IUCrazy2

1 minute ago, Euroclydon said:

Losing one recruit is not the end of IU baskerball. The kid could have helped but he wasn't going to turn them into title contenders by himself.

The bigger problem is two straight years of missing on key targets with no legit backups to fill in the gaps. They were fortunate to land Ware and MM the way they did.

The question is, what's happened in recruiting? If the money is there, and you've sent two guys to the NBA last season why are you struggling? What's IU lacking in the process? 

Our head coach doesn't like recruiting (apparently) and therefore is not as engaged in that process as he needs to be.  He doesn't do well in long term recruiting.  I think that is because he doesn't enjoy doing that and has other priorities and believes he can cobble together a team like they do in the pros through the college equivalent of free agency.

I really think it is that simple.  Recruiting high school kids requires more effort and ass-kissing than Woodson wants to do or believes he should have to do so he avoids it.  He is used to pro relationships where you don't have to coddle dudes.  That isn't this game.

That is my conjecture based on observation, things Woodson has said, and hearsay.

2 minutes ago, IU Scott said:

I agree but like it or not that is the reputation we have outside of our fan base. Sometimes perception becomes reality. Also when you are losing all the other coaches will use this in recruiting. Besides UK fans you never see anything nationally about other fan bases being lunatics.

That is because the only other fan bases that come anywhere close in size to Indiana's when it comes to online presence are schools that generally do well.  Only Duke has a bigger online presence.  The next closest are UNC and Kansas.  Other fanbases are too small to notice.  We have over 7 times as many people on Twitter(X) as UConn and over 6 times more than Purdue.

The problem is and was that Indiana markets itself as being one of those other 3 schools up with it but they don't actually operate like them.  They want all the benefits associated with that kind of fan engagement but they really haven't done much to actually earn it in over 23 years.

The fans have an emotional attachment to the program and the University sells that program to them based on that emotional connection.  Then they rarely live up to what they promise.  That creates pissed off customers.  And you add people like Hoosier Hysterics who are basically supported by the University because of access that come out before every year and talk the program up like they are going to be awesome, knowing that quite a bit of that is just wish-casting, and you just help feed the negativity when it goes wrong.  If Indiana really believes that what they are rolling out is what the program is going to be, they need to start matching that with their messaging.  Stop pointing at banners and talking about how awesome and part of b-ball royalty we are and instead get out there and start mimicking what Iowa and Minnesota do to promote their basketball teams.

When you keep promising a Ferrari and delivering a Honda Civic (which is an adequate car) it creates displeasure in the adequate car.

6 minutes ago, btownqb said:

We already struggled rebounding. Kopp was going to play the 4 some last year, anyways, before XJ went down. But again, lack of depth screwed us. 

That would have also meant Kopp would have had to check some pretty damn good 4s in the B1G last year..

He and Race were hard to place honestly.  If you were really going to upgrade that roster, making them both bench contributors was the way to go.  I just think we have been missing athleticism at that 3 spot for years.  Even Mgbako (who is a good player) isn't the type of guy I would want there.  

5 minutes ago, btownqb said:

I disagree on Miller. We saw how ineffective he was when offense ran through him at NW. He was truly only a stand still shooter, which is fine... 

I'm more frustrated we didn't send Race to the bench, tell JG to take a hike, and find a 4 man that was better suited to play with TJD than Race, over long stretches. 

If you found a 4 man that could facilitate at all, I think in turn, that would have created more opps for Miller organically. 

Think of the lineup you'd had-- 

TJD 

Insert a better 4 

Kopp 

JHS 

XJ 

 

Bench of TG, Race, Malik, and Bates. Thats a squad. 

But we wanted to twiddle our thumbs with Race and JG another year. 

I would have put Kopp at the 4 and got a more dynamic wing.

22 minutes ago, bronkonagurski said:

The "we" part annoys me. A fan base isn't a monolith acting and thinking in lockstep. I have no control over what anyone else says or does. The people who are toxic on social media, there is no telling them what to do. They won't listen. It isn't worth the time to worry about things you can't control. 

Yes and I want to be clear, I am pissed and I think we have every right to express our displeasure to each other.  Anybody tweeting back at an actual player is an @$$-hat.  If you are so upset that it would lead to you showing up just to boo the team tomorrow, just don't go.  That is the only acceptable form of (in person) protest IMO, your absence.

17 minutes ago, IUFLA said:

You stated "I am fine with people piling on a little hyperbole if that is what it takes to get the decision makers to hasten his departure." 

Which has turned into half truths and outright lies...

I'm a "believe half of what you see, and none of what you hear" type...You have to prove it to me with facts...Not some X cut and paste from a middle school coach or any nimrod with a podcast that happens to support your agenda (not talking about you in particular but it happens)

 

Everyone on these forums uses some hyperbole.  Everyone.  

For the rest, I think the rumors are more just confirmation of what I myself am observing from the outside looking in.  None of that is gospel.  I don't think he is going to be successful because he doesn't appear to want to do the things required to be successful at this level.  This isn't the NBA and what he is doing isn't going to work.

But hey, I am mad about that as opposed to just throwing my hands up and saying whatever.  I still think there might be a chance to see him pushed out and avoid next year if enough people stay pissed.  If he is back, I will take a big step back from the program and give the more positive and forgiving crowd what they want.  And that step back will be from IU athletics as a whole, which stinks because I am bought in on Cignetti at the moment but I won't give a dime or my time to IU if they keep Woodson another year.  I will probably come back and hope for the best from whomever they replace him with.  College basketball is my favorite sport, I am tired of having it be something that I do out of habit as opposed to it being fun.  I blame IU for the not being fun part and I blame my stupidity for letting it be a habit to spend time on something that I can tell you is likely to not be much fun next year.

2 minutes ago, BGleas said:

 

 

Doyel is Dan Dakich in print.

17 minutes ago, IUFLA said:

No it doesn't...not even close...As I said, y'all treat facts as inconveniences...

 

What did I say that was not factual? 

We have these arguments too often though because our AD keeps making stupid hires.  This gets as tiresome for us as it does for you.  This sucks.  The vast majority of springs the past 20 years we have spent on the outside looking in.  That has been even more so the xase in the last decade.  Woodson has done some alright things, every coach can say that.  So what?  

We are just going to end up antagonizing each other, you guys do this every time it becomes clear a dude needs to go.  I am not interested in getting pedantic with you.  The overall analysis on Woodson's tenure and his likely future should he be retained another year isn't good.  I don't care that he helped a couple guys get in the NBA.  I care he isn't helping us get wins now and his approach to roster building is going to take a miracle not yet pulled off in the portal era to have a product worth watching next year.  So I am not inclined to give a sh** about whatever small amount of credit he may deserve.  In the scheme of things it doesn't matter.

1 minute ago, IUFLA said:

And I find that despicable...And it's not "a little."

To each their own.  

The fanbase needs fans like you just like we need the pitchfork crowd.  Keeps everyone honest.  Unfortunately we are in the position where the pitchfork crowd needs to be at the forefront.  If Woodson was even doing half his job you could maybe defend him for this year but he isn't, so I won't.  He needs to go.

1 minute ago, IUFLA said:

The second sentence is exactly correct...It's the old "you can lead a horse to water" thing...

But you must insure they have the tools and the knowledge of their strengths and weaknesses and help them galvanize the former, and minimize the latter...That's leadership 101...

And in the video I posted, that's exactly what Trayce said Coach Woodson did for him...As Coach Knight said, "in basketball the importance of the mental to the physical is about four to one." A good leader helps much more with the mental...

No one is saying Woody has to stand out there and watch Trayce hoist 500 jump shots...

But facts are inconvenient things around here...

I am sure he did help him out with some stuff.  Woodson has been around the NBA so he has some knowledge of tweaking this or that for a player.  That being said, the guys he really "improved" were all thought to be pretty darn good to begin with.  JHS came in expected to be one and done.  His trajectory was nowhere close to that until a key injury forced the issue on where/how he was used.  TJD I think he helped round him out.  Ware got some help with his motor but his skill set was always there.  I think there has been some improvement on his motor.  That is especially true of late, but he is gearing up for the NBA so he has that extra incentive.

All that being said.  The philosophical approach Woodson has to the on court product doesn't match modern basketball.  He sucks at roster construction.  He is bullheaded to a fault.  He is lazy (too much smoke around that fire, so it is above rumor status at this point).

At the end of the day, damn him with faint praise, I am fine with that.  The totality of the situation is still that he overall sucks and needs fired.  I am fine with people piling on a little hyperbole if that is what it takes to get the decision makers to hasten his departure.  Woodson belongs on a golf course smoking a cigar.  He likes having the title of IU coach but he doesn't like the job.  He should be forced into retirement or fired in time to announce it on the Selection Sunday show.

29 minutes ago, BGleas said:

Completely agree. Can't remember, but I think you've been one who has said this before, but the fans are one of the only things (maybe the recruiting budget too) about Indiana Basketball that keeps it elite and relevant. 

With the results IU has had the last 20 years, how many other programs in the country would still be top 10 in attendance, top followed programs on social media, have a player like Gabe Cupps being a leader in NIL apparel sales, etc. 

To your point, maybe the fans should go away for a year.  

Yes I have said that but I think a bunch of people have.  When you line up the advantages of Indiana that are discussed whenever that job opens up, the only advantage I can think of that isn't related to fan support is the fact that Indiana churns out quite a bit of D1 talent (as does the immediate area) for a coach to mine.  Almost everything else of any consequence is the fans.  Their actual support, NIL, financial backing of the program itself, media presence which helps boost NIL, program getting on TV in big games....you can go down the line and the only reason Indiana isn't getting treated like Minnesota is fan support.

We would rarely sniff a national game if our fan support matched our record the past 2 decades.  I stopped watching Archie's last year.  You find there are other things to do with the 4 to 6 hours a week.  I am prepared to do that again if they keep Woodson.  Although I will probably extend that to the football team if he sticks around too.  I have attended some games on that side the past few years but I am tired of supporting an AD that doesn't treat its fans well.

11 hours ago, BGleas said:

This blame the fans narrative is annoying me more and more. 

It's like a doctor treating the symptoms but not addressing how you can prevent the disease. 

If the administration wasn't a complete 🤡 show and totally unserious about the basketball program, then the fans wouldn't be an issue whatsoever. 

 

 

If Woodson is here next year I pray that this program gets the support they deserve so it looks more like what they supposedly want.  Take the percentage of fans in the stands at Memorial Stadium on Saturdays and the activity you see discussing IU football and give them a year of that positive but minimal support in basketball.

Most of the team is going to be a bunch of paid mercenaries who I have zero attachment to, the staff sucks, and the administration is full of incompetent finger pointers who abuse their customers.  I hope Assembly Hall looks like Maryland's home court advantage this past year and everybody can get what they want.

12 minutes ago, IU Scott said:

Don Fischer was on the JMV show and was talking about all of this. He said he knows for a fact the fans does have influence on kids current or recruits with how they act on social media.

If our fans boo at senior night that will not only strengthen the reputation of our fan base. If you are unhappy just don't go to the game

Yeah, but that doesn't stop those same kids from going places like Kentucky.  The ONLY thing that keeps us in these conversations is the fans.  Period.  This program has been mostly a disaster for 23 years that is still viewed as "royalty" (although damaged) based solely on the support of people who keep going because of our memories of what it used to be.  Everything that everyone talks about as being an advantage of Indiana is almost entirely the fanbase.  When we play like sh**, people complain we are playing like sh**.  That is true of every fanbase that gives a damn about the team they are following.  You know whose fans are really quiet?  Basketball teams like Penn State where next to no one gives a rats @$$ because it isn't football.

The fans aren't the problem.  Mike Woodson's entitled, arrogant, lazy approach to his job is the problem.  Forgive fans for noticing they are getting fleeced.

All that being said, I agree with your last point.  Don't boo, just don't show up.  I get so ------- tired of the "fan's hurt the program" argument every time the administration screws up.  I wish people would just disappear if this sh** show is put on again next year.  Enjoy your 5,000 positive fans at Assembly Hall and nobody on Twitter noticing you suck and see how easy it is to pull people to come play at Indiana.

48 minutes ago, BGleas said:

I get he's trying to be positive, this is the type of stuff that makes me mad. The vast majority of the stuff IU fans are mad about is/was controllable. 

It's totally controllable to not run a garbage system. It's totally controllable to not load up on bigs and leave a scholarship open when you desperately need shooting and better guard/wing play. 

It's completely controllable to play your McDonald's AA freshman at the 4 sometimes when he's clearly a 4 and ypu clearly need to play smaller and faster. 

it's completely controllable to not ignore your prized, and only 2024 recruit for 3 full months. 

The staff hasn't "controlled" anything. 

 

 

If Leary wasn't trying to make a buck with his shooting school he would be one of the most negative about everything going on.

Based on what is coming out, Woodson is a lazy, arrogant, joke of a basketball coach who has no business anywhere but a golf course enjoying retirement.  Get him the ---- out of here.

5 minutes ago, OGIUAndy said:

But he's the best PG we have and when he's playing well, we're a way better team. 

Too bad that only happens once every 4 or 5 games.

11 minutes ago, 5fouls said:

If some guy named Lnecht visited, that could be what caused the confusion.  Coaches were expecting a Knecht.  

Yeah, typo, I fixed it.

33 minutes ago, tdhoosier said:

Did this go over my head but do we know what transfer recruit he was referring to? Ledlum? Knecht?

Knecht never visited.  They didn't name names.  People ran with Love as that one fell apart right after he left campus (which would match the story).

6 minutes ago, toonsquad said:

 

The most important part of that starts around the 15:30 mark.  I don't know how you invite someone to your program and don't even bother to learn their name.

12 minutes ago, btownqb said:

Put Tom Crean and Jordy Hulls in charge of scouting/recruit visits, etc. Hell idk. lol 

I could see doing that in a case where you have a guy who is pretty good at those things and puts in the work but you are wanting to supplement that to try and get a leg up.  That kind of GM role?  Sign me up.

This appears to be more of a case of the guy we hired isn't competent at doing his core job so we need to hire more people just to bring him up to speed with every other coach in P5.  And you know, if you had a guy who was an X's and O's genius who just needed help getting the Jims and Joes, you could almost live with that.  The problem is that we are getting neither.

27 minutes ago, btownqb said:

See--- we're different. I'd root for Grayson Allen. 

I just don't like any of them.  His whole recruitment here was a troll job.  I would take the rest of their class but that kid can get bent.

13 minutes ago, dbmhoosier said:

No other top 50 program much less a top 10 program would've even given Woody a sniff if he had wanted to get into college coaching.  I don't blame Woody.  Yes he's clueless and lazy but if you were going to pay me millions of dollars a year to sit around drink wine, and smoke cigars, I'd jump at the opportunity and so would everyone here.

He never should've been hired.

And the thing is, they knew that.  That is why they forced Matta (in particular) and Fife on him.  They knew, they just did not care.

6 hours ago, BGleas said:

Take our NIL money and try and pull a "Self" on Rutgers' recruiting class? 🤣

 

 

I would rather watch it burn than have to root for a member of the Harper family.

4 minutes ago, BGleas said:

 

 

It is laziness.  Woodson is f---ing lazy.  That is why you hear rumblings of a GM or building rosters through the portal every year.  He was used to the NBA lifestyle and he likes the trappings that come with being the head coach at Indiana but he doesn't want to do the work.

He needs to just retire so he can do what he really wants to do.  This is all a vanity project to feed his ego.  He wanted this a decade ago and got rejected so now it is just a status thing for him.  

24 minutes ago, Cbp4IU said:

 

L-O-L

Dumpster fire

21 minutes ago, DunkinDipo said:

So we're loading up the money to buy Woody some players but we can't pony up the money to fire him and hire a coach that doesn't need the most expensive hired hands to be successful?? I can already see what's going to happen...we'll have the highest payroll in college basketball with mediocre results. Cool

And a GM to continue to explain to him how college is different.

Loading up on a bunch of portal players every year is not building a bridge or any kind of future.  It is just temporary bandaid to cover up that Woodson is a mediocre coach overall who is maybe a step below even that when you add up all the things he didn't have to do in the NBA that he should be doing now.