure how I "muddled and twisted" your words though. I've watched a lot of IU basketball through the years, and I really don't remember RMK putting in a walk on in a close game to prove a point.

I look at it like this...players like Devonte Green are what they are. They can be great and help you win, and they can kill any chance you have to do so...

I think Archie came to the conclusion last year that his best chance to win included a lineup with Devonte. Without him, we struggle to score from the outside. Florida State would have beaten us without him. 

But you're not going to change the essence of the player, especially an upper classman, in 1 + years. You're definitely not going to do it late in the game during a timeout. Archie was hoping Devonte would make plays, not mistakes. 

Had he brought someone else in, that would have been questioned too...

[IU878176]

2 minutes ago, Zlinedavid said:

IU fans would have been calling Sean Miller a failure or "Mike Davis" even in his third season. No postseason, Elite 8, then....NIT? Off with his head!

John Beilein? Only one tournament appearance in his 2nd year and then no post season? Firing squad!

Jay Wright? THREE NIT appearances? To the gulag!

Can’t see these examples enough :).

There are also a lot of coaches, including mid-major coaches that did not successfully transition to the big time, that had a bad first three years and did not pan out. They never seem to get mentioned.

The question now is....Will Archie turn out to be good or not pan out?
I’m not sure, and am losing confidence, but really, really hope he turns out to be the guy.

[Long Duk Dong]

18 minutes ago, IU Scott said:

Well if you can fire a coach then you should be able to come up with a replacement

I don't want Miller fired. He's a good solid coach. He just doesn't move the needle. 

[IU Scott]

4 hours ago, NCHoosier32 said:

i mean at the very minimum get a timeout... chew him out... tell him if he can't take care of the ball, take good shots, and feed the post that you will put a walk on in.

He did call timeouts and he did yank him out of the game but when you only had two other guards you had to put him back in.  Also in the press conference Archie said that the players just did not move or run the plays the way they were suppose to do.

[IUskim]

9 minutes ago, Zlinedavid said:

IU fans would have been calling Sean Miller a failure or "Mike Davis" even in his third season. No postseason, Elite 8, then....NIT? Off with his head!

John Beilein? Only one tournament appearance in his 2nd year and then no post season? Firing squad!

Jay Wright? THREE NIT appearances? To the gulag!

My god. What year was the 15-16 NIT birth? How bad was college basketball that year if 15-16 got you into the NIT

[bluegrassIU]

5 minutes ago, IU Scott said:

I don't know but I would think our fan base would be screaming at the shot selection that Arkansas showed last night

They have an undersized team, with a short bench. He is coaching how he has to. Let his guards chucknit up. If they catch fire, like yesterday, they have a shot. If not, they lose a game they were gonna lose anyways.

If their shots were not falling from 3/4 court, we win by 15.

They played the only style that gave them a chance, and it paid off.

[Zlinedavid]

Just now, IUskim said:

My god. What year was the 15-16 NIT birth? How bad was college basketball that year if 15-16 got you into the NIT

02-03

[IU Scott]

3 hours ago, NCHoosier32 said:

I am definitely not sold on getting rid of Arch yet.  He deserves 1 more year, but... why would we be optimistic that we'll be a tourney team next year?  TJD will be gone.  Green will be gone (good or bad?  not sure).  We have some nice recruits coming in, but not immediate game changers.  no top 75 guys.  How often do freshmen come in ranked around 100 and immediately have huge impacts?  Another year after this one of not making the tourney and then what?

I bet TJD will not be a one and done player so I see him being back next year.

[CTrojan88]

10 minutes ago, IU Scott said:

From the discussion last night where we were talking about other coaches turning it around after 3 years.  I did some research and here are some of the most successful coaches who started poorly then turned it around.  Here are the record for these coaches in the first 3 years.

Coach K 17-13, 10-17, 11-17

Izzo- 16-16, 17-12, 22-8

Wright- 19-13, 15-16, 18-17

Bennett- 15-16, 16-15, 22-10

Dean Smith- 8-9, 15-6, 12-12

Here is Miller's record so far 16-15, 19-16, 11-2 

In games against ‘decent’ competition this year, this team is 4-2.  The other 7 wins are absolute garbage.  I am including Nebraska as decent even though they only had 7 or 8 scholarship players available.  UConn and Notre Dame were included as well.  As the season progresses, I think we will see that the wins over those three teams weren’t all that impressive.  Pounding your chest for this team being 11-2 is for fans that don’t deal in reality.

[IndySportsPartizan]

We can over speculate all we want, its what we do. Im just as pissed about last night as you guys are. Compassion fatigue if you will. 

However, we are 11-2 and the season will be judged on how we do in B1G play. Going 9-9 and finishing 20-11 is a successful season. 

Archie will be judged on how we finish the season and not one game against Arkansas. Lets let the season ride and hop on the bus with our players. Ride or die. 

 

If we die though, I seriously want us to consider Musselman as a candidate.  😜

[macomb hoosier]

10 minutes ago, BobSaccamanno said:

RP is my favorite player and has been since we recruited him.  You can't find me say a negative thing about him.  I have said before I think he can be a Mike Conley level player, and Conley has made tens of millions.  The kid can pass, shoot, and defend.  He's got leadership.  There's nothing to not like about him.

But, the first and most important trait a player has is availability.  RP has not been consistently there for the team.  It may not have been his fault but at some point you have to play consistently and be there.  That has yet to happen.

Archie is playing RP more minutes than the medical is giving him license to.

In this game, Durham got himself kicked out 5 minutes in. RP looked to be pulling himself out of the game, and Franklin is a frosh who would benefit from a slower integration into the game. Archie actually sat Green from 6:45-5:20 in a game he really couldn't. You asked a good question about what Archie did so well in the final 7 minutes, but I don't think your suggestion "Bench Devonte" would have worked. So, who do you play at guard? Smith? I think the trend is clear, we are seeing more and more of Franklin/Phinisee in the final 5 minutes and that will keep going for the rest of the year.

Archie has been preaching for the past two weeks ("we don't need our guards to score/we need to focus on to/a") and he was about has direct after the game about the problem ("team didn't run plays" "Didn't get the ball to TJD"). You can see the minute allocations slowly change as people play themselves into and out of their "opportunities". I am bummed about this game, but I think it is a stretch to blame Archie.

[5fouls]

49 minutes ago, Zlinedavid said:

Closed the only Facebook account I ever had in 2005 (2005, not 2015). Not active on Instagram, Twitter, Snapchat, TikTok or whatever the latest social media network is. Cesspools.

I can understand you wanting to keep a low profile after the whole plane hijacking thing, but no TikTok?  You need to get with the times (Fouls says as he googles what TikTok even is).  

[Zlinedavid]

Just now, 5fouls said:

I can understand you wanting to keep a low profile after the whole plane hijacking thing, but no TikTok?  You need to get with the times (Fouls says as he googles what TikTok even is).  

It's what is big with the 10-13 year old crowds, or so my 11 year old nephew tells me. Damned if I know.

[5fouls]

2 minutes ago, CTrojan88 said:

In games against ‘decent’ competition this year, this team is 4-2.  The other 7 wins are absolute garbage.  I am including Nebraska as decent even though they only had 7 or 8 scholarship players available.  UConn and Notre Dame were included as well.  As the season progresses, I think we will see that the wins over those three teams weren’t all that impressive.  Pounding your chest for this team being 11-2 is for fans that don’t deal in reality.

So, I ask you what is wrong with 4-2?  Extrapolate that over a 30 game season and you get 20-10.  Not elite, but not 'Fire the Coach' either.  

[IUFLA]

7 minutes ago, IU878176 said:

Can’t see these examples enough :).

There are also a lot of coaches, including mid-major coaches that did not successfully transition to the big time, that had a bad first three years and did not pan out. They never seem to get mentioned.

The question now is....Will Archie turn out to be good or not pan out?
I’m not sure, and am losing confidence, but really, really hope he turns out to be the guy.

“Patience is not something a lot of fans have,” Knight said. “But this kid (Miller) is going to do a good job. Why? Because he can coach. Most of the coaches I’ve known, can’t coach."

I'll take this opinion over all others...I've always wondered what Tom Crean thought when he read that...

[BobSaccamanno]

52 minutes ago, Zlinedavid said:

Closed the only Facebook account I ever had in 2005 (2005, not 2015). Not active on Instagram, Twitter, Snapchat, TikTok or whatever the latest social media network is. Cesspools.

I am with you on this.  I am on Twitter but never post.  I just use it as a good source for links on a variety of subjects that keep me informed.  I am not on any of the others at all.  

[IU Scott]

2 hours ago, IUCrazy2 said:

Definitely Scott.  😛

Nope I am right here

[Indy1987]

15 minutes ago, Zlinedavid said:

IU fans would have been calling Sean Miller a failure or "Mike Davis" even in his third season. No postseason, Elite 8, then....NIT? Off with his head!

John Beilein? Only one tournament appearance in his 2nd year and then no post season? Firing squad!

Jay Wright? THREE NIT appearances? To the gulag!

That's all good but there are plenty of other coaches that failed their 1st three years and ended up getting canned later.

And I bet none of the coaches on your list were getting paid a top 10 salary starting out.  

Go Hoosiers!!!