IUCrazy2

2 minutes ago, NCHoosier32 said:

it is crazy.  what gets me is how many losses even the teams ranked in the top 10 have these days.  i think most of us agree that that isn't the only issue with IU bball.  it's the product we see.  also teams like ISU, Auburn, etc didn't used to be mentioned in the same sentence as IU bball.  while they may be sputtering a little right now, they are tournament bound and we are not.  

The portal is turning all the programs into NBA G League teams.  Every year is a cobbled together squad where even the most talented teams will struggle from time to time because they don't have that actual growth together that teams had in the past.

2 minutes ago, NCHoosier32 said:

well, game day... around 5pm this thread will either shut the site down with too much activity due to losing at home to NW or get a short break?

I wouldn't be shocked if the response is muted either way.  I don't think these last few games do much to move the needle for most people one way or the other on their opinion.  Everything important about this program going forward is going to happen in the offseason.

27 minutes ago, IU Scott said:

McNeely plays the 2 at Montverde

This isn't high school.

46 minutes ago, DC2345 said:

That’s actually not true. MM projects to be really good next year regardless of if he is at the 3 or 4. He’s one of the best FR in the B1G. That said the team would likely be better if he’s at the 4. The problem with that is Reneau. Not MM. Reneau wants to be the 4 last I heard. 

If MM is at the 3 and Reneau the 4, we are right back to this year and you also have McNeely outside of his natural position (as likely the 2) getting attacked by smaller and quicker players and if Woodson has shown anything it is that his defense is great at negating that...(DWS)

48 minutes ago, IUJoe said:

While I agree, he's also going to have to be coached to do something other than stand and watch his man collect offensive rebounds.

I am avoiding the whole coaching thing.  That entire approach is going to have to change (which is why my current faith that this is going to end where we want it is really low).

27 minutes ago, DC2345 said:

People don’t have to gauge things with Banks and Gunn. They’re almost certainly leaving. Reneau is who was being reached out to but I don’t think things went too far. It’s sounding like MM could be back. I still believe Galloway is back as well. 

The only way MM being back matters is if Mike moves him to the 4 and he accepts that role.

Yuck

22 minutes ago, DC2345 said:

There was a rumor of teams reaching out to people around a notable player at IU. That said it wasn’t the player being talked about on BTB and it definitely didn’t involve Purdue. Purdue only has one open scholarship for next year right now and they’re being very selective with a large class already coming in. 

Reneau

https://btownbanners.com/topic/14310-fire-coach-woodson/?do=findComment&comment=860511

All the red flags are starting to show up.....

ETA:  This is merely a rumor.  Nothing set in stone.  Don't construe it as "Trey is gone".  That being said, how many times have we been right here the past 20 years?  This type of stuff has never ended well for the coach it was swirling around.  That is what is driving my negativity towards another Woodson year.  If this is a huge roster turnover year, I have zero faith he can get the necessary pieces portal shopping to do much more next year than he has this.  If we are going to have a complete rebuild, just go get the next guy.  Your bridge just collapsed.

2 hours ago, CoachSS said:

As of right now, the coaches expect they'll be back and they expect the head coach to return.

There's a lot of reasons for this (doesn't mean anyone has to like them). 

But, the vibes aren't nearly as high as they once were. (Duh, no $h!t right?). 

Go Hoosiers. 

Yippee.

Honestly I hope Woody pulls a rabbit out of a hat and we finally get a good year because I am beyond tired of mediocre to sh** basketball.  And if this ends up going about how I think it will next year and we retain him, I hope Dolson gets fired with him.

4 minutes ago, Maedhros said:

I actually remain optimistic about next year precisely because of the fork in the road this season represents. Coming from the NBA - where you are what your record says you are - it's easy to get back to the playoffs in year one, get a better seed and advance another round in year two, and say "my shit is working". A season like this forces some hard truths and introspection. 

I do think Dolson should have that conversation. Make it clear this season is unacceptable, and discuss what changes Woodson is willing and able to make to be successful at this level. If Woodson decides he's an old dog and doesn't want to learn new tricks, so be it. But it's not hard to squint and see a way it can come together as quickly as next year. Reneau, Mgbako and McNeeley is a dynamic frontcourt that provides excellent spacing. Change your portal strategy to go all out for guards. Recognize that instant impact Boogie Fland's are nice, but you can win by supplementing your five stars even with guys who won't sniff the NBA.

Many have responded to this season by saying Woodson should be fired. My response is to ask what changes will we see to ensure a season like this never happens again. Woodson has earned the opportunity to answer that question.

Mike Woodson is the Indiana coach until he isn't. Woodson's age shouldn't matter to anyone except Woodson. You judge him on his ability to effectively coach and lead this program and that's that. I get wanting to build something you know will last, but sports success is so fleeting, I'll take joy where I can get it. If it's a few great years from Woodson before he retires, so be it. I'll have fun for a time, and the program will be a better place when he hands it off to the next guy. That's why I'm content giving Woodson more time to turn this around, until it becomes clear he can't or won't.

You are more patient and forgiving then I.  I would force him out specifically because I don't think he has it and in sports I don't believe in "fair".

On 2/2/2024 at 11:02 AM, Maedhros said:

Dustin Dopirak had some recent comments on Twitter that I've been thinking on ever since:

This thinking seems to explain what we've seen as well as anything. Woodson has brought in some talented guys: Tamar, Hood-Schifino, Reneau, Ware, Mgbako, even convincing Trayce to stay. Where it seems we've struggled has been in developing that supporting cast. 

I've been puzzled by our recruiting for a few years now. We didn't land many prep targets in '23, with the explanation we were conserving resources for '24. But then that class rolls around and we again hone in on a select group of guys at the very top. When we don't get them there's not really a plan B of guys in that 40-100 range who will contribute over multiple years. In fact, we actively stop recruiting those guys because we're trying to land bigger fish. This is an adjustment to the college game Woodson needs to make that was perhaps overlooked in discussion at the time of his hire. Kids don't need NBA potential to still contribute on winning teams at the college level.

This familiarity with what NBA players can do also explains some coaching decisions. There's the infamous quote that it's not his job to get Miller Kopp shots. Might ring true in the NBA, where guys are freaks and can mostly do whatever you ask. College players are less skilled, and I imagine needing of more structure in support. Maybe Kopp is doing all he can, but when players are still growing, still learning what they can do, and trying to find who they are as a player - like every other college kid - maybe they don't think of passing out to Kopp unless you actively coach it into being a habit. Guys in the league are closer to fully formed. Guys in college need more guidance.

I actually don't think Woodson is necessarily stubborn. We've seen a lot of changes in Xs and Os strategy over the years, and this season alone. The lack of use of the three point shot remains puzzling, but perhaps this is best explained by ossification. The NBA is still what Woodson knows best. A season like this, which demonstrates all the ways college is different, might be just what's needed to prompt a new approach. 

 

 

I think all of that may be 100% dead on and it leads me to believe that is the reason I don't want Mike doing the roster overhaul and rebuild this summer.  I don't want to dump more resources and time into a 66 year old that is just now learning that college isn't the NBA.  That is year one stuff, not year four.  How long do you think it takes him to figure out? 1 to 3 years?  So say at 69 he has maybe had 1 or 2 more one and dones in the tournament along with a miss or two, but now he has got things figured out...at 69.  Does anyone think Mike is coaching until he is 75?  I don't.

The type of investment you are describing is the type of investment you make in a younger, up and coming coach.  Not a 66 year old.  Mike didn't have time to figure out that the NBA is different from college.  He needed to come in knowing that.  So he sits looking into year 4 on a massive downward trajectory with 1 HS recruit currently committed and looking at needing to hit a whole bunch of home runs in the portal to even begin to start turning things around.  I think you add his issues listed above to that most likely reality and you sit down and tell him, "I think if you had more time that this could work out, but how much longer are you really wanting to do this because I don't feel we have another 3 years for you to get yourself situated to the college game and this upcoming year looks really concerning from where I sit..."

He needs to retire.

50 minutes ago, IU Scott said:

Even with RMK here Keady had a winning record vs IU

Yeah but we had 3 things that overrode that.  No one was making that argument then.

4 minutes ago, Hoosierdave said:

It’s a double edged sword in my opinion.

I agree that if fans don’t show up, Dolson will have to make moves because he can’t have a “dead man walking” as a coach and a quarter filled Assembly Hall all next year.
 

On the other hand, my gut says it’s important to continue to show love and support for this team until the season ends. Could be the difference in keeping some vital pieces (Malik, Liam) and adding some in the portal. Plus, if we did want to hire a new coach this off-season, the pitch becomes easier because you can say, “look at the passion and loyalty our fans show with a below average team. Imagine the atmosphere and NIL donations you’ll get when you return this program to winning tradition.” You can “negative recruit” against Ohio St, Michigan, Louisville and claim these programs just have “fair weather fans”.

 

Indiana has shown over the past 2 decades that they are more than willing to collect money for bad play until they get embarrassed by the fans.  Indiana fans are "toxic" because this school ALWAYS goes one more year.  

19 hours ago, IUFLA said:

I live in Texas... You start talking to younger kids here about IU or Purdue they think "football" and "suck." 🙂

Just my opinion, but the "history" Purdue has made lately is being great in the preseason, but getting embarrassed by a double digit seed in the tournament...

Look, I do get it. It sucks when we lose twice to Purdue and have a mediocre (so far) year. But this is one of the things I think is insane... Puffing up Purdue and making it seems like we're far inferior... Well, our far inferior team kicked the crap out of them twice last year, and that's pretty recent history.

As for PUke not playing the NIL game, that's a misnomer too... As much as our interloping friends like to preen about and promote the purity of Painter and Purdue, Zach Edey didn't come back for "the glory of old PU." He got paid...

And if they don't up their NIL game in other areas, it'll eventually catch up with them... 

 

I have a 15 year old (since we are talking about teenagers).  We have been pretty inferior to Purdue over his lifetime.  How inferior?  Purdue is 20-9 against Indiana over his lifetime.  4 of the 9 wins were 2012 and 2013.  We won 4 in a row.  We won 2 more last year.  We split in 2016 and 2022.

Our success this century was Mike Davis.  He brings us closer to even but they still have a 23 to 19 advantage.  So anyone less than 24 years old is likely going to view them as the better program.  It really isn't even arguable.

As to the NIL, you know what has helped drive that right?  Fans who experienced success.  Anyone less than 40, if they are being honest, isn't viewing modern Indiana as on some plane above Purdue.  We're we when Knight was here?  Absolutely.  But that is ancient history at this point.  It is a fun data point like the Branch McCracken teams are to me.  Nice history but I didn't experience it and really I am more interested in the here and now than I am somebody my Grandpa watched play.  Everything that you point to as making this a good program is on life support right now.  People are pointing out to you the warning signs and you got your fingers in your ears.

This program is in big trouble if they don't turn things around soon.

35 minutes ago, IU Scott said:

Also this site needs to step up because the BTB Fire Woodson thread is already at 100 pages  in less than two weeks

I think the negative sentiment is higher on that site than here.  And those of us who are trending negative here tend to soft sell that because it really bothers some people.

34 minutes ago, IU Scott said:

The thing is are Maryland fans staying away to protest something or is it they don't have good fans. Their coach is just is in his second season so I wouldn't think they are done with Willard.

Maryland is a good parallel to what has happened at Indiana.  Sometimes, new guy or not, if you start to fall off, the previous guy's poor results end up clouding how people view you.

The "Here we go again..." phenomenon is very real.

1 hour ago, IUFLA said:

I'm not sure that's a good analogy... Baking and basketball are quite a bit different...

And of course a good coach can make a difference... The old "he can take his and beat yours, then take yours and beat his" can apply... 

But Jay Wright doesn't win big without those 3 things... Neither does Self, or Izzo, or Knight for that matter... Coach Knight's greatest team had talent (Benson, May) experience (Buckner, May, Wilkerson, Abernathy), and leadership (Buckner)... That's absolutely what made them great... Did Coach Knight have a great effect on them? Absolutely, but let's just say he didn't have bad eggs and old flour to work with... 

Use your 3 items to explain what Woodson has going for him going into year 4.  I think there are more than those 3, but defend him based on the 3.  I think that is the criteria I would judge him on.  

1 hour ago, Hoosierdave said:

Not surprised at all. 
 

Terrified at the idea of us losing a bunch to end the season, Malik and Liam dip, Queen goes elsewhere, and we end up with a Maryland type attendance next year as a bottom feeder B10 team. 

That is how fans talk.  Don't show up to boo.  Just don't show up.  The season is over unless this team wins the BTT.  That means none of these 7 remaining games really matter one way or the other.

22 minutes ago, Hoosierdave said:

Lists like this give me hope IU can land a good coach. If schools like Ohio St and Louisville think guys like Muss, Oates, and McDermott can be plucked, I don’t see why we should think we have no chance and are wasting time even considering. 

IIRC, weve had a better previous 2 seasons than both. 

That same guy would probably tell you no one wants Indiana.  A benefit of Ohio State is that most fans don't give a crap about basketball and their football team prints its own money.

Our admin has tarnished Indiana's rep.

5 minutes ago, Hoosierfan1901 said:

Holtmann has been fired 

How much you willing to bet Michigan looks for a new guy at the end of the year too.  What is the likelihood we are standing around here 4 years from now saying, "Man, if we had moved on Woodson sooner we could have had..."

Groundhog Day 

We are about to enter the season where talking heads will express how awful this fan base is.  If only we could be a better group of fans like those at Purdue.

Purdue fans:

48 minutes ago, btownqb said:

"Don't at the type of program  he apparently wants our program to be"

Idk what that means 

 

Don't exist and you left that word out? 

They don't exist basically yes, or they don't exist in near the same numbers.

Basically it boils down to this:  Indiana as an institution continues to make bad decisions and they have done that for basically my entire adult life.  Bob Knight was fired my senior year at IU.  Almost 25 years later I am being told by a bit player on a decade old team who played for a guy who was 3 coaches ago that I just need to accept that this program isn't going to be good anymore.  So I am saying, "OK, fine.  However, here is what that means..."  Pick random dude from the IU football team from the early 2010's.  I am not walking across the street to hear his opinion about IU football because the program hasn't done enough to make me care about talking about that much, let alone listen to anyone about it.  You don't pay multi-million dollar buyouts to get new coaches when you just accept that we are mediocre.  You keep Archie Miller.  You don't fill stadiums with crowds to follow a mediocre team.  You get the 10,000 diehards who are just happy to be there and a few thousand others looking for an event who got a deal on tickets.  Basically the basketball version of Memorial Stadium in the fall.  You don't have 1 million people on Twitter talking about your program.  You have a third of that, if you are lucky.  You don't have people willing to pony up to give 18 year old kids 6 figure salaries.  You don't have a huge media presence touting how "awesome" you are every summer.

If I need to accept that we are just a bunch of mediocre losers then I hope that the University and the cottage industry mouthpieces for that actually get to experience what that means.

TL/DR - In the program Elston is painting a picture of, nobody hears his opinion because half the fans barely remeber who the ---- he is, let alone give a rat's hind end about his opinion.

12 minutes ago, Hoosier987 said:

Woodson’s comment about adding pieces is right. He has to after this lousy year (coaching included). Gunn and Banks really have no choice…they most likely will be gone, whether they transfer on their own, or are nudged out….and that’s a step in the right direction for a roster overhaul.

Just so I am clear, I need to be patient with a coach who is going to turn 66 next month that is going to have to do another complete roster overhaul in year 4.  A coach who after 3 years has 1, 1 incoming freshman committed to join his program.  Can someone explain to me how this isn't basically starting over from scratch and then explain to me why it is somehow better to completely hit reset on year 4 of a 66 year old coach then it is to just go get another guy who actually has time to build a program?

Seriously, Woodson is looking at an almost complete roster overhaul and he has to reboot the system (or lack thereof) that he has been implementing for the past 3 years.  And then we have year one type of discussions all over again next year.  "Well, I have 8 new guys that we need to get playing together.  I just need to get them over the hump...."

And really, I am dumb for thinking it matters.  Everything about Indiana has been inept for most of my adult life.  Elston is probably right, I need to break the habit I developed as a child of being invested in this stuff and just start treating it like IU football has been for me.  Catch it when you can and when they suck, oh well....

6 minutes ago, btownqb said:

Thats a great start! 

 

What in the world does the bold mean? 

There is an entire cottage industry built up around Indiana basketball that only exists at like a handful of places.  Do you see players from Minnesota who played over a decade ago on a podcast with a teammate talking about what Minnesota needs to do?  Who is the Northwestern Todd Leary?  Jim Coyle?  Where is the equivalent to this site, BTB, Peegs, and Rivals fan support for Penn State basketball?  

My point is that all the people that come out of the woodwork complaining about the fans being toxic have no voice if they actually got the fan support they want.  There are about 40,000 people that have showed up for decades and cheered on Indiana football and that hasn't helped a damn thing.  And next to no one talks about it because people who aren't invested don't care